Single, female protagonists

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WhitePawn

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Over on Twitter, Diana Rowland was complaining about female characters not remaining single which got me thinking and not in a good way.

I also had this discussion with a buddy, re the romance thing in TV shows. He loved the X-files because it didn't go there (until the end, some excuse for Anderson being preggers). He's not liking Fringe because it seems it might go into the romance thing. (God forbid Olivia have short relationships and then stay single). If it's a girl and it's single, it needs a man (or a woman, just so long as she isn't single), such is the prevailing attitude.

I wrote my female protag as a real girl (genre: epic fantasy). She sleeps with three men. One in a brief mention in a single sentence, two active in the book. All are for real, female reasons. She loves none of them. She ends single. I wrote what was natural, then during the plot thread edit phase checked her personal details against that of men, both fictional protags and real life. I saw no great difference with a male storyline in terms of numbers so left it alone.

For one fellow, she sees what he could be instead of what he is. Oops. Moving on. (Such a common female mistake...for examples think: bad boy and loser scenarios.)

She thinks she isn't going to live through the ending (she does, but don't tell her yet). He loves her she doesn't love him back, she takes him anyway because she craves that type of attention and wants something all about her and not the "greater good" even if it's only for a brief moment. Poor guy, but there it is. Women do this often enough, hell, even unto marriage, taking men they don't love. For the whole "center of the universe" thing, even if it's just in one man's eyes. She's a selfish woman, so it's only natural that she does it anyway in spite of knowing how wrong it is. I agree, it's insidious, but it's something a REAL girl would do.

I'm annoyed by the Kvothe's of the fantasy world, and sick unto death of not reading real women, especially in epic fantasy. I won't change my protag in these terms, but I find it disturbing that female characters typically only have sex with men they have a high probability of committing to by the end of a book (or somewhere along the way in a series). Then I think in terms of slut shaming and how such prevalent societal attitude might be an insidious driving force for such a common theme and I find myself grumpy. I had a lovely mug of coffee and now I'm grumpy. The coffee's lukewarm from time spent typing this post which makes me even more grumpy.

I guess I'm trying to provoke a discussion on the topic. Also, am I missing great epic fantasy series with real female protags? Are there epic fantasy books out there with real female protags? If so, let me know, I'd like to read them. (NOT urban fantasy...epic fantasy)

Martin is better than most, yes, but he's not quite there and I can't read ASOIAF in perpetuity.
 
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I think that's nothing more than injecting real life into a story. I agree that it's often like you said, this is a single female who obviously needs that second half to be complete (or do the things she can't) so let's toss one in.

My high fantasy (epic if you will) focuses on four characters and one of the plot arcs is the growth of the characters. Two are single, the main main character (female or a maevin) and one of the men (saehrns as I named them). She doesn't have that male partner (soul mate) through the story although there is a romantic interlude. He has partners, but none are ever adventuring partners. The four friends are the adventurers.

So there ARE stories out there like that. Probably why the agents/publishers never picked them up. Not enough soap opera in them.
 

djunamod

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I think that many readers (women and men) would like to see more single women (and men, for that matter) remain single in books. I know I would. I recently did a lot of research into women's fiction (because that's part of the genre I'm writing in) and I have to admit that finding that almost every single novel in this genre (and I'm not talking about ones that were dubbed as part of the romance genre) had some kind of romantic relationship going on. I have nothing against romance, but it's just not what I'm interested in. I'm much more interested in finding female (and male) protagonists who remain single, regardless of what kind of love life they have in the novel.

In my own novels, my protagonists remain single throughout the novel. Some have romantic attachments (for example, being married or living with a boyfriend/girlfriend), but equal weight is given to other relationships as well (like those with friends and family). A romantic attachment is not one of the permeating subplots of the novels.

Djuna
 

Osulagh

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Upon reflection, outside of romance genre/sub-genres or stories geared towards romance that force characters together like opposing magnets, I remember as many single male characters as single female characters. Actually, I could say the "strong, independent female" movement has made a big change in this.

On a side note: It doesn't sound like your character is "real", but more like an adult with unrequited love pointed towards her.
 

Buffysquirrel

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What's real for one reader may not be for the next. I've lost count of the times I've read female characters with whom I have not one point of identification. Shoes? What's the thing with shoes? *is baffled*
 

Jamesaritchie

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Over on Twitter, Diana Rowland was complaining about female characters not remaining single which got me thinking and not in a good way.

