*Trigger Warning* Rape: A Crude Plot Device?

Victorians have a lot to answer for

But that does not excuse people thinking that way now

Ken said:

... the ol', "she said no, but her body said yes."

Good g*d, what tripe !

Click to expand...

I remember being 1000% impressed when a cartoon addressed it.
"Your lips say 'no,' but your eyes say--"
"Leave?"
Stuck with me so much I've remembered it for about 10 years.

Plus, one of the quick-n-easy ways to make a hero dark, edgy, compelling, alpha-male, etc. in a romance is to make him push for sex or sexual control.

Even in romances where there isn't actual rape, this can happen. He coerces her into BDSM because he sees her inner sub, for instance. It's all the same underlying trope.

Hapax Legomenon said:

Knowing that this is wrong and bad IRL but still enjoying reading/thinking about it is like, a huge part of fiction, isn't it?

Click to expand...

I think this is true, but it comes down to expectations. If I buy a work of erotica by an author who I know writes rape fantasy stuff, or even a style of romance where I expect the thing is initial resistance followed by passionate surrender, then that's one thing. I deliberately sought this out because I was reading to appease a particular fantasy, however unrealistic.

But even if this was my thing when I'm reading erotica or a certain subcategory of genre romance, when I read fantasy and SF novels, I tend to be looking for fantastical settings, worlds, societies, magic, high tech etc. But I expect the relationships and people to be operating within more believable emotional parameters. This doesn't mean no sexual assault can ever happen, but I want it to be framed in a way that's more realistic in terms of its motivations and consequences. If it's cast as sympathetic or sexy, then the writer will have lost me. Same thing for mainstream or historical fiction.

I think the problem is when a writer decides to cross genre boundaries with rape tropes, either through design or ignorance (maybe he or she really thinks it's a good thing for women to fall for their rapists, or than sympathetic men can commit rape, or that real life women shrug it off, like in Friday).

Roxxsmom said:

I think this is true, but it comes down to expectations. If I buy a work of erotica by an author who I know writes rape fantasy stuff, or even a style of romance where I expect the thing is initial resistance followed by passionate surrender, then that's one thing. I deliberately sought this out because I was reading to appease a particular fantasy, however unrealistic.

Click to expand...

Agreed. With the romance I mentioned earlier, I knew the author wrote "dark heroes", so I was prepared for hero-on-heroine forced sexytimes. I wasn't expecting gang-rape, though. That came as a very unpleasant surprise, was somewhat more realistic (i.e. the heroine was terrified rather than turned on) and went way past the line for me.

I think the problem is when a writer decides to cross genre boundaries with rape tropes, either through design or ignorance (maybe he or she really thinks it's a good thing for women to fall for their rapists, or than sympathetic men can commit rape, or that real life women shrug it off, like in Friday).

Click to expand...

Sometimes I think in romance, there's a subtle pressure to be more and more outrageous. BDSM isn't enough any more - now he owns a BDSM club. No, wait, he forces her to join. No, better still, it's a secret BDSM club operating out of some country in the Middle East, and he's a hot sheikh who kidnaps her to be the star attraction.

Sometimes this works and readers will snap it up as cracktastic crazysauce, but it's easy to cross a line even within the genre.

I think rape arcs can raise hackles, even when the writer means it to be part of the protagonist's ongoing journey (and didn't just toss it in to shock or outrage) if it feels like he or she is shaking a finger and telling the reader that this is how a woman (or man) *should* react and feel too.

I've read a couple of books where a character was raped and she shrugged it off because "she wasn't all hung up about sex." Aside from shaking a finger at women who are traumatized by rape, it totally plays into the the whole idea that rape is really just sex.

Marian Perera said:

Sometimes I think in romance, there's a subtle pressure to be more and more outrageous.

Click to expand...

