How do you know when a story is ready?

I write a pretty clean first draft, too, but I'd never send it off straight away. For short stories I wait at least a day or two before going back to the story and re-reading it. I always find at least some little tweak I want to make. Then I send it to a few beta readers for their reaction. (Which has occasionally resulted in some real surprises.) Once I have at least two other opinions on the story, I revise it again as needed.

Sometimes that's all it takes. Sometimes not. I have two completed stories that I received feedback on a month or more ago that I haven't sent anywhere. One because most of my betas wanted me to expand it and I'm not sure that was where I as the author of the story wanted to go with it. And one because I think it needs a new beginning based on beta feedback, but I haven't worked out what that beginning should be yet.

The stories I self-published I did all that with, sent out to markets, and then, when it came time to self-publish, went through them yet again. By then it had been about six months from the date they were first complete and I found ways to improve each one.

At some point you have to let go and publish, but sounds to me like you couldn't be hurt by letting them sit a little before you sub them.

I wrote a short piece a while back that had to be no more than 1500 words. It took about a day to write, and about 2 weeks to edit.

I don't think short stories ever get ready. We just have to decide to freeze them sooner or later.

gettingby said:

How many rounds of revisions do you guys usually make on a story?

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Eleven (seriously), before I sent mine to a copy editor. And I still feel like they need more.

It's ready to submit when I finish it. For me, this means as soon as I go back through and check for typos and the like. I don't do any revisions. I take care as I'm writing, make sure each page is as I want it, and that's it.

You don't see problem is old stories because you let them rest, you see problems in old stories because you've been writing steadily, and you're a better writer now than you were then.

You get better by constantly writing new material, and by writing a lot of it, not by tinkering with old, and you get better by sending what you write to gatekeepers, not beta readers who probably know less than you do.

Taking six months and sixty drafts to write a short story just mean you won't write enough short stories to develop your skill.

Do two things, and I guarantee you'll be a lot better by the end of next year than you are now.

1. Take this challenge: http://www.deanwesleysmith.com/?p=53

2. Follow Heinlein's Rules, all five of them, to the letter, as explained here: http://www.sfwriter.com/ow05.htm

Time for the ultimate unhelpful answer in the history of everything:

I make as many revisions as I need.

But let me elaborate. I will never look at my story and say "Good enough" and send it out. If there's something about a piece that bugs me, I won't submit it. Even if I don't know what that something is. If I never put my finger on that one thing then the story never sees the light of day. If it was every published that way, with something obviously wrong with it, it would eat me alive for the rest of my publishing life.

As for a clean first draft, I thought I wrote a pretty neat one myself. Wrong, I was. After putting some time between that first draft and my editing, I could get a little bit of objectivity on it and see it for what it was: a mess.

So to answer your question: I know a story's ready when I can read it through and not get "that feeling". If I would ever be embarrassed at someone reading something in its present state, then it's not ready to be published, which means it's not ready to be submitted.

Good luck.

gettingby said:

I think part of my problem has been sending out stories too quickly after I finish them. I have been sending out first drafts basically. The thing is my first drafts aren't that bad. My writing is clean and pretty clear, I think at least. But now I am starting to really take another look at older pieces and putting more into them. I see where I could have improved. Plus, I am in school for writing now and really think it is helping me. So, how do you know when a story is ready? Is really finished? If I let my revised versions sit for another few months, will I find even more I could do to it? How many rounds of revisions do you guys usually make on a story?

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I make a checklist and judge the story subjectively.

• Is the story written in fluent English prose? This question refers to the overall writing style, word choice, tone, use of transitions from one scene to the next, and a believable narrator.
• Is the story logical and believable? This question refers to the coherency and pertinence of the events of the story. All the events must be important to the plot, and they must make sense as if the characters were real human beings or at least have human souls.

Make one of your characters a fat lady. When she starts to sing . . .

caw

I don't ever send anything out without getting other eyes on it. This is because they ALWAYS find something. Your (or "my" anyway) vision is limited, what you write is an interplay of what's in your mind and what goes on the page. Someone else just gets the page, they notice the gaps that your mind filled in for you. We're often not as clear as we think we're being.

