The Firearms Thread (Questions and Discussions)

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Rowan

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Can somebody fire a full-metal jacket with a revolver?
Oh, and is it true that revolvers don't leave cases?

What I'm getting at is the following: suppose your victim has an exit wound--would you immediately think "full-metal jacket bullet"? And suppose there are no case on the ground and you know your killer left in a hurry. Could you infer the gun was a revolver?



Unfortunately my "local" source is not local, but I might see him next summer.
And yes, he said the same thing. (About going to the range. He didn't mind the Glock, though he used to have a S&W while on duty).

PS: Forgive my naivete, I'm here to learn. :D
You're not being naive...that's what the thread is for--to learn! :)

You're correct, a revolver doesn't eject the spent shells (you have to manually empty it). If firing a semiauto, you could police your own brass but that would mean remembering how many shots you fired and taking the time to pick them up, obviously. ;) I'm no ammo expert so I'll leave the details to someone else. I just know what I like and the basics, which isn't much.

Check out this site for more info on the ammo question:
http://world.guns.ru/ammo/am_revolver-e.htm

There are also Glaser Safety rounds (to go along with what Ol Fashioned Girl said): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glaser_Safety_Slug
The bullet design can produce large shallow wounds in flesh while failing to pass through structural barriers thicker than drywall or sheet metal.[4] The rapid energy dump creates high stopping power and the wide wound cavity destroys a large amount of tissue, making the Glaser a deadly round when it strikes a target's torso. At the same time, the fact that it only penetrates at most a few inches, means it will not pass through the target when hit center-mass, nor will it pass through a standard wall. These qualities make it less likely to strike unintended targets, such as people in another room during an indoor shooting. Also, when it strikes a hard surface from which a solid bullet would glance off, it fragments into tiny, light pieces and creates much less ricochet danger.
 
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Ol' Fashioned Girl

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Yes, absolutely. And the cases stay in the cylinder until you dump 'em out and reload.

As for the exit wound, it would be verrrrry nasty if it were caused by a hollow point, because of the condition of the bullet I described above. BUT, if it were a full-metal jacket, it could be messy as well. Depends upon the caliber of the bullet and the powder load as well as the proximity to the gun when it's fired. A .22 caliber might not have enough butt to go all the way through a body - depends on the size of the body. A .45 caliber full metal jacket (aka: FMJ) will make a mess of anyone.
 

BRDurkin

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Awesome, 'bout time a thread like this got started, haha.

I have a variety of firearms myself. They are mostly utilitarian and nothing fancy. Aside from my Ruger .22 LR (for the ground squirrels), I have a Springfield XD-M .40 caliber pistol, a Glock 27 .40 caliber compact pistol, a Mossberg 590A1 12-gauge tactical shotgun, and a DPMS AP-4 7.62x51 rifle.

The Springfield is excellently crafted, but it can be somewhat difficult to handle for just casual use. I like it because of its rugged construction and its high capacity (16+1). That's a lot for .40 S&W!

The Glock 27 is my newest gun, and I've only fire it a few times. Felt recoil is a lot less than the Springfield, and it shoots very accurately. I got it because it's a compact, and it's great for concealed carry. I've made a few minor modifications to it to increase ease of use.

I got the Mossberg 590A1 because it seems to be the closest thing on the market today to the Mossberg 500, which I used while in the Navy. It's a very well-made gun, and can use 2 3/4" or 3" shot shells. Capacity of 5+1. Recoil is always rough with a 12-gauge of course, but the 590A1 has good padding on the stock and is easy to shoot. I was particularly delighted to discover the 1-oz. copper-plated sabot slugs they make for the 12-gauge.

As for my DPMS AP-4, it's basically the same thing as an AR-10. Built like an AR-15, but for 7.62x51 (.308) as opposed to 5.56 (.223). Collapsible stock, 16" barrel. I put a foregrip, EOTech reflex sight, and flashlight on it. Great for medium sniper or CQB.

In the Navy, I used the Colt M-16A3, Beretta M9, Mossberg 500, the M-4 and Mk18 variant, and various machine guns.

That's my experience in firearms. Always eager to learn/experience more, though. ;)
 
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rugcat

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On another note: what are the most common gun-related mistakes you see in movies or read in books?
In books, a silencer on a revolver, although that's less common now that the internet is available.

In film, a silencer that is so effective that the sound is a "phht," quieter than a whisper.

In both, cops who cock the hammer back in stress situations, like while searching a building.
 

