'Boys aren't reading' because the children's book market is run by women??

Status
Not open for further replies.

LeslieB

Geek Unique
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 9, 2006
Messages
507
Reaction score
95
Location
Florida - A sunny place for shady people
Why aren't we celebrating the fact that so many girls read? The gaming industry doesn't seem to worry too much about girls not playing games.

That's not entirely true. Years ago I had a friendly acquaintanceship with a designer at a game company. My fanfic is based on a game he worked on, and he liked my stories. When a position opened at his company, he suggested I apply for it, because they were actively looking for women designers to broaden the perspectives of their team. I didn't, because of the income cut and move it would have required, but it shows that companies aren't oblivious to the female market.
 

Torgo

Formerly Phantom of Krankor.
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Apr 7, 2005
Messages
7,632
Reaction score
1,204
Location
London, UK
Website
torgoblog.blogspot.com
Well there is a very valid point to be made about gendered publishing, in that you see plenty of "100 Stories For Boys/Girls"-type publishing - it's the explicit "for $gender" messaging that gets my goat. One publisher I saw called out about that made the argument that explicitly gendered books sell 3x as well as the non-gendered alternative. You may or may not feel that's persuasive.

It's a pretty complicated feedback loop, is what I think. There is gendered publishing. What I disagree with is the idea that gendered publishing is to do with the gender makeup of the actual trade. You can tell because when it happens, there's always a boy book and a girl book, not just, say, a girl book.

I think what gets reflected is the kind of society we live in, not the structure of publishing, is the thing.
 

mirandashell

Banned
Joined
Feb 7, 2010
Messages
16,197
Reaction score
1,889
Location
England
I don't think celebrating the fact that girls read is somehow mutually exclusive with encouraging more boys to read, and I think the attitude of "well boys like video games and girls like books, so let's leave it at that" is more than a little problematic.

That wasn't the point I was making. My point was that this conversation about boys not reading has been going on for years. And the only thing that has changed is the assumed reason.

And I apologise if you feel I dismissed your efforts. The thing is.... I didn't know anyone was making any efforts. So far that is still within the gaming community and hasn't reached the outside world. None of the gamers I know are involved in reaching out to women and most of them, being male, have the privilege to not even have to think about it.

So again, my apologies for offending you. It was done out of ignorance.
 
Last edited:

DoNoKharms

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 19, 2013
Messages
624
Reaction score
264
Location
Silicon Valley
That wasn't the point I was making. My point was that this conversation about boys not reading has been going on for years. And the only thing that has changed is the assumed reason.

And I apologise if you feel I dismissed your efforts. The thing is.... I didn't know anyone was making any efforts. So far that is still within the gaming community and hasn't reached the outside world. None of the gamers I know are involved in reaching out to women and most of them, being male, have the privilege to not even have to think about it.

So again, my apologies for offending you. It was done out of ignorance.

No worries at all. Given how hostile gamer culture can be, it's not a surprise it doesn't seem like anyone's doing much. Luckily, from where I'm sitting at least, every year I see more and more people in the industry getting involved, gaining awareness, and working hard to try to make it a better place.
 

jaksen

Caped Codder
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 6, 2010
Messages
5,117
Reaction score
526
Location
In MA, USA, across from a 17th century cemetery
I thought this was all over back in the 1960's, when I, as a little girl, was told to look for books in the girl's section of our town library. (And a noteable library it is, the architect being Henry Hobson Richardson.)

I digress. However, the elderly female librarian - in agreement with a youngish male librarian - would not let me take out books from said 'boy's section.' I went home unhappy. A few days later my mother accompanied me to the library and I picked out whatever books I wanted from wherever I wanted.

Then, as a teacher, I saw young boys (12-13 years old) reading a great variety of books. The rule in our school was 'you are always reading something.' This meant outside the school's required reading. Okay, some boys dragged around the same book for half the year. Some girls did, too, but they were reading. When the Potter books came out, everyone was reading them. I had one boy student tell me he wished 'they weren't so hard to read,' but read them he did.