In my experience, they don't even have to be writers. Some people just have a knack for it. We're all readers, and they know if something sounds clunky, isn't believable, bores them, or whatever. It ain't rocket science, right? (I wouldn't wait for the gatekeepers, btw. They're most likely to just reject it if it's not polished, in my experience).

I used to put everything up for critiques and get several opinions. Then I'd re-write, repost for another round of critiques, and make any final changes before sending it out.

After a few years of that, I realized I wasn't getting much out of it any more for the ton of time it takes to return all the favors. I've heard other writers say that too, that after a couple/few years and lots of critiques (giving and receiving), they don't feel like they need as much anymore. I think there are a few dozen common problems that once you get straight, your writing is much cleaner the first time around.

Now, my husband is usually my only critiquer. It's not the typical "aw, that's nice, hon" thing, though. He's really mean, lol.

So, I write it, he reads it out loud to me and we make corrections together as we go. Then I send it out.

However, every damn time I read a story over I find something else, I just can't help tweaking it. And then if it gets no takers after it's been to maybe a dozen places, I might try shortening it. For some reason, I've had great luck with cutting stories way down, even when they seemed tight to me to begin with. ?

Anyway, it's only finished for sure after someone accepts it. Then I seem to lose all interest in it and may not even read it when it comes out.

That's my method, anyway.

I read through a story until everything flows well, also checking for typos and such. Then I let it rest a day or two. Check it again and send it out. If it comes back with a rejection I'll think over what might be wrong or if I sent it to the wrong kind of market. Sometimes my confidence gets destroyed and I don't send it out again. But if I really believe in and love a story I'll continue to send it out with minimal fixing. Eventually the right market will come along.

I have no good answer for this because I feel like it really depends on the story. Some stories seem to come out fully formed from my head. Others are nightmare jumbles of stuff that need major work.

Plus I am often wrong. I thought I worked one of my stories into a shining jewel. Then it was rejected just about everywhere. Finally, one of the editors pointed out a major flaw in an otherwise great story. And I just didn't see it the million and one times I worked on it (nor did my beta reader).

At this point I just work it over until I'm happy with it, let at least one other person read/edit it, then send it off. If I don't get any bites after a few subs, I put it away for a few weeks. Usually when I look at it much later I can clearly see what changes it needs.

Take with grain of salt. I've sold exactly one story so....

Fizgig said:

Plus I am often wrong. I thought I worked one of my stories into a shining jewel. Then it was rejected just about everywhere. Finally, one of the editors pointed out a major flaw in an otherwise great story.

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This is so familiar. I have a hard-drive full of shining jewels! I hope these experiences help us pick up similar problems in the future.

I never seem to know when one of my stories is ready, but I think it has more to do with my own neuroses than with my editing process. However, I've been re-reading the "Uncle Jim, Undiluted" thread over the past few weeks, and this quote stuck in my mind (and I somehow managed to find it in that monster of a thread!):

"If you're taking out a comma in the morning and putting it back in the afternoon, it's time to go to your beta readers."

I can't imagine sending anything off before a few other pairs of eyes have roved over it. No matter how long I wait to revise, or how often I revise, something dumb will get past me.

grayworld said:

If you're taking out a comma in the morning and putting it back in the afternoon, it's time to go to your beta readers

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Definitely. I keep revising as long as the revisions are making a real impact. When I find my revisions are mostly diddling, I know I'm done.

I read a quote from a renowned artist (a painter) that struck me. He said something like, "You can never really finish a work of art. You can only find an interesting place to stop."

I'm writing genre stories, not transforming canvas into masterpieces, but I've learned to stop when more revisions will make things a little different but not more interesting.

Best wishes,
Peter DiChellis

This is what I'm wondering about. My first shot story has gone through four drafts and developed and the plot changed. Someone I really trust told me that the latest draft was much better. I'm not sure if it's ready to submit but I trust his judgement. Still I'm not sure.