Rowan

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In books, a silencer on a revolver, although that's less common now that the internet is available.

In film, a silencer that is so effective that the sound is a "phht," quieter than a whisper.

In both, cops who cock the hammer back in stress situations, like while searching a building.

Oh yeah---this one takes the cake!!!! :D
 

Cath

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Hi folks. I've been asked to sticky this thread, and I'm not going to partly because it's still young and I don't know what use it will be in the longer term, and for other reasons.

However, if you're interested in keeping this thread bookmarked for future reference, I urge you to subscribe using the 'Thread Tools' option at the top right there so you can keep this on your rader.
 

Summonere

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2-cents

carlavii
Question: how quickly does the brass cool down after firing?

That depends, but here's the short answer based upon personal experience: fairly quickly. To elaborate: In warm, dry, weather, most cases chucked out of a semi-auto pistol are fine for picking up mere seconds after they've hit the ground. They'll be warm, but not burny. In fact, I've caught and juggled a few till they were cool enough to not be bothersome (not much time involved at all, and the aluminum cases seem to retain less heat than the brass ones).

Also consider this: I've had hot brass stick behind my ears, glasses, go down my collar, and stick between my toes. It's uncomfortable in a tiny way, but can be ignored. Others don't think so. In Internet parlance, YMMV. (Next time I'm at the range, I'll bring a stopwatch and take notes.)

An empty case chucked from a semi-auto or full-auto rifle (firing rifle rounds, not pistol, as I have no experience with the latter except in .22LR) is simply too hot to catch unless you really want to get burned. After it sits on the ground for a few seconds, though, you can pick one up and it'll usually still be very warm, but not burny.

Can you really get a burn if you get hit by a case flying out of an automatic?

Yes. More from a rifle than a pistol. Those former cases contain more powder, so they get hotter once the "fire" part of "firearm" is applied.

What if it was, say, a bolt action rifle?

Not real sure. Been too long since I've played with the bolt-actions. Here's what I remember, though: that depends. If the empty case isn't immediately ejected, it has time to cool. Even if it is immediately ejected, the process is slower than with a semi- or full-auto, so the case will be slightly cooler form a bolt-action rifle. Assuming an immediate ejection, though, it still may not be cool enough to pick up for a few seconds. At my leisurely target-shooting pace, however, that was rarely, if ever the case.
 

Summonere

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On another note: what are the most common gun-related mistakes you see in movies or read in books?

Glocks going click-click-click when the bad guy, supposedly out of ammo (slide in battery, no less), keeps pulling the trigger.

Semi-autos supposedly out of ammo, but the slide is clearly in battery.

Safeties engaged on pistols used to threaten others. (This seems most commonly observed among 1911 prop guns, in which the safety is not merely engaged, but the hammer isn't cocked, either.)

Semi-auto gunfire, no ejected brass.

Guy runs out of ammo and throws gun at opponent. (If I run out of ammo, I'm keeping my gun so I can bludgeon my opponent with it, or, in the event of finding more ammo, reload.)

Armed person (often LE) corners improperly, gets surprised by bad guy at close quarters, ends up wrestling with him instead of shooting him.

The private armed citizen is a fool, and an incompetent one, at that (especially if female; if male, he's usually a hothead, a redneck, or a bumbling nerd).
 

OneWriter

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Here's a quickie film showing the difference between the FMJ and the hollow point.

Thanks, that was impressive.

Which prompted another question: does a FMJ strait to the heart kill instantaneously or would the victim still "walk" and move for a few minutes before he/she collapses? Do you guys know or is it more of a medical question?

Thanks!!

(hey, Rowan, you should be proud of me: I'm learning tons!!! ;) )
 

Rowan

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Thanks, that was impressive.

Which prompted another question: does a FMJ strait to the heart kill instantaneously or would the victim still "walk" and move for a few minutes before he/she collapses? Do you guys know or is it more of a medical question?

Thanks!!

(hey, Rowan, you should be proud of me: I'm learning tons!!! ;) )

Gotta love hollow points! :)

That's the intent of this thread--for us writers to learn more about firearms so we don't make the common mistakes. And, in an informal environment in which NO question is stupid.

Glad to see you made it here, Summonere. I'm sure there's going to be a lot of rifle questions!!
 

Summonere

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Thanks, that was impressive.

Which prompted another question: does a FMJ strait to the heart kill instantaneously or would the victim still "walk" and move for a few minutes before he/she collapses? Do you guys know or is it more of a medical question?