I hate to think we're back in the 1960's with this boy-girl reading matter. I did like the fashions then, but I was young and looked good in anything. Another digression.

I will add one thing, though. I have a six year old grandson who complains that all the 'good movies have princesses in them.' Now what is that about? (And I do know some good animated movies with boy heroes, which I pointed out to him. He still insisted any really good movie had a 'stupid princess' in it.)
 

mirandashell

Banned
Joined
Feb 7, 2010
Messages
16,197
Reaction score
1,889
Location
England
I agree. I truly believe that at a certain age, a lot of boys just don't want to read. They want to do other stuff. So all the hair-pulling and angsting in the industry is a waste of time.

Besides, it's only cos they want to sell more books and hate seeing a market going begging.
 

kuwisdelu

Revolutionize the World
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 18, 2007
Messages
38,197
Reaction score
4,544
Location
The End of the World
I do remember getting bullied at least once for reading a book with a girl on the cover.

Didn't stop me from reading, but I did feel the need to hide the cover art more than a few times.

Note that I'm blaming the culture inculcated in those bullies, not the cover art.
 

jlstov

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 18, 2013
Messages
92
Reaction score
5
I think all arts ask this question periodically - Basically "How can we make more money? Why are we loosing or not reaching a group of untapped cash?"

Hollywood said the same thing - the same year Avatar became the highest grossing movie of all time. Their argument was that people weren't going to the movies.

The Music Industry asked the same question a few years back, along with the video game industry. I'm sure those over the XBox One are asking the same question right now.

Ultimately, the problem is not with the die-hards but with those who rarely use a service/buy/etc. How do you get a person to go to the movies VS waiting on the movie to come out on DVD? How do you get a person to buy a song vs listen to it a few times on youtube/radio? How do you get those who would rather watch a movie to read?

How do you get more boys to read? Write books boys want to read. While that answer may seem arrogant and overly simple. I think one must go into depth on the subject before it can be discussed. One of the blog articles that convinced me to finally write a novel was actually written by Rick Riordan. He talked about how even after his success and first movie there were those who didn’t understand why he had an explosion in every other chapter. His answer was “I like explosions.” And allot of others must like it too since his books have sold into the millions.

I think the concept is that people are just different and they like different things. I’ve run into many people who really want a “coming of age” story not a “plot driven one.” Reluctant Readers (to me a better tern than boys vs girls) tend to want more “external” things to happen and fewer “internal” things. While from what I’ve read/discussed the Constant Reader many times prefers the internal to the external which means even “boy books” can be boring because nothing external is really happening – dramatic action is not the same as physical action.

A quick search for “Reluctant Reader Books” turns up books like Percy Jackson, Alex Rider, Diary of a Wimpy Kid, and others which are filled with ACTION or every page is loaded with COMEDY, etc.
 

FlaDan

New Fish; Learning About Thick Skin
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 20, 2009
Messages
54
Reaction score
1
Location
Florida
Books are captivating worlds that have a wonderful appeal but most boys are looking for the chance to become a hero, now. They don't want to wait 135 pages to find their hero. That's why video games are such a draw. You can play only a few minutes and are already a hero, betting the odds, vanquishing the foe. Yes it is a black and white world with little of the color or depth of a book but it fills the need.
 

virtue_summer

Always learning
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 22, 2005
Messages
1,325
Reaction score
184
Age
40
Location
California
I think all arts ask this question periodically - Basically "How can we make more money? Why are we loosing or not reaching a group of untapped cash?"
I don't think reading is quite the same. Literacy is important. It's not just about entertainment, though entertainment can be one of the most effective ways to help aid an increase in literacy (people read the book because they're entertained by it, and they improve their reading skills).
How do you get more boys to read? Write books boys want to read.
You say this, and then you point out this:
A quick search for “Reluctant Reader Books” turns up books like Percy Jackson, Alex Rider, Diary of a Wimpy Kid, and others which are filled with ACTION or every page is loaded with COMEDY, etc.
And this suggests the problem isn't with being able to find this content at all. I know most people I've known in my life who weren't readers had no clue what content could be found in books because they had been exposed to so few of them.

