Trigger-happy Neighborhood Watch Kills Black Teenager

escritora said:

Does anyone know the reason the girlfriend didn't call police or Trayvon's mother or father when she lost contact with him? Has she been interviewed anywhere?

Click to expand...

She's only 16 and as a minor her identity is not being revealed. I would expect she will be interviewed by the state and federal investigators.

Not sure why she would have thought to call the Sanford p.d. They were in possession of Trayvon's cell phone. They could and should have called her, but they never did. Trayvon's body was in the morgue for two or three days as a John Doe. His father had to report him as missing.

I guess the crack detectives of the Sanford p.d. never thought to call any of the phone numbers on Trayvon's phone looking for someone to identify him. Or is that detectives on crack?

Any young American of any ethnic background should be safe, period.

Click to expand...

And he had a very good point here, but nooo, he had to keep talking...

nighttimer said:

She's only 16 and as a minor her identity is not being revealed. I would expect she will be interviewed by the state and federal investigators.

Not sure why she would have thought to call the Sanford p.d. They were in possession of Trayvon's cell phone. They could and should have called her, but they never did. Trayvon's body was in the morgue for two or three days as a John Doe. His father had to report him as missing.

I guess the crack detectives of the Sanford p.d. never thought to call any of the phone numbers on Trayvon's phone looking for someone to identify him. Or is that detectives on crack?

Click to expand...

I find it odd that she heard most of everything, didn't hear from him again, and remained silent. As you say, she's 16. Maybe she didn't know what to do.

escritora said:

I find it odd that she heard most of everything, didn't hear from him again, and remained silent. As you say, she's 16. Maybe she didn't know what to do.

Click to expand...

Odd?

She was the last person to speak to Trayvon before Zimmerman killed him. She told him to run. She says she heard the initial confrontation.

I don't find it odd she remained silent. It doesn't seem too vast a reach to believe she might have been scared into silence by equal parts fear, terror and grief.

Found this info on radaronline. Doesn't answer my question, but it's an interesting tidbit.

The Sanford Police Department never questioned Trayvon's girlfriend, even though her parents contacted the cops to tell them she wanted to come in for a sit down interview.

Click to expand...

The more I hear about this story the angrier I get.

nighttimer said:

Odd?

She was the last person to speak to Trayvon before Zimmerman killed him. She told him to run. She says she heard the initial confrontation.

I don't find it odd she remained silent. It doesn't seem too vast a reach to believe she might have been scared into silence by equal parts fear, terror and grief.

Click to expand...

Yeah, odd.

ETA: As I'm searching online for information, I see some bloggers are claiming the girlfriend's account didn't happen. They don't believe the girlfriend was on the phone with him. Perhaps that's the reason (or partially the reason) for your reaction, NT? So let me be clear: I find it odd, but not because I'm questioning whether or not she was on the phone with him.

missesdash said:

She probably figured there was a fight and waited for him to call back. When he didnt, maybe she called a few times and eventually went to bed. I can see why she'd be worried, but not necessarily that she'd call the police.

There are a lot of holes in the evidence here. I'm somewhat skeptical about her account because the news reports make it seem like she only came forward a few days ago. If that's the case, I'd be extremely wary.

It's not callous to think a teenage girl would make up a story to defend her boyfriend. It would be a noble cause, but still a lie. The phone records show they were speaking. I just don't know if I believe her specifics.

Click to expand...

And why exactly would she tell a lie? To make Zimmerman look guilty?

You really think this girl is so calculating she would think, "The cops are buying Zimmerman's self-defense claim. I'll come up with a story that rips it to shreds."

nighttimer said:

Have you ever heard of a Fox News contributor fired for saying something rude, thoughtless and stupid? I think I liked it better when Fox was ignoring the story.

Geraldo Rivera proves yet again it is better to remain silent and be thought an asshole than to speak and prove you are one.

Remember: guns don't kill people. Hoodies kill people. At least Black teenage people.

Click to expand...

Just like going to a bar in a short skirt causes rape. Personal responsibility is the watchword on the right, after all, isn't it?

escritora said:

I find it odd that she heard most of everything, didn't hear from him again, and remained silent. As you say, she's 16. Maybe she didn't know what to do.

Click to expand...

She being a minor, I'd say we don't know that she kept silent, or if she did call the police, or if she called Martin's parents. Her involvement, if any, shouldn't be publicized.

ETA: Apparently, since it is reported that her parents contacted police to say she had information to give them, she did not keep silent at all. She did what a minor child should do -- she told her parents. And they did what good citizens should do -- they called the cops. It all leads back to those cops, doesn't it?

But I guess we can set aside the question of why the girlfriend did not come forward. She did come forward.

muravyets said:

She being a minor, I'd say we don't know that she kept silent, or if she did call the police, or if she called Martin's parents. Her involvement, if any, shouldn't be publicized.