Thanks!!

(hey, Rowan, you should be proud of me: I'm learning tons!!! ;) )

Nope. Not instantaneously. (Same for any other kinda bullet, too.) Plenty of bad guys who were shot dead wreaked plenty of havoc before finally succumbing to their wound(s). In a local case, a belligerent fellow shot through the heart departed his dispute with his neighbor, walked back inside his trailer house, sat down on his couch, and died.

At least one FBI report claims somewhere around thirteen (or is it thirty? maybe Rowan recalls) seconds of consciousness even in cases where the bad guy's heart is completely destroyed.

To put that in minor perspective, my utterly mediocre split times for a simple rhythm fire drill is about .24 seconds. We'll round that up to .25 for simple math. Suppose a bad guy's heart is clipped right off the aorta by a gunshot. Using 13 seconds as our limited timespan, and .25 seconds between shots, our fictional dead bad guy could still fire 52 rounds before losing consciousness and keeling over. Or, if armed with a knife, he could still charge from 21 feet away and chop the head off the person who shot him. Or he could trip a detonator switch on an explosive vest.
 
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Summonere

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Glad to see you made it here, Summonere. I'm sure there's going to be a lot of rifle questions!!

Glad to be useful, and possibly informative, too (though I reckon Chase and Stanmiller know more about rifles than I).

P.S. to my earlier post, above, the best chance for an instant stop is a CNS (Central Nervous System) hit, either to the brain or spine. (Which is the reason the UK LE fellow, a few years back, shot that suspected bomber so many times in the head after he saw him leap onto a train with a backpack: he wanted him to stop now, not a few quite-possibly-life-altering-for-many seconds from now.)
 

Rowan

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Nope. Not instantaneously. (Same for any other kinda bullet, too.) Plenty of bad guys who were shot dead wreaked plenty of havoc before finally succumbing to their wound(s). In a local case, a belligerent fellow shot through the heart departed his dispute with his neighbor, walked back inside his trailer house, sat down on his couch, and died.

At least one FBI report claims somewhere around thirteen (or is it thirty? maybe Rowan recalls) seconds of consciousness even in cases where the bad guy's heart is completely destroyed.

To put that in minor perspective, my utterly mediocre split times for a simple rhythm fire drill is about .24 seconds. We'll round that up to .25 for simple math. Suppose a bad guy's heart is clipped right off the aorta by a gunshot. Using 13 seconds as our limited timespan, and .25 seconds between shots, our fictional dead bad guy could still fire 52 rounds before losing consciousness and keeling over. Or, if armed with a knife, he could still charge from 21 feet away and chop the head off the person who shot him. Or he could push a trip a detonator switch on an explosive vest.

I'll have to dig that one up...

Here's another snippet from Wikipedia on the subject: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stopping_power
Permanent and temporary cavitation cause very different biological effects. The effects of a permanent cavity are fairly obvious. A hole through the heart will cause loss of pumping efficiency, loss of blood, and eventual cardiac arrest. A hole through the brain can cause instant unconsciousness and will likely kill the recipient. A hole through an arm or leg which hits only muscle, however, will cause a great deal of pain but is unlikely to be fatal, unless one of the large blood vessels (femoral or brachial arteries, for example) is also severed in the process.
 

OneWriter

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Thanks, this is very informative. It keeps prompting new questions! :D
So then, given the different damage inflicted by a hollow point compared to a FMJ, an expert eye would distinguish the two based on the entrance wound, right?
 

Rowan

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Thanks, this is very informative. It keeps prompting new questions! :D
So then, given the different damage inflicted by a hollow point compared to a FMJ, an expert eye would distinguish the two based on the entrance wound, right?

...and exit wound (if applicable)! We haven't even started talking about ballistics testing yet. :)
 

BRDurkin

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P.S. to my earlier post, above, the best chance for an instant stop is a CNS (Central Nervous System) hit, either to the brain or spine. (Which is the reason the UK LE fellow, a few years back, shot that suspected bomber so many times in the head after he saw him leap onto a train with a backpack: he wanted him to stop now, not a few quite-possibly-life-altering-for-many seconds from now.)

All of my training in firearms has been to the effect that, if you want to stop a target IMMEDIATELY, put a round through the eyes/nose area. There's less chance any bones will cause the round to change course and miss the brain. If you can put a round through there, chances are the target will go down instantly.

