'Boys aren't reading' because the children's book market is run by women??

mirandashell said:

If boys learn to read and then choose not to, that's their choice and no-one has come up with a foolproof way of making them read. As I've said several times, this conversation has been going on for years. But not teaching them to read so they aren't literate is a whole different subject.

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This feels dangerously close to "Girls just don't like math and science, so that's why they're underrepresented in STEM, and there's nothing we can do about that." It's nonsense. There's no biological imperative to dislike reading on the Y chromosone. In my parents generation in the Soviet Union, reading fiction was the primary form of entertainment, and boys read just as much and as eagerly as girls.

If there's a significant gendered schism on an activity other than 'giving birth', it's almost certainly due to cultural forces. When the activity is as vital as reading, I think it's important to consider it, and just throwing our hands up and saying "Boys just don't read, that's their choice, what are you gonna do?" feels uncomfortably defeatist. Just because there's no foolproof solution to encouraging boys to read more doesn't mean we should give up, and it definitely doesn't mean we should shut down conversations on the subject.

If boys are wired to like reading less than girls, why is the literary canon dominated by men rather than women?

In many times and cultures, reading and writing were activities for men, and women weren't even taught.

Let's not blame biology. She didn't do it.

Certainly people are entitled to their choices, but when it trends across our culture, there is worth in asking why.

I asked my (kid) brother about this. His answer: "We DO read. You just don't see us 'cause we're superspies."

Apparently this means his friends are reading... they just don't do it when other people might find out about it.

mirandashell said:

So it's not the fault of women in the industry, it's the fault of fathers?

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mirandashell said:

As for role models, it's just a surprise that something is blamed on their fathers. 99.9% of the time, it's the fault of their mothers. Even when it isn't.....

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I think I started the role model discussion, and I don't remember saying fathers. I think I said the men in a boy's life. Maybe that should be extended to males so it includes older boys. The entire point was that if one of the issues holding boys back in reading is that they feel like it's not manly enough or it's too girly (mentioned in so many articles and multiple times in this thread, and something I've heard in other contexts as well), then they're getting that attitude from somewhere and the big influences on boys regarding what boys and men do are the older boys and men in their lives. How would a boy who was surrounded by men who read (note the plural men and the words surrounded by) get the idea reading was girly?

In my own personal experience reading wasn't held as being girly, though there was a bit of that I suppose.

Much more so it was just something that in noways compared to playing sports or hanging out with friends or chasing after girls, etc. In terms of leisurely pastimes it was always ranked low and if you begged to differ you were considered odd. "What's up with him?"

ps "Male role models," seem like a good idea. Actually just anyone period who is into reading would be a good influence on a kid.

jlstov said:

Hollywood said the same thing - the same year Avatar became the highest grossing movie of all time. Their argument was that people weren't going to the movies.

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Once you've take in account ticket price variation over time, the highest grossing movie of all times is actually... Gone With The Wind. And by the same metric, Avatar actually was less successful than Titanic.

There is very real, ongoing decline of the cinematic industry, and that has been going on for dedaces —hidden only by the fact that Hollywood measures its movies' success in terms of gross box office product, which give numbers that can only be meaningfully comparated within the same year (because between différent years, there is inflation, ticket price changes, but also population changes, so you're effectively comparing apples to oranges).

As a mother of two teenagers, (girl 16, boy 14) I really don't see too much difference in their reading habits based wholly on gender. Sure, they have required reading for school, but for them to pick up a book to read just for enjoyment- nope.

Now their cell phones are a different story.

jlstov said:

I think all arts ask this question periodically - Basically "How can we make more money? Why are we loosing or not reaching a group of untapped cash?"

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Yep - I'd agree with that. It turns out to be quite difficult to target 'people who don't read much', though. There are lots of different reasons kids might not read with a variety of different remedies operating with various levels of effectiveness. If it's about being slightly below the average reading level, there are specialist solutions for that and different kinds of things to read. If it's about being more captivated by video games, I've seen people try to produce work which is more gamelike, but it doesn't seem to work very well (hell, I've just been playing Titanfall for an hour. It's not going to work on the page.)

Hollywood said the same thing - the same year Avatar became the highest grossing movie of all time. Their argument was that people weren't going to the movies.