I still think the problem with boys not reading (and I do think it's a problem when they're lagging behind in reading skills) is that reading isn't always presented to them as something they should do except in school. I think fewer boys grow up seeing the men around them read, fewer of them are given books as gifts, especially by men (important because boys tend to take cues from male role models as girls do from female ones), and too many people adopt the books just aren't for boys anyway attitude.

I personally think it's more likely the culture around books and reading that leads to boys not reading, not the books themselves. My younger brother always insisted there were no interesting books in the library, and yet my mother would be able to search out something related to his interests at the drop of a hat when he had to find something for a book report.
 

mirandashell

Banned
Joined
Feb 7, 2010
Messages
16,197
Reaction score
1,889
Location
England
(and I do think it's a problem when they're lagging behind in reading skills)

Why is this a problem? Are girls not allowed to be better than boys at something?

And I'm not being sarcastic. I'm asking a genuine question.
 

cornflake

practical experience, FTW
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 11, 2012
Messages
16,171
Reaction score
3,734
I think all arts ask this question periodically - Basically "How can we make more money? Why are we loosing or not reaching a group of untapped cash?"

Hollywood said the same thing - the same year Avatar became the highest grossing movie of all time. Their argument was that people weren't going to the movies.

The Music Industry asked the same question a few years back, along with the video game industry. I'm sure those over the XBox One are asking the same question right now.

Ultimately, the problem is not with the die-hards but with those who rarely use a service/buy/etc. How do you get a person to go to the movies VS waiting on the movie to come out on DVD? How do you get a person to buy a song vs listen to it a few times on youtube/radio? How do you get those who would rather watch a movie to read?

How do you get more boys to read? Write books boys want to read. While that answer may seem arrogant and overly simple. I think one must go into depth on the subject before it can be discussed.

I think the problem with it is the same as when that answer is applied to movies. It presupposes that the people who don't go to movies that often simply don't have things they want to see, thus figure out the demographic, make things they want to see, and voila! Except not. People don't go to the movies for tons of reasons. I love the movies; I don't like paying $14 a ticket, and I really, really, really, don't like assholes who can't keep their mouths shut. I go to movies after they've been open for long enough for the crowds to have severely dissipated. Often, I end up missing movies I'd have seen were people not jackasses. I don't mean everyone is, but go to movies and shush people enough times and the expectation that people will talk, use their phones, etc., becomes the default.

Other ppl don't like paying $7 for stale popcorn or whatever reason. People can afford very nice, very large televisions. These are all factors.

Similarly, I think, the 'write books boys want to read,' ignores that the books exist, that they're not being marketed correctly, that boys aren't getting the idea that reading is a boy thing, that 10 other things. It doesn't make sense to me to suggest that boys WOULD read, if only there were different books from the millions out there, as if they've tried them and found them lacking.

One of the blog articles that convinced me to finally write a novel was actually written by Rick Riordan. He talked about how even after his success and first movie there were those who didn’t understand why he had an explosion in every other chapter. His answer was “I like explosions.” And allot of others must like it too since his books have sold into the millions.

I think the concept is that people are just different and they like different things. I’ve run into many people who really want a “coming of age” story not a “plot driven one.” Reluctant Readers (to me a better tern than boys vs girls) tend to want more “external” things to happen and fewer “internal” things. While from what I’ve read/discussed the Constant Reader many times prefers the internal to the external which means even “boy books” can be boring because nothing external is really happening – dramatic action is not the same as physical action.

A quick search for “Reluctant Reader Books” turns up books like Percy Jackson, Alex Rider, Diary of a Wimpy Kid, and others which are filled with ACTION or every page is loaded with COMEDY, etc.

As noted, this belies the idea that there aren't books. It's also ignoring that there are ten tons of books with explosions that didn't happen to hit, or with comedy, or whatever. It's also conflating reluctant readers with simplistic and boy, and girl with emotional, which I have a problem with.

