What are some practical things to think about when setting (unlawful) gunfights in a crowded city?

johnhallow

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Hey guys :)

I'm looking to write some shooty, 'splodey gunfights in and around London, so I've been reading up on guns and devouring thrillers.

What are some things you've had to think about when placing the gunfights in your thrillers? Law enforcement, bystanders, getting away, etc. that sort of thing... how do you guys get around them?

I'd love to hear any problems you ran into or managed to overcome, and anything else you'd like to throw in. As much as I want to write some inner city shootouts I'm pretty sure I'm going to mess something up... haha.
 
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PorterStarrByrd

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you've mulled over a lot of considerations ..

also
very few people are accurate with hand guns other than at very close ranges. A lot of bullets come out of automatic and semi-automatic weapons. A very large percentage of the bullets fired in a gun fight don't hit what they are supposed to. There could be someone unexpected in a crowd who is also armed and might decide to get involved.
 

Coconut

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Check out Chapter 1 of Ludlum's The Sigma Protocol. He opens on a gunfight in a crowded marketplace.

I don't think you can 'get around' any of those things. You just have to really understand the situation, for example, if you don't want cops on the scene, you need to make sure the gunfight ends faster than police response time. If you've got a crowd, depending on what you want to happen, you could have them run, hit the ground, get shot, etc...it's very much a sandbox.
 

ironmikezero

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FWIW... Remember, rounds that miss go somewhere and hit something. In real world scenarios every fired projectile must be accounted for (or otherwise explained) in the subsequent investigation. In crafting fiction this can be used to your advantage should your plot need further twists. If your story doesn't need that sort of detail, keep it simple and keep the pace up.
 

Jamesaritchie

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FWIW... Remember, rounds that miss go somewhere and hit something. In real world scenarios every fired projectile must be accounted for (or otherwise explained) in the subsequent investigation. In crafting fiction this can be used to your advantage should your plot need further twists. If your story doesn't need that sort of detail, keep it simple and keep the pace up.

Sometimes rounds that hit their target keep going, too.

Rounds only have to be accounted for when fired by the good guys. When the bad guys are shooting, there's often no way to have a clue how many rounds were fired. The best you can usually do is count spent brass, and this is often inaccurate.
 
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Jamesaritchie

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Hey guys :)

I'm looking to write some shooty, 'splodey gunfights in and around London, so I've been reading up on guns and devouring thrillers.

What are some things you've had to think about when placing the gunfights in your thrillers? Law enforcement, bystanders, getting away, etc. that sort of thing... how do you guys get around them?

I'd love to hear any problems you ran into or managed to overcome, and anything else you'd like to throw in. As much as I want to write some inner city shootouts I'm pretty sure I'm going to mess something up... haha.


I'm not sure what you mean by "get around them"?

If you're in such a gunfight, and if you want to get away, surveillance cameras are a bigger danger than police officers. London has more cameras than New York City and Chicago combined.

My advice is to find a true expert and let him read what you write about guns and gunfights. It's these things down accurately is seldom as easy as most writers think. Letting an expert read it is the best way of being accurate before the reading public starts writing nasty letters telling you everything you got wrong.
 

cmhbob

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Given that it's in London, I doubt he has to worry about bystanders opening fire. :)

You would have to consider the delay for armed police officers to arrive (or are most London cops now armed?)

Consider the stampede into nearby buildings and Tube entrances for cover, and the injuries that would happen there.

Injuries to uninvolved bystanders: direct fire (they've actually been shot, intentionally or not); ricochet; injuries from broken glass that was hit by a ricochet; injuries from the traffic crash that happens when a driver is injured or killed and loses control control of their car, lorry, or bus (although at that point you're getting in to Final Destination-type sequences.)

Traffic is going to be a mess, both into and out of the shooting scene. See if you can find some news footage of the 1997 North Hollywood shootout in Los Angeles. There's a movie called 44 Minutes, with the obvious caveat of it being a Hollywood production of a real event.

Do you have a story lined up yet, or you just want to write shoot-outs?
 

Fitch

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The best research you can do is to read (supposedly) non-fiction about gunfights. Read news stories and participant accounts about real ones. Find all the news articles you can. Read about the New York policemen that managed to wound 9 innocent bystanders with misses while trying to hit an assailant that was less than ten feet from them. Read about the gun fight between a bad guy who could shoot and NYPD officers who couldn't. Read studies about the statistics of gunfights. There are books that recount real gunfights.

Read about the infamous gunfight between two bad guys and the FBI in Miami that lead the FBI to change it's guns.

Read about the Sylmar gunfight.

