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LolaVelo

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Pro vs semi vs token etc. isn't all just the pay or level of exposure - it's also about genre or kind of writing one does. Different kinds of work have different opportunities.

Also with the Duotrope/Grinder split - if one isn't writing speculative fiction, Duotrope is clearly the better fit with more variety, and far more crossover with the PEN awards/venues listings.
 

Hapax Legomenon

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I've never read anything like my stuff in any publication I've had the chance to read. If anyone can offer any help for who to submit to, I would be much obliged.
 
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Melinda Moore

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I've never read anything like my stuff in any publication I've had the chance to read. If anyone can offer any help for who to submit to, I would be much obliged.

I changed my writing style and content dramatically for short fiction in an attempt to be published. The short stories I still try to write in the manner which I enjoy are mostly rejected while the ones I write in the manner which I perceive to be the current trend are more often accepted.
 

Hapax Legomenon

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I changed my writing style and content dramatically for short fiction in an attempt to be published. The short stories I still try to write in the manner which I enjoy are mostly rejected while the ones I write in the manner which I perceive to be the current trend are more often accepted.

So I should stop submitting all together, it sounds like.
 

zanzjan

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I've never read anything like my stuff in any publication I've had the chance to read. If anyone can offer any help for who to submit to, I would be much obliged.

What do you mean by that, though? Is it a voice/tone thing? Is it a subject/theme thing? Can you define more clearly for us what it is about your stuff that's unusual/unique?

So I should stop submitting all together, it sounds like.

It is the very best way to never get published, yes.
 

Hapax Legomenon

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What do you mean by that, though? Is it a voice/tone thing? Is it a subject/theme thing? Can you define more clearly for us what it is about your stuff that's unusual/unique?

I have a very strong voice. I've had a very strong voice since before I could write. It's not something I can actually change.

People have liked my stories but, I guess, they're not... lyrical? Or whatever it is that all the short stories that get published actually are. My writing is straightforward instead of spidersilk. I mean the people I send it to like it, but it's extremely different from everything I've ever read in any modern short story publication except from maybe Everyday Fiction. Maybe.

It's not that it's unique, it's that it's not trendy.
 

Dani79

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I don't see "trendy" having much to do with it. I have a hard time picturing an editor passing up a wonderful story because it isn't similar enough to what they've already got stacks of. Just the opposite. Every editor wants to be the one who finds that wonderful story that's completely different from everything else out there. You need to keep sending your stories out, or they won't even have a chance to fall in love with what you're offering.

There are plenty of markets known for publishing more transparent prose. DSF runs the whole gamut. F&SF and Asimov's publish more traditional stuff all the time. Clarkesworld publish a massive range of stories and styles. There really isn't any conspiracy to keep certain kinds of voices unpublished and locked away in obscurity. Wow them and you'll sell.
 

Hapax Legomenon

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I don't know why you would do that. I was just saying what sometimes works for me.

I would do it because unlike you, I can't change. Trust me, I have tried. The results make my readers' eyes bleed.

And Dani I think that's the point. My writing is "common", it's exactly what they have stacks and stacks of.
 
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Hanson

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I changed my writing style and content dramatically for short fiction in an attempt to be published. The short stories I still try to write in the manner which I enjoy are mostly rejected while the ones I write in the manner which I perceive to be the current trend are more often accepted.

I don't see "trendy" having much to do with it. I have a hard time picturing an editor passing up a wonderful story because it isn't similar enough to what they've already got stacks of. Just the opposite. Every editor wants to be the one who finds that wonderful story that's completely different from everything else out there. You need to keep sending your stories out, or they won't even have a chance to fall in love with what you're offering.

There are plenty of markets known for publishing more transparent prose. DSF runs the whole gamut. F&SF and Asimov's publish more traditional stuff all the time. Clarkesworld publish a massive range of stories and styles. There really isn't any conspiracy to keep certain kinds of voices unpublished and locked away in obscurity. Wow them and you'll sell.
I think 'trend' and 'trendy' have two different meanings.

