Uncomfortable with calling out an editor.

ShaunHorton · Aug 21, 2014

So, here is my story.

When I was about 3/4th of the way through my first book, I started looking around for an editor. I was recommended to a lady by my uncle that knew her and I looked her up.

She had a professional looking website with references, and quite a few books out that she had supposedly worked on. I sent her an inquiry and we emailed back and forth a bit. I arranged to get into her schedule, finished my book, went over it a few times myself, and then sent it off to her.

This was before I found AW and Writer Beware.

Things went well at first, and she made edits and gave me some feedback to work with. It went back and forth for a while, and I was pretty satisfied, or at least I thought I was.

The trouble first started when I read an interview she did. She was asked about what she was currently working on, and in her list of works, there was nothing I could specifically pick my book out on, except for one that was merely commented on as a "middle-grade horror". I didn't know what that meant at the time, but it was the only thing I could see which might be my book. I emailed her and asked what that was, and received no answer. About this point we were on the second round of edits and I also asked her what she thought of the book as a whole. I received a bland "I'll tell you when we're done." She did inquire as to what my plans were, and at that point I hadn't considered self-publishing but she urged me to look into and consider it.

The final edits came through, and I paid what we had agreed upon (it came to $385 for a book that barely broke 50,000 words). I asked again about her opinion of it as well as the middle-grade comment and again received no answer.

I looked into the self-publishing and did eventually decide to go that route, paying for cover art and putting it out myself through Kindle and Createspace.

Most reviews outside of friends and family were horrible. I tried to patch some of the holes, but after one eloquent dissection, I pulled the book from sale.

When I eventually found what middle-grade meant, I was not happy, as that had never been my intention for the work and was something which had not been discussed. Adding to my frustrations was comments by several people about the poor and/or lack of editing in the book. It is also interesting to note that the editor does not list my book among others that she has worked on

Anyway, in the meantime, this particular editor had been picked up by a small press with a fair reputation, and she seems to have continued picking up clients that are just too happy to rave about her 'skills'.

So, there you have it. While I take the blame for several of the mistakes I know I made, I can't help but feel like she pretty much took my money and ran, leaving me with poor editing, an erroneous age-bracket, and a final lack of communication. While it might just be one back book in her backlist (which nobody knows about as she doesn't list it), it pretty much ensured a huge black-mark on my writing career by helping to make my debut novel a bomb.

Yet, she's gone on to work with a fairly reputable publisher and made a bit of a name for herself in certain genre's, so I can't help but feel uncomfortable calling her out on all of it, and this is something I've been simmering with for almost a full year now. The last thing I need right now is people turning on me for slamming their editor, whether justified with proof or not.

I just don't know what, if anything, to do about it.

snowpea · Aug 21, 2014

ShaunHorton said:
So, here is my story.

When I was about 3/4th of the way through my first book, I started looking around for an editor. I was recommended to a lady by my uncle that knew her and I looked her up.

She had a professional looking website with references, and quite a few books out that she had supposedly worked on. I sent her an inquiry and we emailed back and forth a bit. I arranged to get into her schedule, finished my book, went over it a few times myself, and then sent it off to her.

This was before I found AW and Writer Beware.

Things went well at first, and she made edits and gave me some feedback to work with. It went back and forth for a while, and I was pretty satisfied, or at least I thought I was.

The trouble first started when I read an interview she did. She was asked about what she was currently working on, and in her list of works, there was nothing I could specifically pick my book out on, except for one that was merely commented on as a "middle-grade horror". I didn't know what that meant at the time, but it was the only thing I could see which might be my book. I emailed her and asked what that was, and received no answer. About this point we were on the second round of edits and I also asked her what she thought of the book as a whole. I received a bland "I'll tell you when we're done." She did inquire as to what my plans were, and at that point I hadn't considered self-publishing but she urged me to look into and consider it.

The final edits came through, and I paid what we had agreed upon (it came to $385 for a book that barely broke 50,000 words). I asked again about her opinion of it as well as the middle-grade comment and again received no answer.

I looked into the self-publishing and did eventually decide to go that route, paying for cover art and putting it out myself through Kindle and Createspace.

Most reviews outside of friends and family were horrible. I tried to patch some of the holes, but after one eloquent dissection, I pulled the book from sale.

When I eventually found what middle-grade meant, I was not happy, as that had never been my intention for the work and was something which had not been discussed. Adding to my frustrations was comments by several people about the poor and/or lack of editing in the book. It is also interesting to note that the editor does not list my book among others that she has worked on

Anyway, in the meantime, this particular editor had been picked up by a small press with a fair reputation, and she seems to have continued picking up clients that are just too happy to rave about her 'skills'.