There are lots of sources of information on how participation affects the participants who survive depending on their personalities. (If they are psychopaths or sociopaths they don't get PTSD, ever.) There are a lot of cases of PTSD now because after more than ten years of continuous wars there are a lot of returning soldiers. Only 10% to 15% of the population is susceptible to PTSD, but that percentage of returning combat vets is a noticeable number of people.

Go to the NRA Armed Citizen Webpage and read stories of gun fights there.

Use <insert search engine of choice> and follow links to newspaper and TV accounts of gunfights on public streets. There have been several in NYC in the past couple of years.

If it's possible, take a handgun safety class. Handle handguns. Shoot some. If possible, only write about guns you have held and shot. (If you live in England that will be very difficult.) You will be much less likely to make really dumb mistakes like 'clicking' the safety on a Glock (which doesn't have a clickable safety). Real automatic weapons, submachine guns, are almost never used in gunfights. Drug cartels, terrorists, and law enforcement are exceptions to that generality.

Read "Violence: A Writer's Guide" by Rory Miller to understand the mindset. Read "Writing Fight Scenes" by Rayne Hall for some hints on how to structure a fight scene.

Non-fiction is the source if you are trying to learn what really happens so you can structure a story that is realistic. You will have to read a lot of newspaper accounts to be able to discriminate between the agenda driven writers and the journalists who report the facts. The latter are remarkably uncommon these days.

JAR has good advice, but to consult an expert, first you have to find one. That can be a bit of a trick. The more I've learned about the subject, the harder it has been to find an expert. The real ones sell their opinion and it ain't cheap.

Fitch
 
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Fitch

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One more thing to remember: There are no rules for bad guys. They don't recognize any of societies rules or limitations. Societies rules don't apply when bad guys get into gun fights.

The only criteria is to win. It doesn't matter how. There are no style points. Cheating is good. More cheating is better. Ambush, shooting in the back, is just fine - preferred even because it's less risky. There is no consideration of collateral damage.

There is no such thing as 'fair' in a gun fight (or knife fight, or any other non sporting event fight - fair is a myth outside of sports, sometimes even in sports). There is only winning and losing.

So if the bad guy opens fire from across the street spraying bullets all over the place hitting bystanders, babies, pregnant women, there is nothing technically wrong with it as long as you don't have them do things like fire more shots than the gun holds with out reloading. There are documented cases of people shooting 30 or more rounds at each other at a distance of ten feet and missing with all of them.

Fiction is a terrible place to learn about gunfights.

People standing around pointing guns at each other waiting for the other guy to shoot first so they can lose is just preposterous. That said, hostage situations happen. The sure way to lose in a hostage situation is for the good guy to put his gun down. There is no sure way to win absent a shot that makes a direct hit on the bad guy's central nervous system - it's the only shot that assures he can't pull the trigger before he dies.

Finally, all handgun ammo sucks. There is no handgun round that guarantees a one shot stop with out a CNS hit. People can suffer a mortal wound and still fight long enough to kill their assailant. Thirty seconds to a minute isn't unheard of. Longer for people high on meth. If you want an 'almost certain' one shot stop you need a rifle, preferably thirty caliber or larger with an expanding bullet, or a 12 gage slug. Shot placement trumps caliber every time.

Fitch
 

johnhallow

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Sorry for the horrifically slow reply, I've just started a new job. My office is playing a game of let's-see-how-much-work-we-can-give-the-newbie (you know something's up when you've been at a workplace for less than a fortnight and you already know the number of every department by heart).

@Coconut, mike & james: Thanks for this! I never really considered that... and it just gave me an idea for a scene :D My bad guy's already a huge ass, but bystander casualties will take it up a notch. Realism and assholery... two birds with one stone...!

@James: This is the kind of thing I mean -- I've got a way of escaping them (with magic -- my story's a UF) but not everyone has access to it, so I'd like to cover all my bases. By "getting around" I mean my main characters fighting and escaping without the police knocking on their doors a day later.

@cmhbob: Thanks! I didn't think about traffic. That SHOULD be okay, I am thinking of writing a chase scene. I think that's another thing I'll have to follow up now... how to avoid leaving enough gun/etc. evidence to get hunted down and how to actually escape police in a car, which seems virtually impossible in Sardine Can City London. I do have a story lined up :) I'm still moving bits around, though.

So overall I guess need to read up on how exactly police track shooters/killers. I've been doing a lot of research on guns -- I knew how they worked but there's some stuff you can pick up on gun enthusiasts' YouTube channels that someone like me has no other way of learning. Let's just hope that someone seeing my searches doesn't think I'm planning some kind of alumni school shooting (heh).

