School Uniforms: Good, Bad, or Ugggleeee?

heza · Feb 6, 2015

cornflake said:
Most uniform skirts are not in any way short until the girls themselves get a hold of them and roll them up at the waist. There are usually fingertip rules about uniform skirts. I'm fine with pant options but ...

I'm actually very much against a mandatory skirt for girls, myself. It's fine as an option, but I don't think girls should be forced to wear them... and frankly, I think boys should be allowed if they want. But I would have been very uncomfortable in a skirt. When you get to the awkward ages where you're more aware of yourself, it limits the kind of play you can engage in.

Ravioli · Feb 6, 2015

cornflake said:
Just girls?

Illegal? Girls should be able to take their parents or anyone else to court for putting them in clothing that exposes ANY part they're uncomfortable with?

This will make driver's license photos interesting.

That's just untenable on its face and, imo, hideously misogynistic, as it seems to go along with the idea that girls specifically should be hiding body parts and feeling shame about their bodies and exposing their bodies or skin or whatever.

Most uniform skirts are not in any way short until the girls themselves get a hold of them and roll them up at the waist. There are usually fingertip rules about uniform skirts. I'm fine with pant options but ...

As to the raising people right so no one ever bullies, or I presume teases or shuns or etc., we are talking about humans, right?

I'm not saying they SHOULD hide bodyparts. I'm saying they should be FREE to. Being free to hide parts of your body, is in the same category as being free to expose them: it must be 100% YOUR choice, and YOUR level of comfort. Not some idiot principal's who is not walking around in YOUR body. When you have the shit beaten and teased out of you and your artwork pissed on because you're fat, why should some adult who doesn't have this problem, get to tell you to expose more of that vulnerability to get beaten right into hospital? Or hey - be one of the many suicide cases.

Do you think most fat girls for example, like having their thunder thighs jiggling around NAKED? As a set-on-fire-for-being-fat fat girl, I can guarantee you that there are a lot of uniform-wearing girls out there fantasizing about dropping out just so they can put on pants. I skipped PE for years because jiggling my legs in the mandatory shorts got me beaten with frozen-stiff dead cats and shit thrown at me, and this has impacted me to this point as I have NO exercise routine and missed out on a lot of socializing/play time, so...
My questioning the ethics of mandatory skirts would be mysogynistic according to your logic then? Guess it's more ethical to expose easy prey to the vultures.... Making girls with physical insecurities expose them, is like chaining a zebra to a tree a pride of lions are dozing under.

And there are girls uncomfortable wearing a skirt as long as knee-length. They should be respected if they feel uncomfortable with it. In case you didn't get me: I am saying every girl needs to be able to wear whatever she, individually, feels comfortable in. The opposite of what you are making my post into.

And yeah, we're talking humans. And for being obligatorily more intelligent than apes, humans aren't natural born bullies. Bullies are (self-)made, and by correct environmental upbringing and having the right values instilled, this can be changed. It's very easy, really. Bullying is no reflex, it is a deliberate action, and any and all deliberate actions can be easily refrained from :hooray:

I mean, my colleague has a huge forehead. I could call her Miss Billboard, but I simply don't. Simply. Don't.

@ID / License driver pics... There is a difference between an identifying feature such as a face... and thighs. You need a face to recognize a person in most/all circumstances. What do schools need bare legs for?

cornflake · Feb 6, 2015

Just to clarify, my 'but...' wasn't meant as a hedge against pants for girls. I meant but because the way the post I responded to was worded made me uncomfortable in that it felt like agreeing was agreeing that girls should naturally feel self-conscious about exposing their legs.

I don't care who wears pants or skirts - I'd be fine with 'here are the uniform options, everyone must wear one full-length bottom (defined as a skirt or pants), one top (defined as a button-down shirt or polo in summer), one tie, optional sweater, blazer, black flat shoes.' or whatever.

Cathy C · Feb 6, 2015

Speaking as a bit of an old fogey here, but when I entered high school back in the late 70's, our school was just coming OUT of a period of uniforms into a "wear what you like" time. It was horrible! I wanted the uniforms back, even if they were skirts (which I seriously hate). Why? Because there were constant, never-ending, backstabbing comments about whose fashion was a week out of date, or who wore the same shoes for two days in a row, or who was wearing hand-me-downs from older siblings. My mom was a seamstress for a living and made most of my clothes. Nobody called them "designer" clothes (which they were, because she rocked!) They were "your mom made your shirt? Eww!