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I think it's true that Hollywood often chases the biggest audience it thinks it can get in a single package - so there's a lot of reboots and remakes and sequels, based on previously successful IP.

Ultimately, the problem is not with the die-hards but with those who rarely use a service/buy/etc. How do you get a person to go to the movies VS waiting on the movie to come out on DVD? How do you get a person to buy a song vs listen to it a few times on youtube/radio? How do you get those who would rather watch a movie to read?

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It's not easy, and I'm not sure the most obvious solution is always the right one. Why don't boys read? Get men to pick the books. How to get kids who prefer movies to read? Make books more like movies. They sound like neat answers but, hmmm. Not sure.

A quick search for “Reluctant Reader Books” turns up books like Percy Jackson, Alex Rider, Diary of a Wimpy Kid, and others which are filled with ACTION or every page is loaded with COMEDY, etc.

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I used to work on the Alex Rider series at the height of their popularity. Anthony Horowitz was a midlist author before he wrote Stormbreaker. He had written at least a dozen MG novels, aimed fairly broadly at boys, and none of them had quite 'hit'. There was a series called Groosham Grange, which was like a Munsters-themed Harry Potter - a lot of fun, but it didn't land quite well enough. (The sequel, The Unholy Grail, interestingly prefigures Goblet of Fire.) There was a Raymond Chandler-inflected comedy thriller series called The Diamond Brothers, which was more successful and got a minor film adaptation. And a few standalone stories that were kinda Dahl-esque, like Granny and The Swap (IIRC.)

Alex Rider was a bit of a swerve. He toned down the comedy and the horror elements, but left tinges here and there as appropriate. He riffed off the structure and the trappings of James Bond and deftly found child-friendly parallels. It's really clever stuff, and it's more than the action and explosions - it's the confident, satisfying storytelling, the cast of characters, the protagonist.

I've seen stuff try to replicate the success of Alex Rider and not manage it. The competition has all the explosions and violence and exotic locations, but it doesn't hang together as well. Ditto for, on a grander scale, Harry Potter. Sometimes everything just clicks. Subsequently, Anthony has written a series of horror-themed adventures, and while they showcase his skill with plotting, his knack for an action scene, etc etc, they haven't had quite the same impact.

And so I don't think it's possible to reduce this to a set of initial conditions or to a formula - must have a male author, author must have particular skills, book must contain explosions, must limit emotional exposure. (Not that I'm saying that's what you're asking, just taking the argument to a logical extreme.) I think we just have to look at the books we get sent and pick the ones that seem best, whoever we are and whoever wrote them. The one that conquers the world and ripples right out from the core readership to those reluctant readers probably won't be the one we expected.

Torgo said:

Yep - I'd agree with that. It turns out to be quite difficult to target 'people who don't read much', though.

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Yeah. I don't think the children's book publishers can really answer this problem on their own. I think it requires some shift in cultural expectations.

Though I do think changing the approach to gendered marketing would be a helpful start.

By gendered marketing, do you mean guns and combat boots for boys. And pink fluffy stuff for girls?

Or do you mean something different? I know there are plenty of girls that play video game for example. And then of course I loved reading. (Of course the whole brain gender thing complicates things.)

JustSarah said:

By gendered marketing, do you mean guns and combat boots for boys. And pink fluffy stuff for girls?

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Yeah, and I mean dismantling the idea the these books are for boys and these books are for girls, and marketing them that way.

By "dismantle," I don't necessarily mean throw it out entirely, though I think that should be the end goal.

I can understand why marketing specifically to certain demographics can be effective, and some people may not think to pick up the book otherwise, because otherwise they may not know it's for them.

But I think boys and girls can enjoy most books equally. Or at least, they should have equal opportunity to do so. So market to both of boys and girls, whether you think that takes one cover, or two.

This feels dangerously close to "Girls just don't like math and science, so that's why they're underrepresented in STEM, and there's nothing we can do about that." It's nonsense. There's no biological imperative to dislike reading on the Y chromosone. In my parents generation in the Soviet Union, reading fiction was the primary form of entertainment, and boys read just as much and as eagerly as girls.

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That's not what I wrote!

Please, do me a favour. Read what I actually wrote, not what you assume I wrote. Maybe then this discussion will stop going around in circles.

Question - what are teaching kids to read books like these days? How much fun are they?