ETA: Apparently, since it is reported that her parents contacted police to say she had information to give them, she did not keep silent at all. She did what a minor child should do -- she told her parents. And they did what good citizens should do -- they called the cops. It all leads back to those cops, doesn't it?

But I guess we can set aside the question of why the girlfriend did not come forward. She did come forward.

Click to expand...

From what I understand, Trayvon's father contacted her first and the story unfolds from there. From published reports it doesn't appear she went to her parents right after, or soon after, the call. It seems after Trayvon's father reached out to the teen (days later) that the girlfriend and her parents got involved. That is what I find odd.

Teenagers don't always act rationally. Who knows why there was such a delay in her coming forth? But her testimony is extremely similar to Mr. Zimmerman's and all the other witnesses. It says that Zimmerman pursued Trayvon, who was walking quickly away from him (not running). It says that Zimmerman caught up to him and confronted him, and there was a scuffle.

Beyond that, there's only details like her telling Trayvon to run and him pulling his hoodie up. She says she thinks, because of what she heard, that Trayvon was pushed...but there's no surety that Trayvon hadn't already pushed Zimmerman.

We know that they were talking to each other when the incident happened. Her testimony is in line with all other testimony given, including that of the shooter. I question the motivations of newscasters or bloggers who want to make a big deal of the gap between Trayvon's murder and his girlfriend coming forth. To me, it's akin to questioning why Trayvon had been suspended from school. Neither matters to this particular incident, and both are calculated to raise questions where there should be none.

muravyets said:

Just like going to a bar in a short skirt causes rape. Personal responsibility is the watchword on the right, after all, isn't it?

Click to expand...

Not really. Have you noticed how often they pass the blame to God?

I agree entirely with Monkey. The fact that she's a teen and a minor should tell us that it is not constructive to try to read too much significance into the timing of her actions.

First, we cannot know all her actions or the order they came in. A teen may not always do the thing that makes sense to an adult, but beyond that, minors are protected from public scrutiny both officially by law and unofficially by their parents and the tendency of the media and authorities not to turn to them first as sources. We really don't know what she did, why, or in what order.

Second, as Monkey points out, it makes no difference. All of the substantive points she reports are already corroborated by other sources, and none of the rest makes any difference to the case or what we know or don't know about it.

The only serious question about delays or failings in regards to the girlfriend are why the cops never looked at his phone to see what his last-dialed number was in an attempt to identify him. If they had, they would have gotten his girlfriend, who would have led him to his parents. The girlfriend's main contribution to this case is more evidence of the cops' failure to do their jobs.

Teenagers don't always act rationally. Who knows why there was such a delay in her coming forth? But her testimony is extremely similar to Mr. Zimmerman's and all the other witnesses. It says that Zimmerman pursued Trayvon, who was walking quickly away from him (not running). It says that Zimmerman caught up to him and confronted him, and there was a scuffle.

Click to expand...

Zimmeran stopped running after Trayvon when the dispatcher told him to and he remained on the line and answered more questions. Link

I wonder if Zimmerman started to chase him again after the call. Or if he came across Trayvon when he parked his car and waited for the police at the designated area he and the dispatcher agreed upon.

That part isn't clear to me.

I don't know if that changes anything, I'm just curious.

Beyond that, there's only details like her telling Trayvon to run and him pulling his hoodie up. She says she thinks, because of what she heard, that Trayvon was pushed...but there's no surety that Trayvon hadn't already pushed Zimmerman.

Click to expand...

From what she says, either Zimmerman pushed Trayvon twice or Zimmerman pushed Trayvon after Trayvon pushed him. I don't think we'll ever know the truth.

I question the motivations of newscasters or bloggers who want to make a big deal of the gap between Trayvon's murder and his girlfriend coming forth.

Click to expand...

I don't. It's a fair question. There may not be a logical response, people do illogical things every day. I wondered and had (nor have) any motivation beyond curiosity.

We've been discussing this whole story a lot at the office recently (I work at a law firm, but not one that does criminal work and not one in Florida), and the lawyer I work for pulled up to read the "stand your ground" statute in FL. It's the general opinion that what Zimmerman did plausibly falls under standard common-law self-defense and doesn't even need to go to stand your ground, because there is as yet, no one to contradict Zimmerman's story, not even the girlfriend based on what she has said so far. Zimmerman is likely a nutjob, but that's no actual law against that.

Zimmeran stopped running after Trayvon when the dispatcher told him to and he remained on the line and answered more questions. Link

Click to expand...

No, I don't think Zimmerman did stop pursuing Trayvon and wait for the police.