Uniforms? Net positive for me. :Sun:

mirandashell · Feb 6, 2015

I skipped PE for years because jiggling my legs in the mandatory shorts got me beaten with frozen-stiff dead cats and shit thrown at me, and this has impacted me to this point as I have NO exercise routine and missed out on a lot of socializing/play time, so...

That sounds like some seriously psycho behaviour. Who the hell would freeze a dead cat just to hit someone with it? Do you know what happened to that person in later life?

KateH · Feb 6, 2015

I'm still at high school, wearing uniform, and I'd say it's a positive thing.

My primary school was one of the few that didn't have a unform, but kids at that age all dress terribly, and nobody was picked on for what they wore. From intermediate onwards, I've had uniforms and I'm grateful. Saves me a lot of time in the mornings, and it avoids the issue of bullying because of clothing. Of course, bullying still happens, but it's one less reason for it.

My high school has a pretty relaxed stance towards uniform, which I like. Hair dye, makeup, piercings, etc are generally allowed, so there's still scope for expressing yourself while wearing the same clothes as everyone else. Girls are allowed to wear shorts if they choose, though very few do.

My only complaints are the quality of the clothes, and the price. Some items are horribly ill-fitting, or prone to breaking, and yet uniform costs hundreds of dollars.

Usher · Feb 6, 2015

Wear a long skirt - although I see nothing wrong with trousers or for that matter boys wearing a skirt. My second school uniform had the choice between skirt or trousers.

It just makes the teenage years easier. I home ed mine so it's not an issue.

Mr Flibble · Feb 6, 2015

mirandashell said:
That sounds like some seriously psycho behaviour. Who the hell would freeze a dead cat just to hit someone with it? Do you know what happened to that person in later life?

What she said

And did teachers not intervene?

RikWriter · Feb 6, 2015

I have two kids and my son wore a uniform through middle school but is now at a high school where he doesn't have to. My daughter is in middle school and still wearing a uniform.
I think for the teachers, uniforms are a great thing. No issues with sending people home because they wore clothes that went against the dress code, no grey areas that will cause friction with parents.
For the kids, I'm not so sure. I think it stifles individualism at a time when they're trying to assert their individuality.

kuwisdelu · Feb 6, 2015

KateH said:
From intermediate onwards, I've had uniforms and I'm grateful. Saves me a lot of time in the mornings, and it avoids the issue of bullying because of clothing.

See, that's the issue I have with strict dress codes. It takes away options without actually solving the problems a uniform would. Doesn't save time, because you still gotta figure out what to wear, and instead of designer jeans, it's about designer polos, etc.

Usher · Feb 6, 2015

RikWriter said:
I think it stifles individualism at a time when they're trying to assert their individuality.

Where I grew up school uniform was normal and I don't think that was true If anything it forced us to find other ways and be more creative with individuality.

Silly things like pushing down socks (until it was outlawed), the aforementioned rolling up of skirts at the waistband, decorating school bags etc

If anything I think it encourages more individuality because with a uniform you fight to be different rather than when there is no uniform and you are fighting to follow the fashion and the crowd.

Plus it really is a little sad if the only way a teen can be an individual is through their clothes.

Mr Flibble · Feb 6, 2015

Usher said:
Where I grew up school uniform was normal and I don't think that was true If anything it forced us to find other ways and be more creative with individuality.

Yup

There are a thousand or more ways to be individual and still be wearing the uniform. You just have to think about it harder

Another ding in the plus column.

I mean, most people wil go into a workplace where they will be expected to wear X (with parameters). If they have considered this first, are used to it and how to make themselves them while still adhering.. well then, that's a plus. They are ahead of the curve/ If they expect to go in in whatever the hell they feel like, that is a minus. They are not prepared for the world of Jobs.

DancingMaenid · Feb 6, 2015

heza said:
I'm actually very much against a mandatory skirt for girls, myself. It's fine as an option, but I don't think girls should be forced to wear them... and frankly, I think boys should be allowed if they want. But I would have been very uncomfortable in a skirt. When you get to the awkward ages where you're more aware of yourself, it limits the kind of play you can engage in.