But my feeling is that 'trend' in this case (MM's case) is not one of following trends, but rather being able to read current editor's preferences and styles and write accordingly.

It , for me, really is the mark of a professional to write to a particular magazine 'ethos' or style, which does change under different editors.

This is not to say one sacrifices one's self in the process, or that one simply jumps on a particular bandwagon.

What it means, is that one should be savvy to editorial/magazine styles and be able to respond to those styles. Doing so is an excellent tool to enhance one's writing skills, and to enhance the experience of writing. To enter into new approaches, new subject matter, new structures, new writing styles etc, etc is a great way of re-vitalising one's writing experience, imo.
 
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Hapax Legomenon

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I'm looking for places my writing would suit, I'm not, at this point, willing to change to suit.

At this point everything I've read is very similar and very unlike anything I would be able to write. I was wondering if I was just being pointed in the wrong direction. Apparently not.
 

zanzjan

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And Dani I think that's the point. My writing is "common", it's exactly what they have stacks and stacks of.

Voice, if competently done -- whether straightforward or "spidersilk" -- doesn't matter at all as long as it suits the story. It's whether or not the story itself is good and stands out from the rest of the slush pile that makes the difference. What have your beta readers said? Have you posted anything for crit in SYW?
 

Dani79

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@Hap - I would associate "common" with something that has a generic voice and offers absolutely no personal touch to the subject. I've not read a whole lot of your stuff but I don't think that's you. Just keep submitting. Maybe you'll be proven right and nobody will buy your stuff. But if you don't even send it out, they won't even have a chance to accept or reject it.

@Hanson - Agree with that 100%. Maybe you're right and I'm just not getting what's meant by "trend" (and "common," for that matter) in this discussion, but there is such a wide variety of markets and styles out there that I find it a little hard to believe that anyone could write something so different that there isn't an audience for it.
 

Hapax Legomenon

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Voice, if competently done -- whether straightforward or "spidersilk" -- doesn't matter at all as long as it suits the story. It's whether or not the story itself is good and stands out from the rest of the slush pile that makes the difference. What have your beta readers said? Have you posted anything for crit in SYW?

My beta readers like what I have. I can't do SYW because I can't take being drawn and quartered dragged in a hundred directions at once.
 

Hapax Legomenon

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Well, that's a good start. Did they say the voice was problematic?

No. But I've not been able to find anything out there like mine.

I'm new to this whole short story thing and I was thinking that maybe I was just reading the wrong things. I have limited funds so buying as many publications as possible is not an option. I was hoping for some help to find places that accept stories like mine.
 

zanzjan

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No. But I've not been able to find anything out there like mine.

...in terms of voice, again? Because you've said your voice is very common, then said there's nothing else like it out there, and I'm just not understanding. I do know I've seen a huge range of voice across stories in single publications, from very straightforward to totally unique. Heck, Asimov's had a story last year that was in the form of a multiple choice quiz (and it was really good.) I have a hard time believing voice is the problem if your betas haven't had an issue with it, but if you really think that's it, you need to ask your betas directly about it so they know that's something you're concerned about as they read through your work.

I have limited funds so buying as many publications as possible is not an option. I was hoping for some help to find places that accept stories like mine.

And this goes back to not having any idea what sort of stories you write. To analogize, it's like we're all trying to figure out what kind of shoes you're wearing -- are they boots or sneakers? high heels? flip flops? are they sparkly or leather? do they make sound when you walk? -- and you're only telling us you're worried if they'll fit in other people's closets. Without a snapshot in SYW to simplify the process, you'd need to give us more substantive, descriptive information about what your stories are if you want us to point you at markets more specifically than a market engine like duotrope of story grinder can. Then it's up to your story to sell itself to them.
 

Batspan

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You're welcome, Gnome and Stormchild. Rereading that post helped give me perspective on the continued rejections. I have a few stories at the 8 to 10 subs range. That doesn't seem like so much now.

