Describing skin tones and ethnicities...

shaldna said:

What if she is black with a big ass?

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I'd include 10 pages of description as she admires it in a mirror.

kuwisdelu said:

I'd include 10 pages of description as she admires it in a mirror.

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I'm still fascinated with this thing about big asses. Don't get me wrong, I have a big ass myself and so I think it's brilliant, but I'd love to know where the obsession with them came from.

Is it a guy thing? Or a fashion thing?

backslashbaby said:

Not only does it add flavor, but you won't have that Friends problem. I pretty much figured those kids were kinda racist, honestly. If you are writing a story about a big, cosmopolitan city, it's weird to only have white folks around! If it's a more introverted story, of course YMMV.

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I can't help but grind my teeth at this as I've heard it so many times and it's so absolutely wrong. They were targeting a demographic which was white. That doesn't make them racist. Even after people went after them for it and they started adding black characters in high level positions they were still accused of never having any black people. The writers didn't sit there and say "let's create a white metropolitan utopia."
And especially since the show focused on small sections of the city it makes sense to have a white dominated population since there are plenty of neighborhoods that have by far a majority of white people. This is also why when you saw them at hospital scenes you'd suddenly start seeing black people.

All this really does is add a new way to accuse someone of being racist. It used to be only based on your beliefs/actions, now with the emergence of the "Spike Lee attitude" you have to include black people in everything you write or you're racist.

Does it show that I'm a "Friends" fan?

PGK said:

I can't help but grind my teeth at this as I've heard it so many times and it's so absolutely wrong. They were targeting a demographic which was white. That doesn't make them racist. Even after people went after them for it and they started adding black characters in high level positions they were still accused of never having any black people. The writers didn't sit there and say "let's create a white metropolitan utopia."
And especially since the show focused on small sections of the city it makes sense to have a white dominated population since there are plenty of neighborhoods that have by far a majority of white people. This is also why when you saw them at hospital scenes you'd suddenly start seeing black people.

All this really does is add a new way to accuse someone of being racist. It used to be only based on your beliefs/actions, now with the emergence of the "Spike Lee attitude" you have to include black people in everything you write or you're racist.

Does it show that I'm a "Friends" fan?

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If you live in New Freaking York and even the barristas you talk to are all white everywhere you go, there's something up, imho.

Some folks in NYC may pull it off, don't get me wrong

backslashbaby said:

If you live in New Freaking York and even the barristas you talk to are all white everywhere you go, there's something up, imho.

Some folks in NYC may pull it off, don't get me wrong

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That is the absolute truth. In New York City, you do NOT live in a totally white world. Yes, there are neighborhoods with more white people -- but they aren't populated by struggling twentysomethings who are breaking into acting, serving coffee and working in the restaurant business. And even those neighborhoods (UWS, UES) are significantly more diverse than "Friends" ever was. That said, "Friends" didn't invent this problem; most of TV unthinkingly follows it. But it deserves to get called out every time.

If race or ethnicity or nationality is important to the story, include it. If it's not, don't. Just like anything else - include what you need to to further the story and in your own words, because it's your story. Strictly from a cynical point of view - if one group of people isn't offended by your descriptions of race, another group of people will be offended by your depiction of something else.

Writing not to offend is not writing. It's censorship. JMO.

shaldna said:

I'm still fascinated with this thing about big asses. Don't get me wrong, I have a big ass myself and so I think it's brilliant, but I'd love to know where the obsession with them came from.

Is it a guy thing? Or a fashion thing?

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Oh, it's definitely a guy thing, only not with all guys. Some guys simply find plump butts attractive. Others get their sexual buttons pushed by large breasts. Others may prefer a tall, thin woman with very nice legs. It's all very personal and subjective, just as reading is. You may write that a woman has a big butt with one intention in mind (portraying her as overweight and unattractive), and yet may have the opposite effect on certain readers. Some guys might consider this a positive characterization.

I didn’t explain it properly, sorry. Supposing you mention that a woman is black, and she is a main character, then you would describe her at an appropriate stage and in context.

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That is a tad different, and fair enough with your description - but....Just 'black' or 'white' gives me nothing but a not very subtle stereotype tbh. If you're going to take the time to describe her, why not give us a hint as to what sort of black or white she is? Use it, as you would any other detail you're going to describe. Make it a part of the voice of the narrator, or do something other than just say it right out.