Yeah, I'm very, very uncomfortable with rules based strictly on gender or that require/disallow gendered clothing such as skirts. It's discriminatory and can also make things a lot more difficult for transgender students.

More generally, I think uniforms have good and bad points, and a lot of that depends on precisely how they're implemented. I do think that if a public school is going to require uniforms, it's important that some clothing is provided to students for free. The school doesn't have to provide an entire wardrobe, but if essential garments aren't provided, that can really make things difficult for families who may not be able to afford uniforms. If kids are going to be required to have receive an education until a certain age, I think it's the government's duty to make sure they have the bare minimum of supplies they need to attend school.

I think uniforms can be more or less expensive, depending on the circumstances. In some cases, it may be less expensive if it means that a family has to purchase fewer clothes overall. But it can also be more expensive if parents have to buy from uniform stores or if they would have otherwise relied on hand-me-downs or secondhand clothing but can't because of the uniform requirement.

I don't agree with the argument that wearing uniforms teaches children how to dress professionally, because when you wear a uniform you don't actually have to exercise much personal responsibility. The choices are made for you.

I think uniforms can be all right. On a personal level, I don't like them and wouldn't be as likely to choose a school that required them. But I don't think they're always bad. It's one option. The important thing is that school prioritizes students' well-being and dignity over arbitrary dress code rules that don't actually matter. Otherwise, you get cases like this one where a staff member apparently http://www.wbtv.com/story/27979398/mother-upset-after-teacher-takes-childrens-coats-sends-them-home-in-the-cold sent children home without their winter coats because said coats were the wrong color.

kuwisdelu · Feb 6, 2015

Mr Flibble said:
I mean, most people wil go into a workplace where they will be expected to wear X (with parameters). If they have considered this first, are used to it and how to make themselves them while still adhering.. well then, that's a plus. They are ahead of the curve/ If they expect to go in in whatever the hell they feel like, that is a minus.

Or, y'know, they could always decide to work in an area where that clothing uniformity isn't expected...

They are not prepared for the world of Jobs.

Now that's a man who had an iconic uniform.

Incidentally, the story of how the legendary turtleneck-and-jeans uniform came about is rather appropriate. In the early 1980s, Steve Job visited Sony in Japan, and noticed that all of the employees wore company uniforms. He liked the idea of a company uniform, and asked Japanese designer Issey Miyake to design an Apple company uniform. Of course, when he brought it back to the states, all of the Apple employees hated the idea and booed him off stage when he announced it. Nonetheless, he decided to adopt a personal uniform for himself, and had Miyake design him the now-iconic black turtlenecks he wore. He ordered 100 of them, and wore them the rest of his life.

NinjaFingers · Feb 6, 2015

I had to wear a uniform. I did not like having to wear a skirt every day (I don't mind skirts - when I'm in the mood for skirts).

But other than that? I didn't mind it at all.

I didn't have to worry about choosing what to wear in the morning - which for somebody as not-a-morning-person as me is a big deal. I didn't have to worry about if I was going to be teased by another girl for wearing something too frequently.

I can see the cost issue. I can definitely see the cost issue.

Here's the other thing. Dress codes are often implemented in awful ways; most especially as a tool for gender discrimination. Girls are often sent the message that their education is less important than the boys who might be "distracted" by seeing a bare shoulder.

Uniforms actually fix that. It's very clear that you wear this and exactly this. No ambiguity. No space for teachers to harass kids they don't like. AND many dress codes are more anal and harder to follow than uniforms!

Calla Lily · Feb 6, 2015

Catholic school from Kindergarten through 12th grade 1966-1979. We wore the ugliest possible plaid jumpers (1st-6th) and skirts (7th-12th). Large dark blue/dark green plaid intersected by skinny bright yellow and bright red stripes. White long- or short-sleeved blouses. Dark blue or dark green knee socks. No pantyhose allowed.

The boys wore navy blue or dark green pants and white shirts. Sweaters for boys and girls, if desired, dark blue or dark green.

The only individual choices allowed were our shoes. No sneakers. The school was an old 3-story building in the inner city and yes, we rolled our skirts up at the waist and the boys stood on the bottom flight and looked up as we climbed to catch a glimpse.