I think this is true for violence in novels too, or for the death of important characters. At some point, we'll just be at a place in fantasy where it's the norm that every character is dead and the world is a burnt cinder at the end, because happy, or even bittersweet, endings are soooo unrealistic, trite and predictable.

The Sad Girl is about sex trafficking. The MC discovers he's got a daughter he didn't know about, and that she's been kidnapped into such a ring. It's first-person though, so I never really bring it on-screen. You can't ignore it in that kind of a story, but Danny doesn't focus on it, or ask his daughter about it, although one of her fellow victims mentions it during a witness interview.

jjdebenedictis said:

I think a lot of dubious consent, etc, fantasies come about because there's often a disconnect between what you consciously think you should want and what your body sets up cravings for.

If a reader can't psychologically give herself/himself permission to want kinky, transgressive sex, then it's helpful (in the quest to get their rocks off) for them to set up a fantasy built around a loophole: the problematic decision gets taken out of their hands. Then the reader can (vicariously, in the fantasy) enjoy the kinky sex without thinking less of themselves for enjoying it. In their mind, they didn't do anything "wrong".

Click to expand...

I think the psychology behind rape fantasies is much more complex than this. Not saying that it might not be true in some cases, but I think it implies that all women can be "cured" of these fantasies by being less repressed. It really begs the question: do we think that women shouldn't have these kinds of fantasies at all? Or is the problem when these fantasies don't stay in the bedroom?

It's not rhetorical question; I'm really curious what you all think.

ETA: the reason I'm asking is that I saw this discussion in a feminist forum a while back and there was a huge discrepancy between those who claimed that it was unhealthy and that you had no right in indulging in fantasies that were (in their opinion) ultimately harmful to other women and those (quite often into a BDSM lifestyle) who claimed that it was oppressive to set limits on what women were allowed to have fantasies about and that rape fantasies were not in themselves unhealthy. So I was curious about what you think.

I found this article, which looks like it addresses the different theories about why so many women have rape fantasies from a scholarly pov, but alas, it is behind a pay wall (and I'm sorry, 39 bucks for one article is a bit ridiculous). I may have to find out if my college's library has access to this journal, because it looks interesting.

Flicka said:

I think the psychology behind rape fantasies is much more complex than this. Not saying that it might not be true in some cases, but I think it implies that all women can be "cured" of these fantasies by being less repressed. It really begs the question: do we think that women shouldn't have these kinds of fantasies at all? Or is the problem when these fantasies don't stay in the bedroom?

It's not rhetorical question; I'm really curious what you all think.

Click to expand...

I think asking for "reasons" behind kinks usually just results in a bunch of pop psychology bullshit answers, which is why I hate these kinds of discussions. I don't think anyone needs to rationalize what turns them on as long as they're not hurting anyone.

But I'll indulge anyway.

First, I want to point out that women aren't the only ones who have rape fantasies. Yes, men can fantasize about wanting to be raped, too.

Quite a few kinks involve being forced to do things you don't want to do, and rape is just one of them. And they probably turn people on for a wide range of reasons. For example, humiliation fantasies or a fantasy about being forced into sex slavery probably turn different people on than the "Stockholm Syndrome" faux-romance rape fantasy we seem to be mostly talking about. On the male side of things, there are also things like forced feminization, etc.

And when you get further from real life, sci-fi and fantasy offer a whole new gamut of "forced" and "non-con" kinks, such as aphrodisiacs, body swap, mind control, tentacle and monster rape, etc. Try going Freudian on those.

Roxxsmom said:

I found this article, which looks like it addresses the different theories about why so many women have rape fantasies from a scholarly pov, but alas, it is behind a pay wall (and I'm sorry, 39 bucks for one article is a bit ridiculous). I may have to find out if my college's library has access to this journal, because it looks interesting.

Click to expand...

Mine does.