Books are captivating worlds that have a wonderful appeal but most boys are looking for the chance to become a hero, now. They don't want to wait 135 pages to find their hero. That's why video games are such a draw. You can play only a few minutes and are already a hero, betting the odds, vanquishing the foe. Yes it is a black and white world with little of the color or depth of a book but it fills the need.

This couldn't be more ridiculously sexist if it tried. Really? Boys want to be heroes and can't wait to read a whole book for adrenaline so they play video games (which often take months to complete).

I don't think reading is quite the same. Literacy is important. It's not just about entertainment, though entertainment can be one of the most effective ways to help aid an increase in literacy (people read the book because they're entertained by it, and they improve their reading skills).

You say this, and then you point out this:

And this suggests the problem isn't with being able to find this content at all. I know most people I've known in my life who weren't readers had no clue what content could be found in books because they had been exposed to so few of them.

I still think the problem with boys not reading (and I do think it's a problem when they're lagging behind in reading skills) is that reading isn't always presented to them as something they should do except in school. I think fewer boys grow up seeing the men around them read, fewer of them are given books as gifts, especially by men (important because boys tend to take cues from male role models as girls do from female ones), and too many people adopt the books just aren't for boys anyway attitude.


I personally think it's more likely the culture around books and reading that leads to boys not reading, not the books themselves. My younger brother always insisted there were no interesting books in the library, and yet my mother would be able to search out something related to his interests at the drop of a hat when he had to find something for a book report.

This.
 

KTC

Stand in the Place Where You Live
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 24, 2005
Messages
29,138
Reaction score
8,563
Location
Toronto
Website
ktcraig.com
Boys get talked out of doing a lot of things because of preconceived notions of masculinity (a word I have always laughed at myself---masculinity is a way to live life withing experiencing life...a form of mask wearing that happens to boys at a young age. I do believe it is being de-programmed in the latest generation or so, but it is still there). Boys get bullied away from reading. Don't get me wrong, they also lose interest for the flashier things available to them, but there are a lot who fall victim to the naysayers among their peers who convince them that reading is uncool (and even 'girlie'). They come back to it when they realize they are human first, male second...when they no longer give a shit for the trumped up masculinity shouters. This notion that the market being soaked by females causes the male to not read as much is just idiotic at best...anti-feminist rhetoric at middle and anti-feminist hate-speech at most. Asshats, it appears, can be found anywhere these days.
 
Last edited:

mirandashell

Banned
Joined
Feb 7, 2010
Messages
16,197
Reaction score
1,889
Location
England
I think fewer boys grow up seeing the men around them read, fewer of them are given books as gifts, especially by men

So it's not the fault of women in the industry, it's the fault of fathers?
 

KTC

Stand in the Place Where You Live
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 24, 2005
Messages
29,138
Reaction score
8,563
Location
Toronto
Website
ktcraig.com
I think fewer boys grow up seeing the men around them read, fewer of them are given books as gifts, especially by men (important because boys tend to take cues from male role models as girls do from female ones)

I'm just gonna say NO to this. No. No. No. This is NOT a reason for the disparity.

My son has ALWAYS seen me reading during my free time. Always. He has received books from me as gifts always. I read to him until he was probably too old to be read to. He simply discarded reading at around 9 or so...and picked it up again when he hit 19. Verily, I sobbed over his lack of interest in books. I know I'm just one person...but the path is there for SO many boys...read--not read--hopefully read again. It has nothing to do with a lack of male role model influence.
 

cornflake

practical experience, FTW
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 11, 2012
Messages
16,171
Reaction score
3,734
Why is this a problem? Are girls not allowed to be better than boys at something?

And I'm not being sarcastic. I'm asking a genuine question.

In a general sense, heh.

In a specific sense, the trend in academics of late has been for girls to be better at nearly everything (save some STEM, which the U.S. is woeful at to begin with).

