Being offended by the term 'fair'

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glutton

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Are there many readers out there who are offended by the use of this term with regard to women? I just ran across this for the first time and I was pretty surprised, especially in the context... I used the term in a summary of my writing style, which described how I favor 'hardcore warriors of the fairer gender' ie. girls who defeat dozens of large armored men at once and survive/keep fighting with multiple wounds that would each kill a normal man, and I was using 'fair' for 1) irony 2) to create an archaic feel that calls to mind the heroes and legends of old and 3) just to sound more interesting than saying 'hardcore female warriors'. What do you think, is the term 'fair' that offensive, basically to the point of being a racial slur, or have I just encountered overly PC zealotry as I'm inclined to believe?
 

NeuroFizz

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I'm not a PC zealot, and I have no basal objection to the phrase, however in your context it seems contradictory, to the point of seeming to be cutesy word-play. This seems to scrape against the grain of your female heroes and of your stories. Could that be the basis of the objections?
 

glutton

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it seems contradictory, to the point of seeming to be cutesy word-play

This is the case, intentionally, but did not seem to be the cause of objection... which seems to be that the use of the word fair implies that all women are weak and helpless.
 

Sonsofthepharaohs

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Are there many readers out there who are offended by the use of this term with regard to women? [...] I used the term in a summary of my writing style, which described how I favor 'hardcore warriors of the fairer gender'

I think offence can only be taken if you misunderstand your use of the word 'gender' - personally I'd use the more traditional 'fairer sex' just because it sounds less clunky, and it's also somewhat idiomatic. People know that 'fairer sex' refers to women as being not only more attractive, but more rational and less violent than men (hence your attempt at irony).

2) to create an archaic feel that calls to mind the heroes and legends of old

Then I'd definitely use 'fairer sex' because that's the traditional phrase. When you want to tap into the meaning of an archaism, you can't change the archaism to update the terminology ;)
 

shadowwalker

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Yeah, I'd use the traditional phrase of "fairer sex". Anybody who wants to get offended - well, they probably want to get offended. :tongue
 

glutton

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I usually use the term 'fairer sex' but changed it to 'gender' for variety. :p
 

Putputt

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Mmm...I certainly don't find it "offensive, basically to the point of being a racial slur"! Having said that though, "hardcore warriors of the fairer gender" sounds somewhat clunky to me. I agree with NeuroFizz that it ends up a bit cutesy, like you're using it in an ironic way.

It kinda reminded me of a discussion on Joe Abercrombie's blog some time ago about Avengers Assemble, where he mentioned being disappointed by Black Widow's character.

"I’m not saying Black Widow is an awful character, necessarily, but as the one and only female character I did think the writers had made her rely on being a woman a lot as her weapon. She kicked ass at the start, but it was implied she’d lulled her adversaries into a false sense of security by wearing a sexy dress."

Actual post here

That's what "fairer gender" made me think of: that these hardass women warriors fit the usual trope (i.e. go into battle wearing chainmail bikini) :D
 

Buffysquirrel

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I don't know about being offended, but I'd certainly roll my eyes, and when I got to 'girls' I'd stop reading.

I can imagine that 'fair', in the sense of light-skinned and/or light-haired could strike someone as racist.
 
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glutton

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That's what "fairer gender" made me think of: that these hardass women warriors fit the usual trope (i.e. go into battle wearing chainmail bikini) :D

That could be an issue but does 'fairer gender/sex' imply it moreso than the plainer 'hardcore female warriors'?

I didn't use 'girls' in my original description although I did in this thread as a broader term for females/women.
 

ChaosTitan

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I usually use the term 'fairer sex' but changed it to 'gender' for variety. :p

We've had various threads on this in the past, so I won't hijack this one with a derail, but please bear in mind that sex and gender are not interchangeable. They have their own meanings.

Google "sex versus gender" for a quick overview.
 

amschilling

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I'm not offended by it, though it does sound somewhat old-fashioned to me. My sister, who takes the gender "bias" out of every word (ie: womyn instead of wo"man", persyn, etc)? Yeah, she'd hate it. But she also wouldn't read a book about hardass women warriors, because that's not her literary cup of tea.
 

seun

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I wouldn't go so far as to call it offensive, but it does strike me as naff and old-fashioned.
 

Putputt

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That could be an issue but does 'fairer gender/sex' imply it moreso than the plainer 'hardcore female warriors'?

It does to me, because it highlights their attractiveness as something vital.

But to be honest I'm not offended by it. It's just a really tired trope, so my reaction would be "Ehh, yet another sexed-to-the-max female character, kicking ass in her Mini Dress of Power complete with Cleavage Window." The only hardcore female warrior I can think of who doesn't rely on being part of the "fairer gender" to lull male adversaries into a false sense of security before kicking his ass is Brienne of Tarth from ASOIAF. So naw, it doesn't offend me, but it doesn't grab my interest either.

Did you ask whoever it was that got offended WHY it offended them?
 

LindaJeanne

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"Fair" bugs me because its traditional use takes for granted that lighter skin and hair are inherently and obviously more beautiful than darker.

I don't know about being offended, but I'd certainly roll my eyes, and when I got to 'girls' I'd stop reading.

This.

It does to me, because it highlights their attractiveness as something vital.

But to be honest I'm not offended by it. It's just a really tired trope, so my reaction would be "Ehh, yet another sexed-to-the-max female character, kicking ass in her Mini Dress of Power complete with Cleavage Window."
This too.

Did you ask whether the offence was on racial grounds, gender grounds, or both?
 
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glutton

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Did you ask whoever it was that got offended WHY it offended them?

She said it was sexist and the (probably trolling) person who said basically 'watch out, some people on this board are going to be offended by this' said the term implied that women are weak and helpless. So no, non-racial.

The only hardcore female warrior I can think of who doesn't rely on being part of the "fairer gender" to lull male adversaries into a false sense of security before kicking his ass is Brienne of Tarth from ASOIAF.

I think most of mine walk around with too scar tissue and reputation to lull many into a false sense of security.
 

jari_k

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I wouldn't be offended, but would find it a peculiar phrase to come from a contemporary. It seems very old fashioned. Other than that, there's no issue with it, for me.

Edit: If the character you're writing comes from a society with strong stereotypes about male and female roles, using such a phrase makes sense. It could help convey background and childhood beliefs.
 
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Amadan

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I'd roll my eyes at anyone using the phrase "fairer sex" in a non-ironic fashion.
 

leahzero

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Not offensive, but it strikes me as tone-deaf and likely insensitive/uninformed toward topics of gender, sexism, realistic portrayals of females, etc. If I came across this term and it was not being used ironically to mock sexism, I would probably stop reading, unless there were some seriously amazing qualities in the story.

The fact that you reductively dismiss it as "overly PC zealotry" tells me a lot about your attitude toward women, and pretty much ensures that this is not the kind of writing I'm interested in reading.

Hope this helps you understand where the aversion is coming from.
 

Hydrogen

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When was the last time you heard someone use that in conversation or, really, anywhere? Please don't cite writing that's 60 years old.

I've never heard anyone use the term fair to describe a woman in any context.
 
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