Skin tone is a large part of what we first see about another person and to use one of two simplified extremes seems... a wasted opportunity to paint a picture with a great detail ( Okay not for every character I'm sure. But still.) Kinda like saying the sea was blue. Unnesccesary -- unless you're going to say something interesting about the colour. In which case 'It was blue' doesn't really have much of a ring to it.

In otehr words if you're going to use skin colour in a description, then use it.

Sorry, I'm ill and rambling. I had one of those fever dreams where you find the answer to life the universe and everything ( well, it was going to revolutionise my writing anyway) and I dreamt I wrote it down, only I didn't

It's a balacing act. If I leave out racial descriptors, and too many readers will just assume all my characters are white. But if I use them badly, which is all too easy, I risk coming off as racist or just clueless.

Two personal rules I have when describing race is a) don't make white people the default from which everyone else deviates, i.e. describing people as "exotic" or "unusual" or "striking" just because they're not white, and b) try to stay away from the food metaphors. No chocolate, no coffee, no peaches and cream.

I'm pretty sure I still sound clueless a lot, but these rules have improved my writing, even if just by making my descriptions less cliched.

I have to admit that I hate it when I can tell people are including ethnic minorities just to try and seem more multi cultural.

This all reminds me of the Fox 5 newscasts here in NY. In a stretch to be politically correct, whenever there's a criminal at large, and the police are looking for tips, the writers go out of their way to NOT give a description of the wanted perp. 'Police are looking for a man about five-nine with a moustache and pronounced limp,' they say.

Is he white? black? Hispanic? Asian? Arabic? Stop being so damned worried about claims of racism and tell us the single most identifiable feature - his ethnicity - so I know what to look for. Next thing I know, in fear of sexism, they won't be telling us if the alleged perp is male or female.


Regards,

Jack

shaldna said:

I have to admit that I hate it when I can tell people are including ethnic minorities just to try and seem more multi cultural.

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Did y'all have those McDonald's commercials that seemed to use the exact percentages of the population (and still no Native Americans )?

Appearing contrived is always bad, but if some places look like that, they look like that. It depends on where you are.

Keep in mind that it's all about your narrator, too. Your descriptions of any given character should reflect the narrative POV. And even if you're writing 3rd omni, the narrative voice isn't necessarily your voice. It can fascinating and very hard to force yourself to craft a narrative voice that is from a different racial or ethnic POV than your own. Because then you have to redefine notions of Other.

If you're in the racial or ethnic majority where you live, well, you'll be seeing yourself and those around you through a different filter than if you're in the minority.

Redzilla said:

Keep in mind that it's all about your narrator, too. Your descriptions of any given character should reflect the narrative POV. And even if you're writing 3rd omni, the narrative voice isn't necessarily your voice.

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Exactly. If I were to write a story with a black protagonist, I would certainly have no qualms about including dialogue to the order of: 'Who's that white guy they hired in Accounting?' or 'He's this white guy I know. Really cool.'

I can see how if you're a writer in a predominantly white area, you might think twice about the usage, but here in NY, you hear it every day on the subway. It's really no big deal.

Regards,

Jack

Redzilla said:

Keep in mind that it's all about your narrator, too. Your descriptions of any given character should reflect the narrative POV. And even if you're writing 3rd omni, the narrative voice isn't necessarily your voice. It can fascinating and very hard to force yourself to craft a narrative voice that is from a different racial or ethnic POV than your own. Because then you have to redefine notions of Other.

If you're in the racial or ethnic majority where you live, well, you'll be seeing yourself and those around you through a different filter than if you're in the minority.

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Agreed. In one of my YA novels, I have two white characters who play very prominent roles, but the story is actually narrated by a black guy. I think I do a good job at depicting the white guys' speech patterns and teen lingo (which is markedly different than black teens), but I wouldn't try to write a book from their perspective. As stated above, it's only convincing and effective when a writer is able to capture the whole perspective and life-shaping outlook of a different ethnic group. I'm just not that skillful, and probably will never be. As a 40 YO black man, I don't foresee myself spending too much time inside a white teenagers' world.

shaldna said:

I'm still fascinated with this thing about big asses. Don't get me wrong, I have a big ass myself and so I think it's brilliant, but I'd love to know where the obsession with them came from.

