Ky. legislature overrides 'religious freedom' veto

rugcat

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My favorite part of talking to anti-government evangelists is the inevitable "you are dumb/blind/a slave/brainwashed because you don't agree with my vision for your government."
Pretty much why I try not to talk to them. Occasionally I'm drawn in despite myself, but it really is a waste of time.
 

missesdash

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Great point about democracy being work. I work 26 hours a week and I still consider keeping current somewhat of a chore. I can't imagine working full time, having kids, taking care of a house etc while *still* making time to read up on politics. You have to really really care.
 

muravyets

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Once upon a time, when my mom was a kid, Election Day was a holiday giving at least a half day off work so people could go vote. Oh, and it was illegal to sell liquor on Election Day, too. No drunk voting because being a citizen of a democracy is serious. But with so relatively few Americans bothering to exercise their right/do their duty, that tradition was abandoned. It should be reinstated. Personally, though I can see problems with the idea, I wouldn't be opposed to mandatory voting. How's that for an anti-anti-government stance? ;)
 

Celia Cyanide

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My favorite part of talking to anti-government evangelists is the inevitable "you are dumb/blind/a slave/brainwashed because you don't agree with my vision for your government."

Indeed. There isn't anything inherently wrong with thinking your views are correct. If you think you're views are incorrect, you should probably change them. But the irony kills me.
 

Celia Cyanide

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Once upon a time, when my mom was a kid, Election Day was a holiday giving at least a half day off work so people could go vote. Oh, and it was illegal to sell liquor on Election Day, too. No drunk voting because being a citizen of a democracy is serious. But with so relatively few Americans bothering to exercise their right/do their duty, that tradition was abandoned. It should be reinstated. Personally, though I can see problems with the idea, I wouldn't be opposed to mandatory voting. How's that for an anti-anti-government stance? ;)

My sister lives in Australia, where voting is mandatory. I don't really have an opinion on that, but I find it interesting, because she says that pretty much everyone votes there. Apparently, people who, "don't believe in voting" don't feel strongly enough about that belief to practice civil disobedience for it.
 

Chrissy

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My favorite part of talking to anti-government evangelists is the inevitable "you are dumb/blind/a slave/brainwashed because you don't agree with my vision for your government."
Unfortunately, when you call them evangelists,* it becomes a pot/kettle thing.

Pretty much why I try not to talk to them. Occasionally I'm drawn in despite myself, but it really is a waste of time.
This is surely how we will all come to a meeting of the minds, or at least a respect for others' right to differing opinions, and thus, be able to live peacefully together. Bravo.




*and you're not the first to use the term, obviously; apparently I'm a "convert" - because it must be something "spiritual" or "mystical" and not at all "logical" that appeals to me about the libertarian view.
 

muravyets

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My sister lives in Australia, where voting is mandatory. I don't really have an opinion on that, but I find it interesting, because she says that pretty much everyone votes there. Apparently, people who, "don't believe in voting" don't feel strongly enough about that belief to practice civil disobedience for it.

I don't know enough about it to make a real argument for or against it. I have only anecdotal reports from friends in Australia who say, speaking from their own points of view, that by forcing all eligible voters to vote, mandatory voting dilutes the effects of extremism. On the other hand, there are a lot of things in recent Australian politics that give me serious pause, so... oh, well, nothing's perfect.
 

rugcat

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This is surely how we will all come to a meeting of the minds, or at least a respect for others' right to differing opinions, and thus, be able to live peacefully together. Bravo.
Everyone has a right to their own opinions. I'm really not interested in trying to change them. Occasionally I do try to point out particularly egregious flaws of logic, but that's really aimed at other people reading the threads who might be taken in by clever sound bites.

Not really aimed at you Chrissy, btw.
 

Chrissy

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Fair enough, and thanks.

For me, I can't shake this stupid feeling that there IS a middle ground for the majority of people when it comes to politics, to government control/reach/purpose. The problem is, neither of the two parties actually offers that middle ground.

The following is obviously ancedotal, but anyway:

I know some people who want less government control, less regulation... while at the same time, could care less about gay marriage or drug use.

I know some people who are vehemently anti-war, and that is all that matters.

I know some people who are vehemently pro-gay marriage and that is all that matters.

I know some people who want our government to stop spending so much money, leaving the inevitable legacy of debt for our children and our grandchildren, and that is all that matters.

I know some people who feel the tax system is unfair and burdensome and represses the free market, and that is all that matters.

I know a lot of people who aren't afraid of Muslims, or North Korea, or communism, or the supposed rise of Islamic extremism.

I know so many people that just want to live and let live. To not be controlled, and also to not control. To have freedom, the ability to direct their own lives and be responsible for thier own outcomes.

ALL of these people have something in common, and it's exemplified in libertarianism. As far as I can see.

ETA: and I'm not actually trying to promote "a party." I'm just trying to find the place where I want to be, and libertarianism is the closest I've come as far as what is "out there." I'm not totally opposed to anarchism, either. :D Sorry! Had to lighten it up a bit.
 
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Celia Cyanide

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I don't think it is at all. And I think that if that many people really wanted to vote for a libertarian candidate, they would.

EDIT: That's perfectly fine that libertarianism makes sense to you. But it's not necessarily going to make sense to everyone you described above.
 