I remember reading a story by a school inspector faced with a eight year old boy - I think it was from the 1960s - who had just about learnt his letters and when the inspector asked him questions about reading the boy replied "I'd read fine if it wasn't for this bloody Little Red Hen". The teacher had a set of books, the kids had to work through them in order and until the boy completed the Little Red Hen he wasn't getting another book.

Also - do classrooms have books to borrow in them? We did at my school on a shelf by the black board.

We also used to have story reading sessions - sometimes all the kids in the school in the main hall and the headmaster did the reading - with gestures. Rudyard Kipling was one, also I seem to remember ripping yarn type stories of sea adventure and the like.

Kids also were asked to bring in books and read bits of their favourite books - eventually Flower Fairies of the Garden was banned because it turned up every reading session and the teacher had had enough.

see, what irritates me about this is that when it's the other way around - say, girls not taking up science, or there being fewer women CEO's - someone's always there piping up with "well, girls are just wired differently, and boys are better at science, what's the fuss?" or "well, women don't want to be CEO's, they want to work part time and have kids, the glass ceiling is a myth." But when boys suddenly start doing worse at school, or reading less, it's a BIG PROBLEM. It must be the feminisation of education! (that's an actual argument I've seen used frequently, btw) or women controlling fiction!

The problem is, it's all cultural. It's been pointed out in this thread a few times, but our culture pretty much discourages boys to read in a whole host of ways, not least by suggesting they only ought to read 'adventure tales' or 'books about pirates' - why on earth are we telling kids what they should read based on their gender?

Every reluctant reader I've ever talked to, male or female, when I was growing up didn't read because "reading was work." They either had trouble with it or associated reading with restrictive schoolwork. It probably didn't help that most of the books we read for school were horribly depressing, and non-literary books were discouraged. Changing how schools approach reading would do a lot toward helping reluctant readers, I think.

Also, apparently in Japan there are "light novels," which are basically the Japanese equivalent of YA. These light novels have a few pictures, but are basically novels, as far as I can tell. They are gendered, with some marketed to males and some to females, but it seems apparent that they sell very well, and at least in that niche of light novel fans, there is no wide gender divide, at least judging from how many of each gendered category sell.

Just more evidence that what we're seeing with teens here in the west is cultural, I suppose.

"the vast majority of reviews of children’s books in national newspapers, including The Times, were by women."

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And boys choose what to read based on book reviews in national newspapers?

Some kids read and some don't. In my family, it's my son who reads, though I very much doubt he's ever read a book review in a national newspaper. My daughter isn't interested, by and large. Same upbringing, same family influence, same access to books (of a wide range of genres).

A.P.M. said:

.
Also, apparently in Japan there are "light novels," which are basically the Japanese equivalent of YA. These light novels have a few pictures, but are basically novels, as far as I can tell. They are gendered, with some marketed to males and some to females, but it seems apparent that they sell very well, and at least in that niche of light novel fans, there is no wide gender divide, at least judging from how many of each gendered category sell.

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I don't know if one can really say that "light novels" have an equivalent to English books. I guess they're mostly marketed at a similar audiences but the reasoning for light novels existing and the reasoning for YA existing are different (aside from to make money, of course).

A.P.M. said:

Every reluctant reader I've ever talked to, male or female, when I was growing up didn't read because "reading was work." They either had trouble with it or associated reading with restrictive schoolwork. It probably didn't help that most of the books we read for school were horribly depressing, and non-literary books were discouraged. Changing how schools approach reading would do a lot toward helping reluctant readers, I think.

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Yep. I almost wound up being one of those people who grew up with a dislike for books too.

If my librarian hadn't introduced me to some awesome genre fic stories I'd have grown up associating books with intense mental effort and mind-numbing boredom.

I think it would be wisest to introduce students to a range of different genres so they can come to understand just how many books there are out there and find their niche. Those who like lit-fic will gravitate toward lit-fic, those who don't won't, and everyone will realise that books are just as entertaining as games and movies.

My casual take on things, not having read this entire thread: More than girls, a boy needs someone to direct his reading steps after he's tired of MG because I don't think the path is as obvious.