It's been a growing problem that girls are academically outpacing boys. You may ask what the issue is with that, and to some extent, yeah - it'd theoretically go on to eventually correct the gender imbalance in many professions and Corporate America itself. Though it hasn't thus far, which is probably even more of a problem, considering the numbers.

If men fall further and further behind, get lower-paying jobs, which eventually may become obsolete, combined with the imbalance of prisoners, it begins to look like a burgeoning social problem. Or a step on the road to eliminating men, which could be a road beset with social problems, even if one was meh about the outcome.
 

DoNoKharms

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 19, 2013
Messages
624
Reaction score
264
Location
Silicon Valley
Why is this a problem? Are girls not allowed to be better than boys at something?

And I'm not being sarcastic. I'm asking a genuine question.

I don't think the problem is a matter of boys being worse than girls; it's not a gendered competition. Rather, I think "boys don't read much" is a problem in and of itself, regardless of how much girls are reading. I think it's a problem for two reasons:

From an industry perspective, declining readership is bad because it results in fewer books sold, fewer authors signed, smaller advances, worse marketing, etc. More readers means a more thriving, lucrative, and promising publishing industry, and better chances for all us writers.

From a societal perspective, the declining literacy skills are a problem. I think being interested in reading is important, for personal and intellectual growth, and a lack of interest in it is troubling.

Basically, I don't think it's "boys are reading less than girls, and that's bad", it's "boys aren't reading enough, and that's bad." I'd like to think we'd all agree here that "more reading = better", and if half the population is deterred from reading by cultural forces, that seems like something we could all agree is a problem. I don't think you're suggesting "Let's not try to improve boys' literacy because it'll take an advantage away from girls", but I also don't know how you could argue that a world where 70% of people are active readers is worse than one where only 50% are.
 
Last edited:

cornflake

practical experience, FTW
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 11, 2012
Messages
16,171
Reaction score
3,734
I'm just gonna say NO to this. No. No. No. This is NOT a reason for the disparity.

My son has ALWAYS seen me reading during my free time. Always. He has received books from me as gifts always. I read to him until he was probably too old to be read to. He simply discarded reading at around 9 or so...and picked it up again when he hit 19. Verily, I sobbed over his lack of interest in books. I know I'm just one person...but the path is there for SO many boys...read--not read--hopefully read again. It has nothing to do with a lack of male role model influence.

Because that wasn't the case with your kid doesn't mean it's not the case with umpteen others. Perhaps your kid was partly influenced to not read by all those other boys not reading because in their lives, men don't read.

I've heard, that, literally, from numerous people. Like 'did your husband like the book?' 'Oh, he didn't read it - he's a guy, they don't read.'

I grew up with among men who read voraciously, in a community of voracious readers, so I had no experience with this idea either, until I was an older kid and met people outside my 'world,' for whom reading was a ridiculous pastime for anyone, for men, etc.
 

robjvargas

Rob J. Vargas
Banned
Joined
Dec 9, 2011
Messages
6,543
Reaction score
511
Why is this a problem? Are girls not allowed to be better than boys at something?

And I'm not being sarcastic. I'm asking a genuine question.

You know you're starting to sound like Ayn Rand?

:::running:::

Seriously, it's one thing to see one gender with a talent in a particular direction. It's a bit different to talk about participation in an activity, isn't it?
 

Torgo

Formerly Phantom of Krankor.
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Apr 7, 2005
Messages
7,632
Reaction score
1,204
Location
London, UK
Website
torgoblog.blogspot.com
So it's not the fault of women in the industry, it's the fault of fathers?

It's a lot of things. One analysis I saw today is that we have two propositions:

A) More girls read for pleasure than boys
B) More women work in children's publishing

And I for one don't agree that B causes A. But as to whether A causes B... I'm not sure. Maybe people who love books as children are more likely to go into the book trade. Maybe it's a feedback loop.