Nobody really had a lot of money and the uniforms were pricey for the time but they lasted for years. They took vanity out of the equation because they looked bad on everybody. :tongue

My kids went to public school and I would've loved uniforms for them. Simple ones: khaki/black/navy pants and shirts in the same colors, for girls and boys. So much posturing and grief would've been avoided.

ETA: Agreeing with NinjaFingers on the uneven implementing of dress codes. My boys came home more than once in the Middle School and HS years with tales of how the girls' dress code was Draconian (my word, not theirs) but the boys' code was much less strict. The boys at school were awake enough to see how unfair it was to the girls.

kuwisdelu · Feb 6, 2015

I will say that if a school has a uniform, it should at least look good.

Albedo · Feb 6, 2015

kuwisdelu said:
I will say that if a school has a uniform, it should at least look good.

Nah, to avoid some kids getting an unfair sartorial advantage, schools should go with the dowdiest, drabbest polyester possible. It worked at my school. We all looked equally shit, and we never hit each other with frozen cats. A sheep's heart, yes (sorry, Year 7 kid, you were in the way of my target ...), but at least that was squishy.

kuwisdelu · Feb 6, 2015

Albedo said:
Nah, to avoid some kids getting an unfair sartorial advantage, schools should go with the dowdiest, drabbest polyester possible.

Can I change my vote? I'm 100% against ugly uniforms.

Putputt · Feb 6, 2015

I went to a Catholic girls school, so we had to wear a uniform. I was okay with it up until my boobs developed, then the uniform suddenly turned into a hideous thing which made me look all squashy and weird. It was just unflattering in so many ways. But the girls who had smaller boobs and had straighter silhouettes looked really good in the uniform, and so there was still judgment going on -- Who wears the uniform best/worst?

And even though we had strict rules on attire in addition to the uniform (only dark blue/black hair accesories allowed, white socks and white shoes, no makeup, no nail polish), we still managed to find ways of asserting our individuality. Minor differences became more pronounced. At one point, we sneakily started to shorten our knee-length skirts so they ended one or two inches above the knee. Our backpacks became fashion statements. So it's not like having a uniform erased our individuality or ability to express ourselves.

Overall, am I against or for uniforms? Because of my own experience with them, I'm both, I guess. I don't mind them, I also don't love them. They're just not something I feel strongly enough about to do anything with either way. They don't really solve the problems of bullying (we still had plenty of bullying in our school, and it other schools which have uniforms, as far as I know), but they are affordable and easy to clean and stuff, and they do cut down on the time it takes to get ready for school. *weak cheer*

Usher · Feb 6, 2015

The big downside was the school rivalries and it meant walking home you were identifiable by those from other schools which could lead to fights.

shadowwalker · Feb 6, 2015

I'd like to amend my vote enough to say I don't think people should have to purchase uniforms through the school (because of expense). My son's uniform was navy blue slacks; white, light blue, or yellow shirt; navy blue sweater; all easy and cheap to purchase in regular stores. (The girls had those ugly plaid jumpers which they had to buy from the school - totally not right.) I like uniforms, but they shouldn't create a hardship for parents money-wise.

kuwisdelu · Feb 6, 2015

shadowwalker said:
I'd like to amend my vote enough to say I don't think people should have to purchase uniforms through the school (because of expense).

That too. Uniforms should be cheaper. Not more expensive.

cornflake · Feb 6, 2015

Calla Lily said:
Catholic school from Kindergarten through 12th grade 1966-1979. We wore the ugliest possible plaid jumpers (1st-6th) and skirts (7th-12th). Large dark blue/dark green plaid intersected by skinny bright yellow and bright red stripes. White long- or short-sleeved blouses. Dark blue or dark green knee socks. No pantyhose allowed.

The boys wore navy blue or dark green pants and white shirts. Sweaters for boys and girls, if desired, dark blue or dark green.

The only individual choices allowed were our shoes. No sneakers. The school was an old 3-story building in the inner city and yes, we rolled our skirts up at the waist and the boys stood on the bottom flight and looked up as we climbed to catch a glimpse.

Nobody really had a lot of money and the uniforms were pricey for the time but they lasted for years. They took vanity out of the equation because they looked bad on everybody.

I'm saying!

