Why such animosity towards fan works in the original fiction community?

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Jamesaritchie

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I don't have any animosity towards fanfic, but the plain fact is most of it sucks like a black hole, and much of it is done against the wishes of the original writer.

The first means I am not going to be reading any of it because life is short, and I have thousands of books to read that don't suck like a black hole. The second means I'm not going to be reading any of it because I think writing fanfic when the original writer doesn't want you to is is not a nice thing to do. Respect that writer's work and opinion, and maybe others will respect your work and opinion.

But maybe the short answer to the question of , "What do you think of fanfic?" is, "I really don't."
 

veinglory

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I don't think it is reasonable to act like these are agreed black and white categories. If I write a work in spec, does it stop becoming fan fic the second the rights holder chooses to buy it? The second a work goes out of copyright does all its fan fic stop being fan fic? I see fan fic as a modern synonym for pastiche.
 

Hapax Legomenon

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I don't have any animosity towards fanfic, but the plain fact is most of it sucks like a black hole, and much of it is done against the wishes of the original writer.

The first is fiction in general -- have you ever wandered into Wattpad or Fictionpress? And the second, I don't know if that's true at all. I don't think most writers care much.
 

kuwisdelu

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I don't think it is reasonable to act like these are agreed black and white categories. If I write a work in spec, does it stop becoming fan fic the second the rights holder chooses to buy it? The second a work goes out of copyright does all its fan fic stop being fan fic? I see fan fic as a modern synonym for pastiche.

I'm trying to think about this analytically, and — keeping in mind I'm a "death of the author" kind of guy — I think the primary difference that arises between "fanfic" and licensed work is canonicity.

Which leads me to think about canonicity and how it is decided. For example, Disney is going to be carving up the canonicity of the Star Wars expanded universe, so what really defines "canon"? I don't think legality and legal "ownership" is enough to justify a philosophic argument regarding the nature and legitimacy of art and storytelling.

So here's what I think: canonicity is what readers believe it is. Interestingly, I think this can hold true both for fiction and also for religious texts. What makes a work canon or not is whether its intended audience regards it as canon.

Obviously, officially licensed work (especially anything by the original writer or creator) tends to have an innate advantage in that regard.

So I would say "fanfic" is work that uses canonical material, is non-transcendent (i.e., doesn't create its own canon), and that fans do not consider canonical. Your work ceases to be fanfic when fans accept it as canon.
 
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Kylabelle

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I would not say he was writing it in his capacity as a fan. I would say he was writing it in his capacity as a screenwriter who was hired to write a screenplay. Feel free to have a different definition, because it doesn't really matter.

You know the difference.

And what is that difference?


Guys, let's chill this a little, okay?

Mooky, if the opinions of others in the thread don't matter to you, I'd appreciate it if you would lay off challenging them. If they do matter, then please reduce the attitude.

James, I'd rather you not presume to know what the other members know, and question their questions.

There are some legitimate questions and distinctions that can be explored, but if you can't do that peaceably, take it outside.

Thanks.
 

Hapax Legomenon

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I guess I'm not a "death of the author" type person and would consider fanfic to be a matter of distance from the author. Things done after the original author's death would definitely be fanfiction, like all modern Sherlock Holmes adaptations. Things done under tight control of the original author, even if they were written by someone else would not be fanfiction, like the Harry Potter movies. I think things where there are just so many "parts," like long-running TV where the original writer is still on board, Spiderman comics where there are just so many of them that I'm guessing Stan Lee and others have loose control, is a "gray" area.

Then again this creates a weird situation where Spider-Man comics are probably not fanfiction while Superman comics are, but I guess I'm okay with that.
 

Lillith1991

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The suckage factor of a majority of fanfics is why I like sites like Delphic Expanse, who control writing quality and require submited works to of been beta'd. But I also acknowledge that very large archive like AO3 or Fanfiction.net can't control the quality of the writing because of sheer size alone. Though for some strange reason AO3 tends to have better quality than fanfiction.net. They have no way of appropriately moderating such things, which makes quality control impossible.

ETA: I've seen some aweful writing on places like fictionpress and Wattpad as some here have. I'm just as inclined to go yuck at those, because sucky writing is inexcusable for me.
[SUB]*is fixing the outline for a Hobbit/Avenger crossover, and rewriting for a LOTR one-shot as she checks on the thread*[/SUB]
 
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kuwisdelu

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Things done after the original author's death would definitely be fanfiction, like all modern Sherlock Holmes adaptations.

I would consider most modern Sherlock Holmes re-tellings to be creating their own canon, loosely based on the canon of the original, rather than actually being adaptations.