I would say that our market research seems to support the idea that more children's books are bought by mothers than fathers, and that's perhaps a reflection of the way gender roles persist in our society rather than anything to do with 'fault' or 'blame'.
 

kuwisdelu

Revolutionize the World
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 18, 2007
Messages
38,197
Reaction score
4,544
Location
The End of the World
If men fall further and further behind, get lower-paying jobs, which eventually may become obsolete, combined with the imbalance of prisoners, it begins to look like a burgeoning social problem. Or a step on the road to eliminating men, which could be a road beset with social problems, even if one was meh about the outcome.

Wow. It takes quite a leap of imagination to arrive at the oppressive matriarchy.

Women may be doing better academically now, but that still isn't reflected in most industries and workplaces.

The children's book market is an uncommon exception.
 
Last edited:

Ken

Banned
Kind Benefactor
Joined
Dec 28, 2007
Messages
11,478
Reaction score
6,198
Location
AW. A very nice place!
Maybe people who love books as children are more likely to go into the book trade. Maybe it's a feedback loop.

Good insider's assessment.

Maybe women also just haven't had many career opportunities open to them, until really recently, infuriating as it is to consider such in these, "enlightened times" of ours. Publishing may have been one of a few career options (truly) open to pursuit, thanks to big bosses in the industry willing to give women a chance in contrast to other industries as banking, etc. Kudos to them and to the publishing industry as a whole !
 

mirandashell

Banned
Joined
Feb 7, 2010
Messages
16,197
Reaction score
1,889
Location
England
I don't think you're suggesting "Let's not try to improve boys' literacy because it'll take an advantage away from girls", but I also don't know how you could argue that a world where 70% of people are active readers is worse than one where only 50% are.

To be honest, that's fourteen million miles away from what I'm saying.

What I'm trying to do is take out the gendering by pointing out the sheer ridiculousness of saying 'boys read less than girls and that's bad.'

I totally agree with 'boys should read more cos then we will sell more books' for obvious reasons.

But I really don't see the connection between 'boys don't like to read at a certain age' and 'boys are not as literate as they should be and this will lead to a collapse in society and the extinction of men.'

If boys learn to read and then choose not to, that's their choice and no-one has come up with a foolproof way of making them read. As I've said several times, this conversation has been going on for years. But not teaching them to read so they aren't literate is a whole different subject.

As for role models, it's just a surprise that something is blamed on their fathers. 99.9% of the time, it's the fault of their mothers. Even when it isn't.....
 

jlstov

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 18, 2013
Messages
92
Reaction score
5
… People don't go to the movies for tons of reasons. I love the movies; I don't like paying $14 a ticket, and I really, really, really, don't like assholes who can't keep their mouths shut. I go to movies after they've been open for long enough for the crowds to have severely dissipated. … These are all factors.

Similarly, I think, the 'write books boys want to read,' ignores that the books exist, that they're not being marketed correctly, that boys aren't getting the idea that reading is a boy thing, that 10 other things. It doesn't make sense to me to suggest that boys WOULD read, if only there were different books from the millions out there, as if they've tried them and found them lacking.

As noted, this belies the idea that there aren't books. It's also ignoring that there are ten tons of books with explosions that didn't happen to hit, or with comedy, or whatever. It's also conflating reluctant readers with simplistic and boy, and girl with emotional, which I have a problem with.

I agree with several of your points. But I think you’ve missed part of mine.

There have to be books out there, BUT I AGREE THAT THERE ARE. And many seem to be doing well, i.e. my examples of Percy Jackson and Alex Rider. Just like Avatar was for movies in a year where Hollywood scratched its head saying people don’t like to go to the movies. My point was to the fact that the industry is saying something because it wants more money. So it’s looking for a something to blame. But you can’t blame something that actually makes money: Hunger Games, Harry Potter, Fablehaven, Beyonders, Alex Rider, Ranger’s Apprentice, The Mortal Instruments, etc.

Also to your point I lump both boys and girls in Reluctant Readers. There are plenty of girl Reluctant Readers. Sorry if I was being confusing.

I think the issue is Reluctant Readers not Boy vs Girl Readers. And honestly, it doesn’t matter what we feel/think. I think the questions that need to be asked are: How do the Reluctant Readers feel about reading? What do they want?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.