I also had this discussion with a buddy, re the romance thing in TV shows. He loved the X-files because it didn't go there (until the end, some excuse for Anderson being preggers). He's not liking Fringe because it seems it might go into the romance thing. (God forbid Olivia have short relationships and then stay single). If it's a girl and it's single, it needs a man (or a woman, just so long as she isn't single), such is the prevailing attitude.

I wrote my female protag as a real girl (genre: epic fantasy). She sleeps with three men. One in a brief mention in a single sentence, two active in the book. All are for real, female reasons. She loves none of them. She ends single. I wrote what was natural, then during the plot thread edit phase checked her personal details against that of men, both fictional protags and real life. I saw no great difference with a male storyline in terms of numbers so left it alone.

For one fellow, she sees what he could be instead of what he is. Oops. Moving on. (Such a common female mistake...for examples think: bad boy and loser scenarios.)

She thinks she isn't going to live through the ending (she does, but don't tell her yet). He loves her she doesn't love him back, she takes him anyway because she craves that type of attention and wants something all about her and not the "greater good" even if it's only for a brief moment. Poor guy, but there it is. Women do this often enough, hell, even unto marriage, taking men they don't love. For the whole "center of the universe" thing, even if it's just in one man's eyes. She's a selfish woman, so it's only natural that she does it anyway in spite of knowing how wrong it is. I agree, it's insidious, but it's something a REAL girl would do.

I'm annoyed by the Kvothe's of the fantasy world, and sick unto death of not reading real women, especially in epic fantasy. I won't change my protag in these terms, but I find it disturbing that female characters typically only have sex with men they have a high probability of committing to by the end of a book (or somewhere along the way in a series). Then I think in terms of slut shaming and how such prevalent societal attitude might be an insidious driving force for such a common theme and I find myself grumpy. I had a lovely mug of coffee and now I'm grumpy. The coffee's lukewarm from time spent typing this post which makes me even more grumpy.

I guess I'm trying to provoke a discussion on the topic. Also, am I missing great epic fantasy series with real female protags? Are there epic fantasy books out there with real female protags? If so, let me know, I'd like to read them. (NOT urban fantasy...epic fantasy)

Martin is better than most, yes, but he's not quite there and I can't read ASOIAF in perpetuity.

Those are all things SOME real women would do, and naturalist to only SOME women, certainly not all, thank God.

Real women do get married. Real women do avoid sleeping with more than one man. Real women are unslefish, and real women do marry for love.

Same with men. Of course, when a man sleeps around in a novel, aren't the women he's sleeping with sleeping around, too?

If that's the kind of female protagonist you want, write her. It's not to my taste, but you can't please everyone. I happen to like male protagonists who are good guys, too.
 

noranne

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Yes, this is something that was actually in my mind for my MS4. The MC is a female who is widowed in the first chapter. She quickly starts sleeping with another guy to help her cope with the loss of her beloved husband. As events unfold, she finds her new "relationship" is at odds with what she wants to accomplish and so she ends it. For the rest of the book she has no desire to entangle herself further with any male characters.

To me, that seemed like a realistic woman. She swears, she cries, she fucks, she saves the galaxy. Not sure how it will seem to others.

Those are all things SOME real women would do, and naturalist to only SOME women, certainly not all, thank God.

Oh yes, Lord save us from the sloots! :gaah:
 

SamCoulson

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Last weekend I finally got around to watching Pacific Rim with my 11-year old daughter, though not a great movie on it's own, I actually really enjoyed part of the ending where the two (young and attractive) male and female MC's end up in an exhausted embrace rather than some big romantic kiss or forced post-epic-battle sexy-time.

As a writer and a parent of a daughter, I really enjoyed the fact that the writers didn't feel the need to sexualize the ending.

I can't think of any good examples in epic/high fantasy where the female leads are not stuck in some kind of romantic entanglements that more-or-less define the characters. And that's a shame. Sometimes sex/romance is part of a character, other times it isn't--and it shouldn't be forced into the story. So write your character's how they are.
 

pandaponies

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I would probably write some single female characters if I weren't so busy writing lesbians. :p I absolutely agree that it's really important to portray in fiction that having a partner isn't everything, and not everyone has or WANTS a partner or will find one, and that's okay

(but my need for lesbian representation that isn't a) voyeuristic b) boring mainstream introspection or c) crushingly depressing... tends to overrule XD)
 

Squids

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My main protag is a single female, and she will remain that way. Inserting a romance in there would be difficult at best, and I have no desire to force it.
 