My kids went to public school and I would've loved uniforms for them. Simple ones: khaki/black/navy pants and shirts in the same colors, for girls and boys. So much posturing and grief would've been avoided.

ETA: Agreeing with NinjaFingers on the uneven implementing of dress codes. My boys came home more than once in the Middle School and HS years with tales of how the girls' dress code was Draconian (my word, not theirs) but the boys' code was much less strict. The boys at school were awake enough to see how unfair it was to the girls.

I don't know how prevalent this still is - I'm sure it's like this plenty of places, but there are places it's not. I know boys who've been sent home because they forgot their ties, or their ties were filthy.

NaeimGiladisLegacy said:
I'm not saying they SHOULD hide bodyparts. I'm saying they should be FREE to. Being free to hide parts of your body, is in the same category as being free to expose them: it must be 100% YOUR choice, and YOUR level of comfort. Not some idiot principal's who is not walking around in YOUR body. When you have the shit beaten and teased out of you and your artwork pissed on because you're fat, why should some adult who doesn't have this problem, get to tell you to expose more of that vulnerability to get beaten right into hospital? Or hey - be one of the many suicide cases.

Do you think most fat girls for example, like having their thunder thighs jiggling around NAKED? As a set-on-fire-for-being-fat fat girl, I can guarantee you that there are a lot of uniform-wearing girls out there fantasizing about dropping out just so they can put on pants. I skipped PE for years because jiggling my legs in the mandatory shorts got me beaten with frozen-stiff dead cats and shit thrown at me, and this has impacted me to this point as I have NO exercise routine and missed out on a lot of socializing/play time, so...
My questioning the ethics of mandatory skirts would be mysogynistic according to your logic then? Guess it's more ethical to expose easy prey to the vultures.... Making girls with physical insecurities expose them, is like chaining a zebra to a tree a pride of lions are dozing under.

And there are girls uncomfortable wearing a skirt as long as knee-length. They should be respected if they feel uncomfortable with it. In case you didn't get me: I am saying every girl needs to be able to wear whatever she, individually, feels comfortable in. The opposite of what you are making my post into.

And yeah, we're talking humans. And for being obligatorily more intelligent than apes, humans aren't natural born bullies. Bullies are (self-)made, and by correct environmental upbringing and having the right values instilled, this can be changed. It's very easy, really. Bullying is no reflex, it is a deliberate action, and any and all deliberate actions can be easily refrained from I mean, my colleague has a huge forehead. I could call her Miss Billboard, but I simply don't. Simply. Don't.

@ID / License driver pics... There is a difference between an identifying feature such as a face... and thighs. You need a face to recognize a person in most/all circumstances. What do schools need bare legs for?

That's all terrible, but you're talking again, only about girls, and as if girls naturally are/will going to or should feel shame or feel uncomfortable exposing parts of their bodies.

As to identification, you said anything, and said it should be illegal, as if girls need some special protection because they're delicate flowers that can't be forced to be uncomfortable. I do, yes, feel that stuff does the opposite of empower women.

Mr Flibble said:
What she said

And did teachers not intervene?

Also this.

That stuff is not in ANY way 'normal' teasing or bullying or anything on any order I've heard of, nor do I think it has anything to do with any outfits. I mean it's not like if you were wearing pants people that fucked up would have been like 'oh, hai, want to have lunch?'

Ken · Feb 6, 2015

Usher said:
The big downside was the school rivalries and it meant walking home you were identifiable by those from other schools which could lead to fights.

... interesting consideration. Definitely a downside, especially if the uniforms have school letters or emblems on them. Example below:

"AA," Acme Academy.

School Uniforms: Good, Bad, or Ugggleeee?

School uniforms, yea or nay?

School uniforms are an overall positive thing

School uniforms are a net negative

I don't care about school uniforms, but I like to vote in polls

Crazy Cat Lady

practical experience, FTW

Ooo! Shiny new cover!

[insert witty title here]

They've been very bad, Mr Flibble

Revolutionize the World

They've been very bad, Mr Flibble

New kid...seven years ago!

Revolutionize the World

On hiatus

Revolutionize the World

Alex

Revolutionize the World

permanently suctioned to Buz's leg

empty-nester!

Revolutionize the World

practical experience, FTW