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Seraph

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Chrissy, wouldn't you agree there are some freedoms we should give up for a better running society? As a for instance, and not saying you think so, but do you think people should be free to murder or steal?
 

thebloodfiend

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Chrissy, wouldn't you agree there are some freedoms we should give up for a better running society? As a for instance, and not saying you think so, but do you think people should be free to murder or steal?

I believe we've had this conversation before.

The long, long, long anarchy thread, I do believe. I, however, am too lazy to find it.


And I don't care for libertarianism or its poster child, to be quite honest.
 

Don

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My favorite part of talking to anti-government evangelists is the inevitable "you are dumb/blind/a slave/brainwashed because you don't agree with my vision for your government."
My favorite part of talking to statists is that if you even mention "the concept of reducing the power and scope of government power over individual's lives," (yeah, go reread the post) you are an anti-government evangelist who has apparently just argued for full-blown chaos in the streets and murder-for-hire being legalized. Kinda makes exactly the point I was making, that it's all or nothing in PartisanLand. Thanks to all the posters in the interim who have made my point for me. Much appreciated! :)
 
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missesdash

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My favorite part of talking to statists is that if you even mention "the concept of reducing the power and scope of government power over individual's lives," (yeah, go reread the post) you are an anti-government evangelist who has apparently just argued for full-blown chaos in the streets and murder-for-hire being legalized. Kinda makes exactly the point I was making, that it's all or nothing in PartisanLand. Thanks to all the posters in the interim who have made my point for me. Much appreciated! :)

Wait are you not anti-government? It wasn't meant as an insult, I was genuinely under the impression that you are. Nothing about that, to me, suggests murder in the streets.

And regardless, it doesn't defend the "you aren't libertarian because you simply cannot grasp my superior concepts" nonsense. Deflect all you want, it's insulting and always will be. Telling people they are too close-minded to "get it" is asinine.
 

benbradley

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Chrissy, wouldn't you agree there are some freedoms we should give up for a better running society? As a for instance, and not saying you think so, but do you think people should be free to murder or steal?
I can't imagine why you're asking this, other than my questions below.
Wait are you not anti-government? It wasn't meant as an insult, I was genuinely under the impression that you are. Nothing about that, to me, suggests murder in the streets.
Don appears to be anti BIG government (he did say REDUCE the power, not eliminate it), and that's a significant difference. He's saying that OTHERS may see him as anti-government.

Is it just my perception, or do some people really confuse libertarianism with anarchy?

Is "reducing the power of government" seen as a slippery slope?
 

missesdash

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I can't imagine why you're asking this, other than my questions below.

Don appears to be anti BIG government (he did say REDUCE the power, not eliminate it), and that's a significant difference. He's saying that OTHERS may see him as anti-government.

Is it just my perception, or do some people really confuse libertarianism with anarchy?

Is "reducing the power of government" seen as a slippery slope?

Not to me no. In fact I'd argue there's a vast difference between wanting any government at all and wanting none. I was probably confusing his views with Diana's.

I don't think many people confuse anarchy with libertarianism, but it can sometimes be hard to discern one from the other in general discussions. They're both usually talking about the same issues.
 

Celia Cyanide

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My favorite part of talking to statists is that if you even mention "the concept of reducing the power and scope of government power over individual's lives," (yeah, go reread the post) you are an anti-government evangelist who has apparently just argued for full-blown chaos in the streets and murder-for-hire being legalized. Kinda makes exactly the point I was making, that it's all or nothing in PartisanLand. Thanks to all the posters in the interim who have made my point for me. Much appreciated! :)

You still stand by your whole, "You don't believe me because you can't grasp my awesome concepts," thing, though?
 

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figaroooooooooooooo
 
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Celia Cyanide

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Is it just my perception, or do some people really confuse libertarianism with anarchy?

I think some do, yes. Most probably don't, as they're actually quite different. But they both seem to stem from a belief that government doesn't work, and that, if left alone, people will do the right thing. In my experience, some libertarians even confuse libertarianism with anarchy.
 

Haggis

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Mod note:

If anyone seems to be missing a post or two, you can find it in TIO.

Carry on
 

Celia Cyanide

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There's an idea I've been batting around for some SF which in theory would get rid of many of these problems by getting rid of republics and instituting true democracies, without representatives or parties where issues aren't voted on by parliaments or decided by presidents but put to referendums, everything put to referendums, with eligible citizens voting over the internet, which would really be critical for it to work in a timely way. Log in after diner, vote no to the latest war, log off.

1) voting over the internet sounds convenient, but iffy.

2) I don't think most people really want a true democracy. They complain about the current system, but if they had to read and vote on all those bills themselves? I think many people would prefer things the way they are.
 

missesdash

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The idea of putting everything to a referendum sounds great until we look at polls regarding civil rights of women, POC and LGBT. I think there needs to be a buffer between the majority and oppressed minorities, I'm just not sure what that is. Maybe some things shouldn't be voted on at all, but who decides what those "things" are?

But I really think we'd be doing a lot of our citizens a disservice if we left everything up to the vote.
 

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Seraph

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Well, there wouldn't be trolls or e-rage because people wouldn't vote through any kind of message board. And we'd have to figure out who are more trustworthy, the general population or representatives. As has been brought up, there are problems with representatives. They can be swayed by bribes or the profits of the companies they co-chair or who make donations, or they can abandon campaign promises. And though I think the idea's of course viable for sf I also think it's at least food for thought compared to our system.