That's not the later reports show happened. And if you read the rest of the call, Zimmerman first agrees to wait somewhere...then asks if they could just call him when they're close. I believe he wanted the police to call him when they were close so he could tell them where he was--meaning he was leaving the location where he was standing to follow Trayvon further.

The time that he actually did stand still, though...that would explain why Trayvon thought he lost Zimmerman, shortly before Zimmerman reappeared and confronted him.

From what she says, either Zimmerman pushed Trayvon twice or Zimmerman pushed Trayvon after Trayvon pushed him. I don't think we'll ever know the truth.

Click to expand...

It doesn't matter, IMO. When you follow someone who is running from you in your car, then decide to get out of your car with a gun in your hand and go confront them, you have already signaled a willingness--if not outright intent--to use that gun on that person.

I don't. It's a fair question.

Click to expand...

What difference does it make to the case?

The girl's testimony is what is important to the case, and because it is corroborated by every other piece of testimony we have, it's not really in doubt. What's being questioned here is her behavior after the call was ended...and her behavior has no bearing on the killing. This is very similar, IMO, to asking why Trayvon was suspended from school--the source of much speculation--in that it has no real bearing on what happened this particular night and is being used by some to imply that maybe Trayvon wasn't a good kid.

But what if he wasn't? And what if he hung up with his girlfriend before the confrontation started, and she really didn't hear that part? What if?

It doesn't make a damned bit of difference to this case.

That's why, IMO, when people bring up issues like this as a matter of news (rather than idle forum speculation), it's an attempt to distract. To muddy the waters. To make it look as if something sinister is hiding in the "other side's" story.

Kateness said:

We've been discussing this whole story a lot at the office recently (I work at a law firm, but not one that does criminal work and not one in Florida), and the lawyer I work for pulled up to read the "stand your ground" statute in FL. It's the general opinion that what Zimmerman did plausibly falls under standard common-law self-defense and doesn't even need to go to stand your ground, because there is as yet, no one to contradict Zimmerman's story, not even the girlfriend based on what she has said so far. Zimmerman is likely a nutjob, but that's no actual law against that.

Click to expand...

I'm not a lawyer.

This is my take:

If Trayvon pushed Zimmerman first, Trayvon was asserting the Stand Your Ground law. He felt threatened. That's understandable.

Zimmerman can't claim the Stand Your Ground law when he's the one who created the threatening scenario.

That's my layman's take on the situation.

escritora said:

I'm not a lawyer.

This is my take:

If Trayvon pushed Zimmerman first, Trayvon was asserting the Stand Your Ground law. He felt threatened. That's understandable.

Zimmerman can't claim the Stand Your Ground law when he's the one who created the threatening scenario.

That's my layman's take on the situation.

Click to expand...

Not a lawyer, either, just work for them, and repeating (not necessarily 100% accurately, what they say, though I'm trying). Let's say even that Zimmerman started the confrontation. He threatened, insulted, shoved, whatever. Trayvon responds, standing his ground. He's stronger, quicker, whatever, than Zimmerman, and Zimmerman ends up on the ground. We know that Zimmerman was bleeding from the back of his head and had a broken or bloody nose at the end of all this. Trayvon is on top of him, beating him up. Common-law says you can respond to force with "reasonable" force. What's reasonable in that scenario? He can't retreat. if he's stuck on his back, he can't necessarily turn the situation around.

I'm not defending Zimmerman and I'm not defending Trayvon. I just don't think that Zimmerman can really be prosecuted, and that's why he wasn't arrested. It sucks, Zimmerman is likely a scumbag, but "stand your ground" is getting involved in an unnecessary way.

Monkey said:

No, I don't think Zimmerman did stop pursuing Trayvon and wait for the police.

It doesn't matter, IMO. When you follow someone who is running from you in your car, then decide to get out of your car with a gun in your hand and go confront them, you have already signaled a willingness--if not outright intent--to use that gun on that person.

Click to expand...

Based on the information so far, I'm not as sure as you are that Zimmerman followed Trayvon in his car.

As for the rest of your post, I don't have anything new to add. We disagree and that's fine.

Every gun safety class I have taken emphasizes that you do not draw your gun unless you intend to shoot. When you shoot, you shoot to kill (i.e. you aim at the big targets--torso, chest, head). It is difficult for an amateur to intentionally shoot to maim (legs, shoulder, arms).

The moment Zimmerman drew his gun and headed out of the car, he made the decision to confront. Many lawyers, including one who wrote the bill, have stated that Stand Your Ground was not intended to allow for people pursuing someone and initiating a confrontation.