Things done under tight control of the original author, even if they were written by someone else would not be fanfiction, like the Harry Potter movies. I think things where there are just so many "parts," like long-running TV where the original writer is still on board, Spiderman comics where there are just so many of them that I'm guessing Stan Lee and others have loose control, is a "gray" area.

What would you consider a work written by (or "close to") the original writer, but which is not intended by the creator to be canonical? Is that fanfic, or something else?

And what happens when the original creator sells ownership of the original? If George Lucas wrote a non-licensed Star Wars story, would it be fanfic, or something else?
 
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Hapax Legomenon

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The suckage factor of a majority of fanfics is why I like sites like Delphic Expanse, who control writing quality and require submited works to of been beta'd. But I also acknowledge that very large archive like AO3 or Fanfiction.net can't control the quality of the writing because of sheer size alone. Though for some strange reason AO3 tends to have better quality than fanfiction.net. They have no way of appropriately moderating such things, which makes quality control impossible.

[SUB]*is fixing the outline for a Hobbit/Avenger crossover, and rewriting for a LOTR one-shot as she checks on the thread*[/SUB]

AO3 works on an invite-only system which probably accounts for the increased quality.
 

Lillith1991

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AO3 works on an invite-only system which probably accounts for the increased quality.

This is true, and something I'm greatful for. They also have a better filing system than fanfiction.net. Much less tear my eyes out worthy than Fanfiction.net for me and many others I would assume.

Though I have seen some utter crap writing there, and been disturbed by how rabid some of the fans on there can be.
 

MookyMcD

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Though I have seen some utter crap writing there, and been disturbed by how rabid some of the fans on there can be.

That might be one of the keys right there, if we're trying to find a place to draw a distinction. "Fan" derives from "fanatic" (which originally meant a person who was possessed) and goes beyond a person with a passing interest in or fondness for something. Or someone professionally engaged to perform a task.

And, in light of the above mod post, if I seem to have been out of line to anyone on this thread, I certainly had no intention of doing so.
:Shrug:

eta -- By "Feel free to have a different definition, because it doesn't really matter," I did not mean "My opinion counts, your opinion does not matter." I meant we can all just have whatever definition of fan fic we want to use, it doesn't really matter whether our opinions on the definition all line up.
 
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Torgo

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I don't think it is reasonable to act like these are agreed black and white categories. If I write a work in spec, does it stop becoming fan fic the second the rights holder chooses to buy it?

Yeah, and the way a lot of TV and screenplay writers used to (still do?) get work was by writing spec scripts that were never produced, but showed various kinds of competence and engagement.
 

Kitty27

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If a novel I created made such an impact that someone would want to write fanfic about it,I would feel like I have truly made it as an author.

I'd be quite flattered.

About the only issue I'd have is if I created child characters and someone felt the need to write NC17 fanfic with them. Hell,no on that kind of thing. Then I can understand a writer being upset. We all have varying personalities and I can also understand writers who don't want their hard earned work tampered with.

Of course,I'd be pressed if someone tried to make money off my work. We aren't here for our work making someone else money.

Other than that,fans could have at it.
 

Lillith1991

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That might be one of the keys right there, if we're trying to find a place to draw a distinction. "Fan" derives from "fanatic" (which originally meant a person who was possessed) and goes beyond a person with a passing interest in or fondness for something. Or someone professionally engaged to perform a task.

Yea, some fans really are fantatics. I can not say the number of times I've seen some character villainized just to get other characters together whether its a straight, lesbian, gay, or other relationship. I remember a story I loved that was slash featuring Bilbo/Thorin from the Hobbit movie. Some rabid Fili/Kili shippers had the nerve to call the writer homophobic for pairing I believe Fili with a pretty awesome OC character who happened to be female. The main pairing for the story was slash!!! Fili and the female OC played minor roles in the story!!

People who are rabid about their personal ship in fanfiction to the point they think attacking others work because it isn't their ship actually disgust me, because they do such things and you CAN'T reason with them in any way. But I'm likely to have the same response to people who are rabid sexist, racist, homophobes, transiphobes etc. I try to lump them together with the other nuts, because fans that rabid to me are the same level as nuts as people I can see and hear doing similar nutso rants based on things like race, gender, orientation and faith etc.


Ps. This doesn't mean I'm against people loving their fanfiction fandoms or pairings in said fandoms. I love my Hoshi/T'Pol fics for Enterprise, and my predominantly nonstraight favored pairings in other fanfiction. But I will not bash good or awesome fics that don't feature them together because it's not the authors romance preference. That would be out of line.
 