In movies, the coup-de-gras shot usually ends up higher on the forehead above the bridge of the nose. While a powerful enough round could punch through the skull, some lighter caliber rounds might not. They could just follow the curvature of the skull around and you'll end up with what amounts to a bad flesh wound. This has happened to soldiers many times in combat.

To sum up, what Summonere said is right, you have to hit the CNS (brain) to stop them for sure. Head shot, and if possible, through the the rectangle formed by the eyes and nose.
 

Summonere

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All of my training in firearms has been to the effect that, if you want to stop a target IMMEDIATELY, put a round through the eyes/nose area. There's less chance any bones will cause the round to change course and miss the brain. If you can put a round through there, chances are the target will go down instantly.

Yep. My comments were more general than that and not intended to suggest that anyone trains specifically to target the spine. (Though it was Hackathorn, or one of the other been-there-done-that trainers who, responding to a terrorist takeover of a grounded airliner, dropped one of the terrorists with a single shot from his Browning Hi-Power, which round perforated the villain front-to-back, exiting by way of the spine. Severing the spine was a byproduct of his aiming point, which was center of chest, but the result was immediate and effective. Whichever trainer, the anecdote was in an article about handgun "stopping power.")

As to those noggin shots outside the prescribed zone, I've seen two interesting failures. One was just above center-of-eyebrows on a big fellow who took a .40 caliber thumping from a police officer whose attempt to arrest was resisted. After getting a bullet bounced off his skull, though, the big and formerly resistant fellow decided to comply with the arrest. In another case, a robber took a shot to the eyebrow from a Glock 26 loaded with Speer Gold Dots (124gr. +P, as I recall), at a distance of about six feet. He escaped only to turn up at a hospital a couple of days later, claiming his injuries were received in a car wreck, never mind that bullet lodged over his left ear, which place it had reached after sliding under the skin from the entry point above the eyebrow.
 

Summonere

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I'll have to dig that one up...

Found it.

Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness

Special Agent Urey W. Patrick
Firearms Training Unit
FBI Academy
Quantico, Virginia
July 14, 1989

http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf

The time I erroneously cited earlier (13 – 30 seconds), is actually 10 to 15 seconds, according to the report (last page, under conclusions).
 

Rowan

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Found it.

Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness

Special Agent Urey W. Patrick
Firearms Training Unit
FBI Academy
Quantico, Virginia
July 14, 1989

http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf

The time I erroneously cited earlier (13 – 30 seconds), is actually 10 to 15 seconds, according to the report (last page, under conclusions).

You were close enough! :)

ETA: POST #9

Will keep an ongoing list of "common mistakes" made in movies/books (firearms). Please let me know if you have anything to add by posting! Thanks :)
 
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Cella

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ETA: POST #9

Will keep an ongoing list of "common mistakes" made in movies/books (firearms). Please let me know if you have anything to add by posting! Thanks :)
you've replica written on the side of your gun.


 

Linda Adams

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Here's two questions, since my knowledge is limited to only a few military firearms and maybe some Civil War ones ..

First queston: We have a gate with a couple of uniformed guards--highly trained and expecting trouble. What kind of guns would they have that would signal they're expecting trouble and want to be prepared?

Second question: There's a patrol boat guarding the shoreline. Patrol boat stops a fishing trawler that's gotten too near the shore. What kind of guns would the security patrol have?

In this case, the gate goes to a house owned by a member of the Royal Family. No one knows he's a member of the Royal Family, so the security is an oddity. A spy is trying to figure out who lives in the house. He sees first the patrol boat guards, and then the guard shack and is thinking, "Who is this person? These guards have a lot of firepower."

Thanks!

BTW--for your list in inaccuracies in books, there was one mentioned on these boards sometime ago about a book where the character inserted the bullets into the muzzle to load them.
 
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Kenn

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Linda, I asume you mean the British Royal Family. Hand guns are all but banned in the UK and you don't get security guards toting firearms around unless they work for the government. There is a special detachment of Metropolitan Police Officers that look after the Royal Family. The weapons that police usually use are the Glock 17 and MP5 carbine (I believe).

The patrol boat would be a police one also unless it was Royal Navy.
 

Summonere

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BTW--for your list in inaccuracies in books, there was one mentioned on these boards sometime ago about a book where the character inserted the bullets into the muzzle to load them.

Well, that would work if it were a muzzle-loading firearm, but you'd have to put a powder charge down the barrel firsts. My guess, however, is that it wasn't. :)
 
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