Kateness said:

Not a lawyer, either, just work for them, and repeating (not necessarily 100% accurately, what they say, though I'm trying). Let's say even that Zimmerman started the confrontation. He threatened, insulted, shoved, whatever. Trayvon responds, standing his ground. He's stronger, quicker, whatever, than Zimmerman, and Zimmerman ends up on the ground. We know that Zimmerman was bleeding from the back of his head and had a broken or bloody nose at the end of all this. Trayvon is on top of him, beating him up. Common-law says you can respond to force with "reasonable" force. What's reasonable in that scenario? He can't retreat. if he's stuck on his back, he can't necessarily turn the situation around.

I'm not defending Zimmerman and I'm not defending Trayvon. I just don't think that Zimmerman can really be prosecuted, and that's why he wasn't arrested. It sucks, Zimmerman is likely a scumbag, but "stand your ground" is getting involved in an unnecessary way.

Click to expand...

What is Common-law in this scenario?

That Trayvon can claim Stand Your Ground, and in the middle of the fight Zimmerman can claim another law to shoot him?

Sorry for all the questions. I'm trying to understand.

Kateness said:

Not a lawyer, either, just work for them, and repeating (not necessarily 100% accurately, what they say, though I'm trying). Let's say even that Zimmerman started the confrontation. He threatened, insulted, shoved, whatever. Trayvon responds, standing his ground. He's stronger, quicker, whatever, than Zimmerman, and Zimmerman ends up on the ground. We know that Zimmerman was bleeding from the back of his head and had a broken or bloody nose at the end of all this. Trayvon is on top of him, beating him up. Common-law says you can respond to force with "reasonable" force. What's reasonable in that scenario? He can't retreat. if he's stuck on his back, he can't necessarily turn the situation around.

I'm not defending Zimmerman and I'm not defending Trayvon. I just don't think that Zimmerman can really be prosecuted, and that's why he wasn't arrested. It sucks, Zimmerman is likely a scumbag, but "stand your ground" is getting involved in an unnecessary way.

Click to expand...

Do we really know all that about Zimmerman's condition? Whose account for it do we have? Zimmerman's? The cops'? Both of those sources have already been called into serious question. What corroboration is there?

Further, since when is it the job of the cops to make decisions for the prosecutor as to whether a case can be brought? Oh, right, since the State of Florida decided that cops at a crime scene should be the ones to make a snap judgment of "Oh, you'll never get convicted. Off you go. Have a nice day, sir." No need for any pesky interviews or investigation to find out what happened, or review of the law in the case, or any of that pointless guff.

The way the Florida law is written, the cops can get away with letting Zimmerman get away with killing Trayvon Martin. But that doesn't make it a done deal that Zimmerman could not have been detained, or should not have been detained, or could not have been prosecuted, even under the Florida law. The law's own primary sponsor in the state legislature has said as much, as has every legal expert I've heard comment on the case so far, until this conversation.

I have to be blunt and say I think the speculative conclusion of your employers is crap. Like so many of the excuses of the police in this case, this interpretation depends on assertions of facts not in evidence, unreliable and/or disputed sources, and a twisted "it could happen" logic of how this event could possibly appear to have been self defense.

But as fantastical as the scenario is, even if we stipulate to all of it, none of it justifies the responding police force not detaining and questioning Zimmerman or investigating the case or even attempting to ID the dead young man. Not even under the existing Florida law.

vsrenard said:

Every gun safety class I have taken emphasizes that you do not draw your gun unless you intend to shoot. When you shoot, you shoot to kill (i.e. you aim at the big targets--torso, chest, head). It is difficult for an amateur to intentionally shoot to maim (legs, shoulder, arms).

The moment Zimmerman drew his gun and headed out of the car, he made the decision to confront. Many lawyers, including one who wrote the bill, have stated that Stand Your Ground was not intended to allow for people pursuing someone and initiating a confrontation.

Click to expand...

Can you link to a report that says Zimmerman drew his gun and then got out of his car?

Monkey said:

From what I understand, Rivera suggested poc shouldn't wear hoodies, lest they be thought thugs and thereby increase the likelihood of this sort of violence.

It's very similar to suggesting women shouldn't wear short skirts, lest they be thought sluts and increase the likelihood of their rape.

It's disgusting blame-the-victim bullshit.

Click to expand...

Agreed, that what a person wears should have NO bearing on his or her safety. That is victim-blaming.

But I think there is a nuance here between blaming-the-rape victim and blaming-the-shot/murdered victim. In the case of rape, there have been numerous studies showing no correlation between rape and clothing. The attributes that a rapist looks for fall more along the lines of 'is s/he vulnerable.' However, in terms of correlating (stereotypical) attitudes about someone and clothing--I have not found a good study on this. I believe it's entirely probable that an idiot like Zimmerman would look at what a person is wearing and make snap judgments.

This in no way means I support the idea that the hoodie is to blame, or that poc should not wear hoodies.