@Fitch: It kinda sucks that I can't practise with handguns, or hear just how loud they are without earmuffs (for reference), but I think Old Me will thank Young Me for not ruining my hearing :p I did do some research on PTSD, so I think my heroes should be alright in that they believe in what they are doing and they have a community that supports them. From what I read, a fair amount of modern PTSD is partially a result of soldiers' societies not justifying conflicts like these like they did in the past, so there's a lack of psychological cushioning/moral justification for what they have done or gone through. I'm not sure, but I got that from an article on killing and its effect on the human psyche, which had a lot of interesting stuff about people refusing to shoot during war, etc.

Thanks a tonne for that, I'll check out the NRA page :D Real experiences are always best for this kind of research!

I'll do my best to be realistic with the injuries -- it's always thrown me off a bit when characters die instantly from non-CNS hits. I'll keep that at the back of my mind. My hero has access to a sawed-off 12 gauge and I haven't decided on his handgun yet but it's chambered in/for hunting rounds (because of the nature of his opponents -- I write urban fantasy so a lot of what they go up against is fast-healing and very resilient) or custom, magical rounds.
 
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Fitch

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Handguns used for hunting are nearly always revolvers because they are chambered in much more powerful cartridges than semi-automatics. My hunting handgun is a Ruger BlackHawk chambered in .45 colt shooting hand loads that have some serious thump. The rate of fire doesn't matter when one is hunting. The first shot with a handgun is the one that counts. Getting a second shot on an animal, that's going to bolt in a random direction, is unlikely. A handgun is mostly used for hunting at short range. In my case that would be 50 yards maximum. My old eyes don't work well enough to reliably hit a paper plate with iron sights farther than that.

I'd stay away from legitimate hunting handguns. There is a reason people don't carry them for self defense. They are big, heavy, shoot cartridges that aren't for novices, and most only hold five rounds. I've shot a S&W .460 magnum and S&W .500.

I fired exactly one shot out of the .500. I won't do that ever again. It had a Muzzle brake on it but it wrenched my wrist and it was six months before I could shoot decently again. I'm a little old man. I only know one person that 'likes' to shoot a .500 Magnum and he has hands the size of hams and fills a door way.

I fired about 10 out of the .460 but 9 of those were .45 Colt. An S&W .460 can chamber .45 Colt, .454 Cassull, and .460 S&W magnum. It hurt me less than the .500 but I wouldn't be in a hurry to shoot it again. I considered buying one until I shot it. There is a reason the used gun counter at Cabela's always has five or six of those hunting handguns in the case that have been fired only a couple of times. I've seen them with two dirty chambers, the rest clean. There is a story there.

That said, you might want to investigate the new crop of rifle caliber handguns that sort of 'look' like rifles.

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/index.php/cPath/21_580/Rifle+Type+Handguns/

The Sig Sauer P716 (link below) is available chambered in .308 Winchester, a genuine hunting cartridge powerful enough to that it's been used for nearly all game on the North American Continent other than the big bears. AKA 7.62 NATO. It might be the weapon of choice if the weather is cold enough to justify clothes that will hide it, or it can be stored in a vehicle with ready access.

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/...12B-PSB+P716+Pistol+20+1+308WIN7.62NATO+12.5"

That qualifies as a genuine semi-auto hand canon. It can be fitted with 10 and 20 round magazines. It comes with a flash hider but it could be fitted with a muzzle brake that would significantly reduce the recoil. It could also be fitted with a holographic red dot sight that would significantly enhance it's use during a gunfight because it's not necessary to have the eye perfectly aligned behind the sight. With a holographic sight, if the red dot is on the target, that's where the hole appears. I've fired one so equipped. It was a much more pleasant experience than either the .500 or .460. It's like firing a hunting rifle in one hand because it weighs as much as a hunting rifle, nearly nine pounds.

Shooting it indoors with the muzzle brake and no ear protection would leave one with ears ringing for hours, maybe forever. It was loud even with ear protection. I did not shoot it with out ear protection.

There are several on that page that are chambered in 7.62x39mm which is the cartridge used in the AK47 and a number of other rifles. It's an effective cartridge but not nearly as powerful as the 7.62 NATO.

That genra of short-barrel-hand-rifle are based on a 'stockless' AR15 design with a short barrel. They can legally have a fixture on the back that one's forearm fits in so the rifle caliber semi-auto handgun is easier to handle. People have been known to shoot them with that fixture pressed against their shoulder, but, at least in the US, that's illegal. If an ATF agent sees you do that, they will arrest you. There are a noticeable shortage of ATF Agents at gunfights, so the additional risk is negligible compared to missing.

That is also a class of gun that is easy to work on. People build them from parts. An un-serialized legal copy can be home made (but not sold unless it is serialized) from an unfinished 80% lower receiver in most states in the US. It's a fun project. It can be done with a drill press.