Jamesaritchie said:

It's ready to submit when I finish it. For me, this means as soon as I go back through and check for typos and the like. I don't do any revisions. I take care as I'm writing, make sure each page is as I want it, and that's it.

You don't see problem is old stories because you let them rest, you see problems in old stories because you've been writing steadily, and you're a better writer now than you were then.

You get better by constantly writing new material, and by writing a lot of it, not by tinkering with old, and you get better by sending what you write to gatekeepers, not beta readers who probably know less than you do.

Taking six months and sixty drafts to write a short story just mean you won't write enough short stories to develop your skill.

Do two things, and I guarantee you'll be a lot better by the end of next year than you are now.

1. Take this challenge: http://www.deanwesleysmith.com/?p=53

2. Follow Heinlein's Rules, all five of them, to the letter, as explained here: http://www.sfwriter.com/ow05.htm

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Thanks for the link to Rules from RAH.

In the same vein, Dave Drake, a well known SciFi writer once made the comment:
"Be prepared to throw away your first million words."
I completely agree with the statement.

I have an outlet for my drafts where a good chunk of folks will read/comment on the story. My latest, #6 in a series, has gotten multiple "Better than ever" comments. I take to mean that having finally written more than a million (fiction) words, my work is improving to the point the improvement is notable by the readers.

You can revise a work to death, and still find things that "need to be fixed". At some point, it's good enough - let it go and let the editor earn their pay....

Good luck.

I rarely think my stories are ready. I usually write carefully and have very little editing to do I always go back through and change some wording here or there and fix typos. So it might be ready after one or two quick passes through but I feel like I could work or or tweak stuff that I've written forever. At some point I just look at what I have a decide it's time to send it off, but even then I am rarely completely satisfied.

On a side note my favorite story is also the one that went from started to sold the fastest. I wrote it in 2 days, read through it once and sent it off, it was accepted by the publisher that read it, so maybe there really is no right answer.

Thanks to everyone for contributing to this subject and to you gettingby for bringing it up. It was the push I needed to speed up my own process with writing and submitting stories. I have edited them for too long. Too insignificant corrections taking too long.

That seems to be the story of who I am.

So thanks jamesaritchie for the links, I will give the 1W/1S challenge a go after submitting the stories I have so far.

Good luck to all with the editing side of a short story.
JPKjaer

I tend to reread my story about two or three times before I send it out for publication.
Doing so allows me to spot my mistakes and correct them. It also allows me to see the difference in my attitude towards my writing.

chongjasmine said:

It also allows me to see the difference in my attitude towards my writing.

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I'm curious about this. What do you mean by the difference in attitude toward your writing?

I have nothing to add that hasn't already been said before me. You definitely need to edit and edit, and edit some more. Then, after two or three revisions, give it to another pair of eyes. Find someone who will be honest with you and listen to what he or she has to say without arguing or trying to defend your writing. If it was perfect, then your reader wouldn't have any criticism. There is always something that can improve! I've had two shorts in two different anthologies and I am certain that I would look at them now and see corrections I should make. It might upset you to hear about the things that 'didn't work', I know I've felt frustrated, but after giving it some thought, my beta reader is always right. After that, then you might have something worth submitting.

It is a process, no matter what your experience/education is.
Good luck!

gettingby said:

How do you know when a story is ready?

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when the pop up timer pops out.

It's ready when I like it. It goes without saying that a story is never really ready and that there are aways further revisions and further changes that one could make, but I've come to realise that one simply makes a choice based on whether one likes what one sees ... and then one goes with it.

I tend to write a draft. Tweak it. Tweak it some more, leave it, come back to it, tweak it, scratch my head, change it, leave it again ... then say "fuck it" and voila, it's done. Though sometimes I just write something, really like it, leave it a day and then I'm done. I suppose it depends what mood I'm in and what relationship I have to what I've written and what I want to do with the piece. Generally I write fairly short stories so it's possible that the first draft is to my liking.

It's a really tough thing to decide though - when to unleash your baby onto the world.