Interestingly, the definition used for "rape" in the journal article is narrower than simply "non-consensual":

For the purposes of the present review, the term ‘‘rape fantasy’’ will follow legal definitions of rape and sexual assault (Corpus Juris Secundum, 2002). This term will refer to women’s fantasies that involve the use of physical force, threat of force, or incapacitation through, for example, sleep or intoxication, to coerce a woman into sexual activity against her will, that is, against the will of the character she identifies with in the fantasy. Thus rape fantasies contain three key elements: force, sex, and nonconsent.

Click to expand...

Heh. And there's a whole section on romance novels, too long to quote all of it:

Romance novels, which account for 40% of mass paperback sales in the United States (Salmon & Symons, 2003), are erotic love stories written almost exclusively by women for a female audience, and it is not uncommon for these novels to include themes of rape. One review of historical romance novels found that 54% included the rape of the lead female character (Thurston, 1987). In particular, Hazen’s (1983) analysis of rape in romance novels also functions as a theory of women’s erotic rape fantasies.

Click to expand...

Oh my, but I gotta include this part:

In male fiction, the challenge takes the form of a violent confrontation with an evil adversary. In romance novels, there is often a violent confrontation with a dominant, sexually aggressive adversary who appears to be evil. The chal- lenge for the heroine is to conquer his heart, seduce him into falling in love with her, have him voluntarily make a lifetime commitment to her, and transform his apparent evil and cruelty into something more socially acceptable without diminishing his masculinity.

Click to expand...

Jamesaritchie said:

I really believe you have to be careful how you handle a rape scene. It has to be realistic, and what I hate most is when the raped woman then falls in love with the man who raped her.

Click to expand...

Like in Flowers In The Attic?

S. Eli said:

I remember being 1000% impressed when a cartoon addressed it.
"Your lips say 'no,' but your eyes say--"
"Leave?"
Stuck with me so much I've remembered it for about 10 years.

Click to expand...

Celia Cyanide said:

Like in Flowers In The Attic?

Click to expand...

And Luke and Laura on General Hospital? I remember so many girls in school just sighing and swooning the day after they'd gotten married on the show.

Celia Cyanide said:

Like in Flowers In The Attic?

Click to expand...

The incest angle freaked me out more than the rape did, actually. Especially in the sequels, where her brother was fixated on her even after she got married to two other (non-biologically-related) men.

Marian Perera said:

I didn't think so either, but a number of readers enjoyed the relationship, dysfunctional though it was. Perhaps it's easy to identify with a woman who's attracted to a man even though she knows he's bad for her.

And the novel is by a USA Today bestselling author. I'm guessing if she wants to call this a love story, she gets to do so.

Click to expand...

What book are we talking about, anyway?

It's difficult to say. I remember reading an interview with an author who said that to her, if a man is your soulmate, your body recognizes that even if your mind doesn't quite get it yet. Therefore, what was important in her novels wasn't that the men raped the women, it was that they gave the women amazing multiple orgasms by doing so. They proved their worth, so to speak.

Click to expand...

I think I will refrain from saying exactly what I think of this...

Hi, long time lurker, casual poster...

What about other genres though? Mystery or crime for example. If the main story is the investigation of the crime, and say the crime is rape / murder. That sort of story would be unlikely to follow the aftereffects of the victim’s rape, especially if the victim was also murdered. What’s everybody’s opinion in that sort of story situation?

I don’t read romance so have not really come across the sorts of things being discussed here. But it made me think about books I have read with rape and they’re usually crime / mystery or horror genre books. I never really thought about this subject much before. I personally wouldn’t be interested in reading about the aftermath and how the victim coped, just because those aren’t the sort of books I like. Not saying that stuff shouldn’t be covered there (for realism’s sake). Just interested in what people think about rape in fiction from that point of view.

BethS said:

What book are we talking about, anyway?

Click to expand...

The novel is Breathless, by Anne Stuart.

I think I will refrain from saying exactly what I think of this...

Click to expand...