Is it a guy thing? Or a fashion thing?

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It's an old as dirt thing.

One of the most interesting revelations of race I've read was in Stephen King's It. The reader goes through about half of the very long novel before discovering that one of the MCs is black. At least, I went through half the novel without realizing this.

I wonder if King planned this as a thought-provoking gotcha for those of us who defaulted the character to white.

Don't pander and don't consciously not pander and or bring attention to either option.

Know your audience and be aware of the cultural frame of reference from where you launch your narrative.

I'd love to know where the obsession with them came from.

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Some guys like to walk on a pebbled beach. Others, over mountainous terrain. Others still, rather dangle from the precipices.

To a mountain climber, a pebble just isn't a mountain worthy of conquer. To a guy that prefers to walk over the pebbles, the pebbles are the only mountains worth the climb. Don't get me started on the ones that prefer to dangle from the precipices.


Humans are weird.

Do not make up some fancy way of describing skin tone, unless you're writing a romance novel or the character is supposed to be seductive. Write the facts and then no one can have a go at you.

I think there's only an implicit bias (I wouldn't call it racism) when we assume everyone is white unless specified. I mean, we don't say "my friend Jack is white." Then, why, when describing my friend Joe, we have to say, "Joe is black"? Does it matter? Why doesn't it matter that Jack is white then?

Think about it. Like it or not, bias does come into play, even if we don't want to admit.

If you don't describe a character as "white," then don't suddenly describe other characters as black, Asian, etc. because now you're singling out certain characters and making the default assumption that "if I don't specify, they must be white." It is racial bias no matter how you look at it. Worse, if you try to be "clever" or "writerly" when describing the character's dark skin tone when you said nothing about the white character's skin tone. So why bring all that attention to the black character?

I am an Asian writer, so do you expect all my characters are Asian by default? If not, do you expect my characters are white because I write English-language fiction based on America? What if my story is set in Australia or France? What if the author is black -- do you then assume all her characters are black, too?

In my WIP, I have characters of all races and nationalities. I don't usually describe their race or skin colors -- sometimes it's very obvious when a character is Vietnamese or Malay or Chinese or Japanese. Most of the time, it just isn't important to note if Lt. Andrews is black or white -- he's American. That's all you need to know.

This is an example which is only three hours old and explains my attitude to the vexed question posed by the OP.

I went shopping in a large supermarket with my partner and immediately on entering with my trolley spotted a woman a few yards in front of me with a bum that demanded attention. It had a life of its own, two cheeks working in perfect harmony, jutting out provocatively.

Trying to be sensible, I avoided looking whenever my partner glanced my way and studied the food labels instead. I did collide with another trolley, driven by a man who was similarly smitten, and we foolishly apologised to each other.

I could write of the lucky woman’s skin tone, or the rings she was wearing, or her shoes; I observed those too, but what would it matter?

An ass is an ass, whether it’s black, white, or pink. The pink aspect could lead to a discussion lasting over thousands of pages, but I’m not going to start it.

Right, if you don't describe yourself or your partner's races, then why does it matter if the woman is white, black, Asian, etc.? If you consider mentioning the races of yourself unnecessary, then it would be equally unnecessary to mention the other person's, unless it has a point. It would be absurd to write:

"I, a Caucasian, went shopping in a large supermarket with my white partner and immediately on entering with my trolley I spotted a black woman a few yards in front of me..."

Well I wasn't saying you HAD to - just that if you were going to describe skin...People are people. If they need describing, describe them in a useful, engaging manner no matter what colour they are. Even if they're sky blue with purple spots. Especially if they're sky blue with purple spots. If you don't need to describe them, then don't. Simples.

And I think being confronted with a bum like a bag full of ferrets is enough to make anyone not have skin tone in the forefront of their mind

I'm in the school that descriptions should be kept brief and to the point. You can describe every piece of jewelry, clothing, hair style, eye color... a laundry list of things you can do to describe a character. That's tedious. We need to understand what is relevant and important. To me, unless the race of the person is important or relevant, skip it, just as you would skip the eye and hair color -- unless, of course, those are relevant information.

And when you do describe someone's skin color, etc. keep it simple and brief. No need to go all poetic about it.

unless, of course, those are relevant information.

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A lot depends on what is important to your narrator / POV character rather than you, the author.