As you will see from the links above, they are definitely 'tactical' looking. They are concealable under the right coat but hopeless as concealed weapons except during weather that justifies a long coat of some sort.

The short barrel reduces the terminal performance compared to a normal bolt action hunting rifle, but they are still way more powerful and usable than conventional high powered hunting handguns. They are most effectively used with an anti-personnel cartridge like the Winchester PDX1. It's not a 'hunting' cartridge, it's a self defense cartridge.

In any real sense, they are pretty much useless for civilian self defense. I don't own one and don't have any desire to. I own an AR15 because it's fun to shoot but it's locked in the big safe in the basement. My Glock 19 is in the bedside safe.

A sawed off, or short barrel shotgun (AKA a Lupara by the Mafia who, at least in mythology, favored them) has the advantage of shooting a pattern that is really big across the room and being concealable. It has the disadvantage of radically reduced muzzle energy (short barrel), lots of noise (due to high muzzle pressure), and by virtue of being almost universally made from a sawed off double barrel, only two shots. One can hit a man sized target with at least a few pellets of buckshot across the room pretty much by pointing it in that direction and pulling the trigger. The individual pellets will be about as effective as a .25 Auto unless they hit the face or a critical place in the neck. Not what I'd use against a person high on Meth, never mind a creature with superpowers. Shooting a slug it would require aiming, the recoil would be huge so holding it in both hands would be a must, but the slug would be effective, at least in the sense of making a big hole.

The sawed off shotgun also has the disadvantage that possession is a jail sentence. One doesn't even have to have it loaded. Criminals stay away from guns like that. They aren't worth the additional risk.

If the Lupara is made properly it's easier to conceal than the AR15 handgun but not much. It still requires cold weather apparel but maybe not quite as cold because it's quite a bit shorter.

There is one more class of rifle that might be good in your story, the bullpup. They have a full length barrel but the way they are designed, they have a very short overall length. The Tavor bullpup
was designed in Israel and it's one fine defensive tool, but it's only available in 5.56 NATO and it's no easier to conceal than the much less expensive and more available AR15 pistols which are available with much more powerful cartridges.

Fitch
 

bombergirl69

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I am brand new to AW but I love guns and am also interested in gunfights. I am always interested in learning more. I'd agree that probably the majority of folks who hunt with handguns do so with revolvers, although there are some that do hunt with .45 semi autos, maybe with longer slides and barrels, and use +P+ ammo .I think there is also a single shot breech loading pistol that has quite following (I'm a 30.06 girl myself for hunting so I can't recall the pistol)


I think I would add (for your story) that unless people are oriented/familiar with/expecting gun fire, it will take a minute for people to move from ignoring, to "oh, it's a car backfire" to "OMG
That's GUNFIRE!" to "Where is it coming from?" to "How can I get safe?" Some people with military backgrounds or experience will recognize that sound instantly but not an average person. gunfights can last just seconds and feel like hours. Heart rate and level of arousal can influence shots! Wind for sure will influence shots. Good snipers take all this into consideration.


Different types of firearms have distinguishing "voices", so that many VN vets could tell in a firefight the deeper Pow of the American rounds from the crack of the AKs.


Shooting/being around (particularly larger caliber) firearms without any ear protection can result in ringing,particularly inside.


Don't confuse "mag" with "clip". A magazine actually feeds the ammo into the firearm (so one would load a mag, then slide the mag into the firearm). A clip is usually used to load a mag (for firearms like the M1 Garand). There are variations, of course, and lots of info out there but I hate reading about people "slamming home a clip" into their .45 or or something. There is good info (and detailed) on this.


And gunshots wounds not only hurt (a lot!) they can actually kill people! ;) Even a .22! I just say that because it's always interesting to read or see in a movie where someone gets shot with a large caliber and keeps on truckin'!


My two cents anyway!


I hope you share your firefight! Good luck and happy research!

ETA: You have likely read David Grossman's "On Killing" which is pretty good. FWIW, anyone exposed to trauma can develop PTSD, although it's very helpful when there is a lot of community support (i.e., some Native communities who had a strong warrior culture). And yes, antisocial folk, AKA "bad guys" probably wouldn't develop although they can (interesting plot twist). It's interesting if bad guys have some symptoms, as many problematic behaviors (drinking, drugging, gambling, sex, fights, etc) can be considered "avoidant" (one cluster of PTSD symptoms) which are ways to avoid the pain/distress reminders can cause.
 
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BJ Bourg

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I have a blog called Righting Crime Fiction, where I plan on publishing monthly posts on information relating to police procedures, firearms, and self defense. For those seeking firearms information, I've already published posts on Revolver Basics and Semi-Automatic Basics, complete with photos and videos.

If anyone is looking for information on a specific topic, send me a private message and I'll see what I can do.

Best,