TheWordsmith

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I'm still trying to come to grips with the OP's concept of 'real women'. Anytime you start lumping everyone of one group, class, or identity into one big ball of generalities, you start running into trouble. ALL women are not in need of a partnering anymore than ALL men are in need of getting laid every day, night, afternoon... Yadda, yadda, yadda. SOME women have enough self-awareness and confidence to be able to simply BE without some appendage to make them 'complete'. (Get your minds out of the gutter. Not THAT appendage!)
And - sometimes, just sometimes - maybe men are actually looking for one serious relationship.
So, to stereotype all women as either the needy or the slut puppy is doing all of them a grave disservice. I think, if a serious study were done, we'd discover that most people, men and women, fall somewhere between the extremes.
I have an FBI special agent (male) who, while not actually misogynistic, would choose not to work with "some Barbie doll who gets hysterical every time she breaks a nail." But, when his partner is killed, you guessed it, he is paired up with a woman. And not just any woman. She is, for all intents and purposes, the female version of himself! And, while these two, by the end of the story, would willingly die for one another, they will never... I repeat... NEVER be a romantic 'item'. Bedded? Oh helz yes. But being romantic partners? Never happen.
And, of course, I've written stories that DO end up in that kind of a paired up, HEA kind of finish. And, just like our stories are not alike, neither are 'real' people. And we shouldn't try to force them to fit in some artificial mold.
 
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soapdish

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My MC starts out just having come out of a relationship that she realizes was forced and not right for her (though he was a fine guy).

She stays single for the entire rest of the book. But she is still sexually active.

What I struggle with is the notion that she's somehow "broken" or "defective" because she either doesn't want a relationship, or can't seem to maintain a relationship. This is often the case in romance books, I think, more so than other genres? And though I don't consider my book to be a romance, I think an argument could be made that it is.

I desperately want to convey that monogamy doesn't equal happiness or rightness, but in the end, I have her taking a break from her promiscuous lifestyle because she's realized she was using her one night stands as distractions to help her forget (via reliving over and over again) about a sexual incident in her past that was life changing.

Anyway...it still keeps reading like the message is "Once you 'fix yourself', you can stop being a slut and focus on the path to finding 'the one' some day". And that's not what I'm trying to say. :Headbang:

I'm not really sure if I'm asking a question or not. :tongue But that's my contribution to the topic of slut shaming and monogamy in fiction.
 

CheG

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I don't like that so many novels, of various genres HAVE to have a mandatory romance for it's single female lead. Women have more going on then just men.

Men in epic fantasy get to run around and save the world and remain single, but a woman can't do it without a man.
 

CrastersBabies

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I think arguing for one is going to completely alienate the other. Women in this world, right now, are not all "single" or all "married" or all "engaged" or all "dating a lot" or all "looking to hook up." A woman is not her sexual appetite. A woman is not her marital status. A woman is not her romantic inclinations.

Sometimes romance works. Sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes it's completely unnecessary in a story. I think it's up to the writer to discern that, though.
 

noranne

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I'm still trying to come to grips with the OP's concept of 'real women'. Anytime you start lumping everyone of one group, class, or identity into one big ball of generalities, you start running into trouble. ALL women are not in need of a partnering anymore than ALL men are in need of getting laid every day, night, afternoon... Yadda, yadda, yadda. SOME women have enough self-awareness and confidence to be able to simply BE without some appendage to make them 'complete'. (Get your minds out of the gutter. Not THAT appendage!)
And - sometimes, just sometimes - maybe men are actually looking for one serious relationship.
So, to stereotype all women as either the needy or the slut puppy is doing all of them a grave disservice. I think, if a serious study were done, we'd discover that most people, men and women, fall somewhere between the extremes.
I have an FBI special agent (male) who, while not actually misogynistic, would choose not to work with "some Barbie doll who gets hysterical every time she breaks a nail." But, when his partner is killed, you guessed it, he is paired up with a woman. And not just any woman. She is, for all intents and purposes, the female version of himself! And, while these two, by the end of the story, would willingly die for one another, they will never... I repeat... NEVER be a romantic 'item'. Bedded? Oh helz yes. But being romantic partners? Never happen.
And, of course, I've written stories that DO end up in that kind of a paired up, HEA kind of finish. And, just like our stories are not alike, neither are 'real' people. And we shouldn't try to force them to fit in some artificial mold.