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Lillith1991

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I never fail to dislike OC in fanfic.

But are you going to attack the writer over it? To me I can not like something, but I'm not going to waste time ripping the author a new one over it unless it's something that's reportable under the site guidelines, and even then I won't tear them a new one but report it instead like a reasonable person.
 

Filigree

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I have read a few great OCs in fan fiction, but those were from already brilliant authors. Most of the lesser authors' OCs come across as cardboard or barely disguised Mary Sues.

James is right: most fan fiction sucks. But I've seen slushpiles and self-pubbed original fiction, and most of that sucks, too.

Maybe I hang out with more professional authors and tolerant readers on AO3, but I have never been involved in or seen the kinds of flamewar described. But then, I make clear that I am an equal opportunity relationshipper, as long as the author can make their pairing/grouping work. I certainly would not tolerate that behavior around me. I don't tend to call it out, I just stop reading and associating with that author or social group.
 

hikarinotsubasa

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Well, I'd be nothing but flattered if someone wrote fanfic about my characters. Yes, some fanfic is just porn with familiar characters or self-inserts, but a lot of it is intelligent commentary on canon. A lot of the fic I used to write began with a premise like "How would this story have been different if it took place in a different setting?" or "How would the third part of the trilogy have been different if THIS had happened in the second part instead of THAT?" Whether or not an individual reader likes the result or whether the original author would agree with my analysis, there WAS analysis that went into it, and I could just as well have written an academic paper about the importance of the setting in the original or the significance of a particular plot point. But it's more fun to do it in fiction form. :)

Sticking with the Star Wars example because it's a fandom I know.. ESB and ROTJ aren't fanfiction, they're co-written (or maybe ghostwritten) sequels. George Lucas came up with the storylines and collaborated with (arguably better) writers to get them into their final form. Are the Pern novels co-written by Anne and Todd McCaffrey fanfiction? Then neither is a script with a story treatment by Lucas and actual dialogue by Kasdan.

The licensed novels and comics though.... some of them go SO far from the spirit and "feel" of the movies that I wouldn't call those fanfiction either. Were the authors fans? Some of them, I think, are. But writing for hire is very different than writing solely for the love of the fandom.

A lot of fanfic is technically flawed, simply because the writers are amateur and inexperienced (but a lot of them work hard on their craft and improve!). But a lot of those licensed novels are just awful, even if they're typo-free. Every once in awhile you'll get a gem that is both well-written AND an insightful look at the themes of the original... but I'd say there are just as many of those gems in fanfic as there are in the licensed novels. The main difference is that there are more BAD fanfics than there are BAD licensed novels out there, so you may have to work a little harder to find them.

I think fanfic has a better reputation than it used to, now that a lot of successful authors are embracing and being open about their fanfiction roots.
 

TopHat

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I tried to write fan fiction once. It felt like my brain had caught a bad case of pneumonia.


It just makes me feel ill. It's like using someone else's tooth brush.



But I have nothing against it myself.
 

Ken

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On a positive note, fanfic is how a fair number of writers on AW have got their start as they have confessed at one time or another. It was a, "springboard," for them. In that regard fanfic is neat. As to the negative side of fanfic that's already been adequately expressed so I won't go there, especially as the subject seems an emotionally charged one. Last thing I want is to get involved in a shouting match. Shameful to be sure.
 

cornflake

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Yeah, and the way a lot of TV and screenplay writers used to (still do?) get work was by writing spec scripts that were never produced, but showed various kinds of competence and engagement.

Indeed specs are still the norm. I'd never call them fanfic. They're meant to demonstrate particular skills.

The difference, for me, is work/not work. I don't think it's all the same, professional endeavour vs. hobby. I'm not in any way denigrating either, but I don't think they're equivalent.

If someone is contracted to write a Star Trek book, it doesn't mean the person is a big Star Trek fan. The person probably is, at least to some extent, but you never know.

If someone offered me a million bucks to write a Star Wars sequel I'd spend a lot of time figuring out the Star Wars world, because I'm not a fan of Star Wars. I'd take the job, and it wouldn't be fanfic. By some people's definition, it would be, because it's a sequel, but that's based in the assumption that anyone writing a follow-up or derivative work is necessarily a fan. Fans who do it for the love of the world are; people who do it for money are working. The groups may overlap at points, but the work, imo, doesn't.

Someone might be a Yankees fan, and spend time online in sports forums bitching about the pitching staff. If that person is also a sportswriter, the two outputs are not the same. One is work, one is fan ranting.
 
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