Well, if the rape in the stories needs justification, maybe the soulmate angle sounds better than "some readers get off on it".

This is the part that always makes me uncomfortable when it comes to this conversation. Normally because it begins by some writer feeling oppressed because no one has yet to mention that people have the right to write rape in an erotic fashion. Which is of course true, there are very few things that no on will publish and therefore very few things a write can't write about. But I'm of the camp that believes it has its place, and in that case its place is in rape erotica and dark romances that include it. My issue is when it drifts into other genres where I feel it has no place being erotized. When that happen, I become warry of the writer and am not likely to read anything else by them. But I'm also someone who is picky about things, if I want to read something particular then I will seek it out. I will choose it. If I haven't made the choice then I don't want to be surprised by it.

Belinda Rees said:

Hi, long time lurker, casual poster...

What about other genres though? Mystery or crime for example. If the main story is the investigation of the crime, and say the crime is rape / murder. That sort of story would be unlikely to follow the aftereffects of the victim’s rape, especially if the victim was also murdered. What’s everybody’s opinion in that sort of story situation?

I don’t read romance so have not really come across the sorts of things being discussed here. But it made me think about books I have read with rape and they’re usually crime / mystery or horror genre books. I never really thought about this subject much before. I personally wouldn’t be interested in reading about the aftermath and how the victim coped, just because those aren’t the sort of books I like. Not saying that stuff shouldn’t be covered there (for realism’s sake). Just interested in what people think about rape in fiction from that point of view.

Click to expand...

Well, with mystery and crime I don't see overuse or eroticized rape as much of an issue. Not even in Horror really, because crime and the other two are the fiction of bad things happening. If I read a horror novel including rape from the pov of the rapist as some sort of dark descent, I'm not put off. They may very well be getting arroused by the power, and that isn't uncommon in real life. Rape is about power, but it doesn't mean the person commiting the act isn't finding sexual gratification from it. And by definition, if it is horror especially I know what I'm getting myself into from the start. I expect an author to use within reason whatever they can to scare me, because that's the intent.

It may seem hypocritical, but if a character in a horror novel falls in love with their attacker by way of stockholm syndrome I'm not as disturbed as if it turned up other places. The writer is exploring how victims can then become the very monsters who harmed them. As real love though? It's a complete no go for me.

In male fiction, the challenge takes the form of a violent confrontation with an evil adversary. In romance novels, there is often a violent confrontation with a dominant, sexually aggressive adversary who appears to be evil. The chal- lenge for the heroine is to conquer his heart, seduce him into falling in love with her, have him voluntarily make a lifetime commitment to her, and transform his apparent evil and cruelty into something more socially acceptable without diminishing his masculinity.

Click to expand...

Love the way everything that isn't romance suddenly becomes "male fiction" and that romance becomes (via implication, if not stated overtly) something most women read (and to the exclusion of all else). I'm female, and I have always enjoyed reading books where women and girls face obstacles that are not, um, romantic in nature, including armed conflicts with evil adversaries. And the romances I've enjoyed are where the man "conquers" the woman's heart at least as much as the reverse, or where two people who are friends and partners for another reason discover that they love one another. Actually, I can't think of any romances where the woman is following the man around and trying to conquer his heart (there was Forever Amber, but that wasn't really a romance, and there was no HEA). That would come off as sort of pathetic and stalkerish.

From the excerpts you posted, I can see some other potential errors of reasoning, for instance, that the 39-57% number posted initially (for women who have "rape" fantasies actually have the kind of "rape" fantasies the authors are narrowing their own definition down to.

I personally think a person's fantasies are their own business too, and yeah, no one talks about whether or not men ever fantasize about being raped, let alone being in a sexually submissive role (and of course, some do).

The only time I find rape fantasies troubling is when they're used as a justification for being blase about real rape, or when some men assume their existence means that all (or most) women really want to be dominated in relationships, and in society in general, or that rape *really* is just a type of sex.