V1c -- Thanks for adding your story. What a coup. Now I have to go look for Goreyesque. A big factor on where I put a publication on my top-down list is how excited I am about it.

Melinda, I'm curious what you changed to increase being published, if you'd care to expand on that.

Hanson, well-put. I trained myself to write to editorial tastes for NF and although I don't know yet that it will work for me in fiction, I do strategize.

I keep reading all my favorite publications and branching out -- for inspiration and for clues to editorial tastes. Reading a lot of what's being published also takes the guesswork out of where to send my stuff. Shimmer's *more* shimmery? I haven't heard of any changeover -- I follow some of the editors on Twitter.

I'm up to 15 exclusive subs out. Editing last month's stories. Finishing them is more challenging than writing them. After putting myself through flash and short story boot camp, I'm glad to be getting back to a novel.
 
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Hapax Legomenon

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...in terms of voice, again? Because you've said your voice is very common, then said there's nothing else like it out there, and I'm just not understanding. I do know I've seen a huge range of voice across stories in single publications, from very straightforward to totally unique. Heck, Asimov's had a story last year that was in the form of a multiple choice quiz (and it was really good.) I have a hard time believing voice is the problem if your betas haven't had an issue with it, but if you really think that's it, you need to ask your betas directly about it so they know that's something you're concerned about as they read through your work.



And this goes back to not having any idea what sort of stories you write. To analogize, it's like we're all trying to figure out what kind of shoes you're wearing -- are they boots or sneakers? high heels? flip flops? are they sparkly or leather? do they make sound when you walk? -- and you're only telling us you're worried if they'll fit in other people's closets. Without a snapshot in SYW to simplify the process, you'd need to give us more substantive, descriptive information about what your stories are if you want us to point you at markets more specifically than a market engine like duotrope of story grinder can. Then it's up to your story to sell itself to them.

I guess I'm assuming that when a publication chooses something to publish, it's because there's something unusual about it that caught its eye, and that things that may be "good" but are not "unusual" enough are just shoved off. So I'm guessing while the voice is not a "problem" that it's a voice that has been seen before too much for them to want anything like it.

Like last I read a volume of Shimmer, there was maybe one short story that was kind-of-sort-of-not-really-but-maybe like anything I'd written. Most of them were "spidersilk" (not that that's a derisivie term, it's just something I can't do.).

I guess maybe I think that everything I write is too "twee," or something, even though nobody's commented on that.

I have a hard time describing what I write and I can't post on SYW for this reason in particular. Dani has read what I wrote, what I sent her was very typical of what I send out. Though I don't want to put her on-the-spot. I'm really, really having a hard time, I'm sorry.
 
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zanzjan

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I guess I'm assuming that when a publication chooses something to publish, it's because there's something unusual about it that caught its eye, and that things that may be "good" but are not "unusual" enough are just shoved off. So I'm guessing while the voice is not a "problem" that it's a voice that has been seen before too much for them to want anything like it.

Yes to the first part, but no to the second. The uniqueness has to be in the story, which is -- hopefully -- a seamless blend of narrative, theme, voice, characterization, etc. The story needs to stand out as a whole, but if done right, even the most unusual -- or the most common -- voice will vanish into the larger telling of the story.

Like last I read a volume of Shimmer, there was maybe one short story that was kind-of-sort-of-not-really-but-maybe like anything I'd written. Most of them were "spidersilk" (not that that's a derisivie term, it's just something I can't do.).

So, there are definitely a few markets that tend to like more ornate language than others (and state as much in their sub guidelines) but again, that's frequently a reflection on the story being told itself, and those tend to be fairly specialized markets in terms of genre, and isn't quite the same thing as voice. Most of the broader SFF markets don't have that emphasis. So it's just a matter of writing the best story you can, getting the best feedback you can, and then sending it out to any fitting market while you work on the next thing. There's also no reason you can't experiment with voice, whether or not you think you can do it -- writing isn't a monolithic and unchanging skillset, but a progression of many small skills as they are exercised. I know I've written stories just to play with aspects of craft, and while they aren't always (or often) successful as cohesive stories, the learning that comes from then find ways to manifest in future work.