I didn't think the OP was saying that all women are a certain way at all. In fact the opposite. Women are so varied--so why do we keep seeing the same thing over and over? Women who don't partner up are just as real as women who do!
 

Wilde_at_heart

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In one WIP of mine where the MC is single at the end, I realised about halfway through the first draft that the 'cult' she gets lured into is a bit of a metaphor about marriage :D
 

IdrisG

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Now that I think about it, I rarely bother with pairings when I'm writing women unless the romance is the point of the story itself. If the story is about other things, say, some insidious plot to bring down the Free World as she knows it, I can only rarely be bothered. There's just so many things to worry about that a love affair--especially one not already in progress when the story begins--seems quite an inane thing to focus on. I've seen it happen in quite a lot of YA series, but I'm just never a fan of that, no less because the pat romantic endings given to female characters seem so unsatisfying.
 

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I've never been the kind of writer that MAKES my characters. For some reason, I think of them, almost as real people. I know their personality, their main goal, their basic story. From there, I can tweak the details: physical description, quirks, and all the other silly things that make us human. So for me, when my character falls in love...that's natural. Maybe that's a reflection of me. I am in love with people. I love to love. Don't get me wrong, being single is empowering and awesome, but loving a person is so much more beautiful than that, in my opinion. So does it make me less real? Because I fall in love easily? I'm not scared to be single. I don't think writers are scared to make their characters end up single. I think for most people it is what feels real, to write people who end up in love. That is the reason for the prevalence. If your opinion of real is something different, maybe it's not a conspiracy to show women as incapable of being alone. I can't speak for everyone, naturally, but I just know that (while none of my character's end up alone) falling in love is what feels natural, what the character just does. I do have one character that was in love. Her lover died, and despite the relationship she has with another, they don't end up happily ever after. I don't know if that qualifies...
 

Roxxsmom

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I hadn't really noticed a lack of romantic endings for male characters in traditional fantasy either, though of course it depends on the story. The annoying bit is when said woman isn't a character in her own right, but only seems to exist to be a "reward" for the man's awesomeness, and when the only reason for his attraction to her seems to be her beauty.

But I loves me a good romantic arc. There. I've admitted it. This seems to be a viewpoint that's unpopular with both genders these days. But for me, those passionate feelings, that connection with another person who is both lover and best friend, is a very emotionally compelling experience that certainly helps establish or raise stakes for characters of both genders. I never gave the prevalence of romantic arcs much thought, or took it to mean that women (or men) must be in a relationship to be complete. Simply that most people fall in love sooner or later, and when they do, well, it's pretty cool (and can also lead them to have conflicted loyalties and/or to do some strange and interesting things).

This doesn't mean I think that all characters (male or female) "need" a whatever gender partner they fancy to be complete or anything like that. Just that most single folks, at the back of their mind, are receptive to meeting the right person if they come along. Or even if they aren't, someone compelling comes along at an inconvenient time, well, people often find a way to make it work anyway.

But this doesn't mean there aren't aromantic people out there, or that all relationships have to be true love, or last forever, or be monogamous, or that there can't be good stories where for whatever reason, love just doesn't present itself, or that someone can't be happily single and receptive to love when and if it happens without needing it. It's really down to what's organic to the characters and their situation. There are plenty of potential stories that center around other kinds of intense emotions and relationships--friendship, familial, comrades in arms, or whatever.
 

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I actually have an idea set aside where the main female has a booty call list of guys. She's a strong woman not looking for attachment, but occasionally wants a romp. But I also have female leads that are in a relationship (be it dating or married). In that case, their relationship is only a small part of their life and not the very core of their existence.
 

RightHoJeeves

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I don't like that so many novels, of various genres HAVE to have a mandatory romance for it's single female lead. Women have more going on then just men.

Men in epic fantasy get to run around and save the world and remain single, but a woman can't do it without a man.