Flicka said:

I think the psychology behind rape fantasies is much more complex than this. Not saying that it might not be true in some cases, but I think it implies that all women can be "cured" of these fantasies by being less repressed. It really begs the question: do we think that women shouldn't have these kinds of fantasies at all? Or is the problem when these fantasies don't stay in the bedroom?

It's not rhetorical question; I'm really curious what you all think.

Click to expand...

Well, I wasn't talking about women specifically, but you're right that my statement was too specific to what I suspect is true for me, rather than universally true.

I will avoid getting TMI with this, but a few years ago, I had a (night-time, fully asleep) dream where my brain was obviously trying to work its way around a deeply-felt, conscious belief of mine (regarding adultery) in order to turn the dream erotic. The dream would progress, then it would hit the roadblock of me thinking, "But no, this is wrong," and then the dream would start over from the beginning -- same scenario, same other-person involved, different progression of events. And every time the dream restarted, things would get a little sexier, and my "But no, this is wrong" response would be a little weaker and lag farther behind events.

I think this was my own brain trying to woo me into that dream. It was a fun dream -- but I couldn't have enjoyed it cold. I had to be coaxed a little way into it, then a little more, and a little more. My subconscious's desire to have some fun was butting up against my conscious mind's boundaries on what is okay behaviour, so it had to seduce me into that dream.

Thus, I kind of wonder if a lot of people's fantasies work this way. You can't enjoy something that honestly strikes you as wrong, so the part of your brain that wants to enjoy it anyway has to come up with a loophole that allows the rest of you to join in on the fun.

I don't view this as "repression", however. (In fact, I dislike that word because so often it gets used a tool to try to bully others into validating a worldview they don't organically believe in.) People have beliefs and morals, and those are real, worthy, and valid, but the human mind is a gumbo of a lot more than just our conscious beliefs. Thus, having a fantasy is not necessarily a simple thing. Sometimes, the individual needs to tack on an indemnity-from-liability clause to the fantasy in order to enter it without discomfort.

Roxxsmom said:

Love the way everything that isn't romance suddenly becomes "male fiction" and that romance becomes (via implication, if not stated overtly) something most women read (and to the exclusion of all else).

Click to expand...

For what it's worth, I didn't read that the way you did. I read it as the readers are largely women. Sort of the converse of what you saw.

M.S. Wiggins said:

Is the graphic-ness of these stories/scenes linked to vocabulary/word choice? Or is it ‘graphic’ because it happens?

Click to expand...

Forgive me for taking so long to reply to your comment, but I have read and reread it and it still confuses me about what exactly what you're asking. Could you rephrase it, please?

robjvargas said:

For what it's worth, I didn't read that the way you did. I read it as the readers are largely women. Sort of the converse of what you saw.

Click to expand...

I was more objecting to the notion that there is this male fiction that is all a certain way, and there are no women who also like to read stories with more active protagonists, in or out of the romance genre (I'm curious about the assertion that rape is a part of 50% of published romance, too, as the romance writers of America say that "friends to lovers" is the most popular trope in romance, which doesn't sound too rapey).

For what it's worth, I'd find a romantic arc like the one they're describing to be rather uninspiring, and I like fantasy and SF, whether or not a romantic arc is present in the story.

It's very possible that the authors didn't mean to overgeneralize (hard to tell without access to the entire text), but I've been told what I am *really* like (whether or not I'm aware of really liking it) enough times that any implication that women are one way and men are another really sets my alarms to ringing.

I know for 100% certain that there is at least one woman in the world who is not the way the so-called gender experts insist woman are. I suspect that there are others, and that there are men who are not 100% the way the so-called gender experts insist men are (from what people have told me abut themselves and from the observations I've made about the behavior of many boys and girls and men and women I've met over the years). Yes, we could all be lying or deluding ourselves about what we're "really" like, but that assertion is impossible to falsify.