I have a hard time describing what I write and I can't post on SYW for this reason in particular. Dani has read what I wrote, what I sent her was very typical of what I send out. Though I don't want to put her on-the-spot.

Yes, we shouldn't put Dani in the spot. But next time you send something out to betas, specifically ask them about voice, and whether it works with the story you're telling. Hopefully that feedback will provide some reassurance, or if not, give a better sense of what you need to pay more attention to as you write.
 

Aggy B.

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SYW can be kind of like the slushpile on crack. But it's also good practice in learning not only what you need to fix but also what you don't need to fix. Because there will always be at least one person who doesn't get what you do and the advice they offer will not be right for your story. Learning how to analyze outside opinions is a good step toward analyzing a market for what they prefer.

It rough getting ripped apart a few times, but there is still value if you can grit your teeth and keep trying. (I've been posting in SYW for a while and my early stuff is still pretty cringeworthy. But the recent stuff is better and that's partly because I just kept hitting back with better work. Which only got better because I kept writing, even when the ideas were stupid or my writing sucked.)

I don't mean to sound unsupportive because I do understand what a beast self-doubt can be, but at some point you gird your loins and send stuff out til it sells or you put it in a drawer and forget about it. But you really can't do both and indulging in all this doubt-speak day after day is unlikely to help.

Right now folks are trying to help you and most of your response is "No, that's too hard." and "I can't change so I'll give up." It's your business whether you persist or not but it seems you're the only one talking yourself out of pushing on.

Aggy, been there, done that, moved on
 

Hapax Legomenon

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SYW can be kind of like the slushpile on crack. But it's also good practice in learning not only what you need to fix but also what you don't need to fix. Because there will always be at least one person who doesn't get what you do and the advice they offer will not be right for your story. Learning how to analyze outside opinions is a good step toward analyzing a market for what they prefer.

It rough getting ripped apart a few times, but there is still value if you can grit your teeth and keep trying. (I've been posting in SYW for a while and my early stuff is still pretty cringeworthy. But the recent stuff is better and that's partly because I just kept hitting back with better work. Which only got better because I kept writing, even when the ideas were stupid or my writing sucked.)

I don't mean to sound unsupportive because I do understand what a beast self-doubt can be, but at some point you gird your loins and send stuff out til it sells or you put it in a drawer and forget about it. But you really can't do both and indulging in all this doubt-speak day after day is unlikely to help.

Right now folks are trying to help you and most of your response is "No, that's too hard." and "I can't change so I'll give up." It's your business whether you persist or not but it seems you're the only one talking yourself out of pushing on.

Aggy, been there, done that, moved on

Well what I'm looking for is specific names of publications of stuff I should try because I would have a much better chance of getting into them than into, say, Shimmer. Because I am extremely new to this stuff and so many publications are behind a paywall and I'm in a position where I can't randomly buy issues hoping that maybe it'll be helpful. Most of the short stories I've read have been anthologies from the library and I can't submit to them because they're not places to submit to. I can't share what I do have, though, because nobody has read my stuff and posting on SYW when you do not have an intent to thoroughly tear your work to shreds is extremely rude. I mean like the only thing I think that would work is if I could send to someone and get suggestions for places to look at but that would be as rude as posting in SYW. So I'm in a huge bind.
 
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Little Ming

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You can ask the critters to be gentle, or if you're looking specifically at voice (or whatever) you can ask for critiques to focus on that.

If you really feel like you can't post your own work, at least consider critiquing others. We say this a lot in SYW because it's true: critiquing others helps you improve your own writing skills. Problems you can't see in your own work or are emotionally attached to will be easier to spot and critique in others.