When I think of my decent suburban library (not an affluent suburb, and the schools perform at national average or below), if I were a boy aging out of MG, I'd feel lost. There is a teen section that's semi-private, but by and large the covers on the books, the titles, and yes, the high majority of female authors would make me uncomfortable choosing books there. We say it about diversity: if persons of nonwhite ethnicities don't see themselves represented in books, how are they supposed to feel part of the reading culture? My guess is this is true for teen boys too, esp. if there's no male reading role models in his life. And if I can't find much I identify with in the teen section, where do I go to find reading material? The rest of the library is even more overwhelming. And there are no bookstores for miles, which are also intimidating to the uninitiated. So that leaves school, and how embarassing is it to need a librarian's help to find books, esp. when that librarian is almost surely a woman? Again, not a big deal in elementary school (reading MG), but as a teen? Much easier to forget it.

And has anyone mentioned the newest time-wasting temptation for this generation: online p0rn? *sigh* No bookstores anywhere within walking distance, but countless free websites for that.

RaggedEdge said:

So that leaves school, and how embarassing is it to need a librarian's help to find books, esp. when that librarian is almost surely a woman?

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Why should it be embarrassing to ask a librarian for help?

My son is 11 and loves to read, but is like me.us He only wants to read what captures his interest. Wow, it takes a long time to post with a wii remote!

kuwisdelu said:

Why should it be embarrassing to ask a librarian for help?

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Maybe it's just my introverted nature and that of my children's, but I have observed this. It goes along with the idea that you're a kiss-up or a goody-goody or a nerd if you respond in class. At least in average performing schools, which is what I'm familiar with for both my upbringing and that of my children's. For a span of time in adolescence, there's often a self-consciousness about appearing nerdy or even engaged in learning. Those boys who already know they love to read and will seek guidance as teens are not at issue in this discussion, right? What is are the boys who don't already have that love or can't find their way back to it during adolescence.

I like this blog post by Joe Craig on the subject, which was mentioned in the comments section of the article cited by the OP. And here is another by Craig about the effect of book cover art on his adolescent self.

I also think it's important, as Craig says, to encourage boys to regard nonfiction as a fine alternative to fiction. My now 18yo son much preferred nonfiction, and he's a science whiz because of extensive reading on the subject in his youth. But still, most of what he read I brought into the house for him. Usborne books were an early favorite - lots of technical explanations for science and even history.

From the Goodreads site and recommendation sites online, it looks like the nerdy/geeky teen guys are into sci-fi/fantasy fiction more on the adult side rather than the YA side, which seems to be dominated by the Twilight's and the Hunger Games that are more appealing to teen girls (probably because of the romance and female protagonists part of it). There's also the comic books side of it too. Videogame culture is big here too so maybe tie-in fiction is an option as well.

I don't know what the "cool" teen guys go for. That kind of draws a blank to stuff that they might like or maybe reading might be discouraged among their peers as something "uncool."

All I can say (reading this thread) is how things have changed since I was a girl/teen, and it was nearly impossible to find fantasy and SF novels (or other novels where the characters, you know, did things) with female protagonists. Mind you, they didn't separate out "YA" titles as much as they do now, at least in genre fiction. On the one hand, you had books like A Wrinkle in Time and The Chronicles of Narnia, and Lloyd Alexander's books in the Children's section, and you had Piers Anthony's and Anne McCaffrey's stuff with YA protagonists in the SF/F section.

So now there really aren't any interesting books aimed at a teen-aged demographic with male protagonists?

Roxxsmom said:

All I can say (reading this thread) is how things have changed since I was a girl/teen, and it was nearly impossible to find fantasy and SF novels (or other novels where the characters, you know, did things) with female protagonists. Mind you, they didn't separate out "YA" titles as much as they do now, at least in genre fiction. On the one hand, you had books like A Wrinkle in Time and The Chronicles of Narnia, and Lloyd Alexander's books in the Children's section, and you had Piers Anthony's and Anne McCaffrey's stuff with YA protagonists in the SF/F section.

So now there really aren't any interesting books aimed at a teen-aged demographic with male protagonists?

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I think it's less that there aren't any, more that the big best-sellers have had female protagonists and that the YA section is filled with covers with girls in glamorous dresses which has given the appearance of a "feminized" genre and makes boys afraid to go in. That however seems like more of a problem with how we're teaching boys than what's actually in the YA section.