So true. This is why I really try to avoid any sort of romance in things I write.
 

noranne

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Now I'm thinking about the romance in all my books.

MS1: MC is 17 yo female, has pretty standard romance with male MC (who is in his 20s IIRC, it's been a loong time). 3rd POV is from a 28 yo married woman with kids.

MS2: MCs are twin girls (possibly also 17?). The main cast involves 2 (non twin) brothers and another male. Some complicated entangling going on, as one initial pairing ends when the guy is killed off, and the one twin is in love with her friend who loves the other twin...but in the end they are both paired off with the surviving 2 men.

MS3: MCs are a 17 yo boy (what is it with me and 17 yo?!?!) and a 23 yo woman. They are like bro/sis mostly. There is a 3rd POV from a 47 yo woman who has a crush on the female MC, but nothing comes of that (except for motivation to send the younger woman away).

MS4: MC is the widowed 29 yo woman described above. The other 2 POVs are male, and one has a romantic subplot with a non-main character that ends poorly.

MS5: MC is a 4000 yo male god who loves a good dalliance with mortal women. First time he meets a goddess who isn't his mother/sister, he is smitten. They become friends and he falls for her hard, but she never reciprocates.

Sooo, I guess I'm kind of a pessimist about giving any of my characters happy relationships??
 

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As a woman who has been happily in a monogamous relationship for the past 25 years, I do kind of wonder where that idea that resisting romantic attachment is a sign of strength (for women at least) has come from?

I guess I'm trying to provoke a discussion on the topic. Also, am I missing great epic fantasy series with real female protags? Are there epic fantasy books out there with real female protags? If so, let me know, I'd like to read them. (NOT urban fantasy...epic fantasy)

There were a fair number back in the 80s and 90s, but the number seems to have fallen off in recent years, though that might be a matter of perception. There actually are a lot of women writing in the field, both new and ones who have been for decades, but finding books by unfamiliar authors seems to be more challenging that it once was (thanks to the decline of brick and mortar stores). Many of the bestselling epic fantasy writers right now are men. though there are still a ton of women writing epic fantasy. Maybe it's because of the Grimdark fad (though some books written by women that could qualify as grimdark seem to get left off the lists).

Some I can think of are:

Elizabeth Moon's Paksenarrion books.
Anne Bishop's books
Amanda Downum's Necromancer books
Some of Kate Elliott's books
Some of Carol Berg's stuff
Barbara Hambley's Winterlands saga (though a married couple is central to the story--interestingly, the female protagonist struggles a lot with her need to maintain her autonomy as a mage and her commitment to her family)
NK Jemison's books
Mercedes Lackey's Velgarth books (though they often contain a romantic arc that's important to the plot)
Glenda Larke's Havenstar

Here's a list of female epic fantasy authors. Not all the books have female leads, of course, but some of them do (or they have a number of characters, some of whom are women).

Here's another list, which focuses on books with important female characters.

So there ARE stories out there like that. Probably why the agents/publishers never picked them up. Not enough soap opera in them.

Sounds like people like me (hopeless romantics who like love stories to be interwoven into plots) are in a definite minority, because whenever a thread starts up on this, opinions are running something like 10:1 against love (most people seem to think it's distracting, unrealistic, or demeaning to female characters). So it's not clear to me why agents and editors would be hostile to stories that lack romantic arcs that end on a traditionally satisfying (since that's actually unsatisfying to most people) note.

Kind of makes me feel scared for my own novel, as there is a nice love story woven into it (though if anyone "needs" the relationship, it's the guy). None of my readers has complained, but ... gulp :(
 
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Mr Flibble

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As a woman who has been happily in a monogamous relationship for the past 25 years, I do kind of wonder where that idea that resisting romantic attachment is a sign of strength has come from?


Me too

Having a relationship does not equal "not strong woman". Ask my husband.:D

But yes, men do tend to "get away" with not having to have a relationship more.

Then again I can name a butt load of women in fantasy who don't (sadly mostly by one author) It would be nice if it wasn't rare. But having a romantic relationship does not equal not strong ( or I can point you out a load of male characters who presumably are not strong because they have an other half..)

Plenty of strong women in real life have relationships. It's whether they are just a cardboard character to start with is the issue (or they stop being strong when in the relationship).

It;s how you write it. Not what the situation is.
 
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