So, there you have it. While I take the blame for several of the mistakes I know I made, I can't help but feel like she pretty much took my money and ran, leaving me with poor editing, an erroneous age-bracket, and a final lack of communication. While it might just be one back book in her backlist (which nobody knows about as she doesn't list it), it pretty much ensured a huge black-mark on my writing career by helping to make my debut novel a bomb.

Yet, she's gone on to work with a fairly reputable publisher and made a bit of a name for herself in certain genre's, so I can't help but feel uncomfortable calling her out on all of it, and this is something I've been simmering with for almost a full year now. The last thing I need right now is people turning on me for slamming their editor, whether justified with proof or not.

I just don't know what, if anything, to do about it.

First of all, how did she decide it was middle grade? Because of the character's age?

Second of all, I don't think you should "call her out." It would be very bad publicity for you and make you look petty.

Jamesaritchie · Aug 21, 2014

I'm not sure what to say here. A never know what to tell a writer who can't edit his own work. Being able to edit your own work is one of the most important parts of being a writer. As for middle grade, a book is either middle grade, or it isn't. If what you wrote actually fits the middle grade category, your intent doesn't matter. It is middle grade.

Honestly, I'd say chalk this up to a learning experience. Editors, even good ones, can't do your job for you. As a writer, you have to write a book that fits where you want it to fit, you have to make sure it's well-written, and you have to be able to make certain it's well-edited.

veinglory · Aug 21, 2014

The few times I have used a paid editor we started with my description of the tone, sub-genre etc of the book and my goals for it. Then the editor would mark out things that seemed inconsistent with that goal. I think it pays to go in with a strong vision and be willing/able to bail out at various milestone points if things are not going well.

T Robinson · Aug 21, 2014

Hindsight is 20/20. Like James said, chalk it up to a learning experience.

For future reference, the amount you paid should have been a clue. True professional editors are not going to work that cheap. Go to EFA.org and see some of the average prices for different levels of work.

ShaunHorton · Aug 21, 2014

Well, to say I know more now than I did then would certainly be a nominee for understatement of the year.

At the time though, I figured if it wasn't ready for professional editing I would've been told as much.

And this was a slow-burn horror story, with the main character as a 37 year old woman. (Apparently very, VERY slow).

Polenth · Aug 21, 2014

The question I'd ask: do you think the edits represented a substantial improvement in the book? An editor can't guarantee a book leaves the process at publishable quality or that the book will be well received. They only have the material and author's skill to work with, and that might not be up to publishable standards. They should be making an improvement to the work though.

ShaunHorton · Aug 21, 2014

Polenth said:
The question I'd ask: do you think the edits represented a substantial improvement in the book? An editor can't guarantee a book leaves the process at publishable quality or that the book will be well received. They only have the material and author's skill to work with, and that might not be up to publishable standards. They should be making an improvement to the work though.

I thought so at the time, but as I said, I've had multiple people ask and comment on the editing, including asking if any was even done.

I just get the feeling between urging me to self-publish, the ending of communication on it, and no interest in spreading the word about it like she does with every other book she works on, that she knew it was bad, but had no interest in saying anything to me about it.

oceansoul · Aug 21, 2014

$385 for 50,000 words doesn't sound that expensive to me. Most of the reputable editors I've seen charge at least 400 - and that's in £s.

I think you have to be very introspective and harsh with yourself before you even consider calling someone out publicly. What kinds of editing issues were these reviews talking about? Typos or something that falls into your realm - like excessive wordiness, insane use of the passive voice, failed plot strands etc. An editor can't fix fundamental writing problems in a piece of work without changing it to such an extent that it becomes their work rather than the author's.

Now, it may be that the editor in question simply did a really sloppy job on your project. If you have specific examples, for instance:

On pages 122, 87, 345, 129 you missed 6 typos, failed to fix dialogue punctuation etc. then that's indicative of a sloppy job, and I would take it up with her privately.

snowpea · Aug 21, 2014

ShaunHorton said:
I thought so at the time, but as I said, I've had multiple people ask and comment on the editing, including asking if any was even done.

I just get the feeling between urging me to self-publish, the ending of communication on it, and no interest in spreading the word about it like she does with every other book she works on, that she knew it was bad, but had no interest in saying anything to me about it.

TBH I don't think you can expect your editor to do your publicity for you.

ShaunHorton · Aug 21, 2014

snowpea said:
TBH I don't think you can expect your editor to do your publicity for you.

I don't mean doing the whole publicity thing, but every other book she's done, she's happy to post and re-post about it on her professional and personal FB pages. I never saw that when my book was finished.

Hoplite · Aug 21, 2014

ShaunHorton said:
I don't mean doing the whole publicity thing, but every other book she's done, she's happy to post and re-post about it on her professional and personal FB pages. I never saw that when my book was finished.

You're sure she's promoted every other book she's done? Would you know if there were other works she didn't promote?

ShaunHorton · Aug 21, 2014

Hoplite said:
You're sure she's promoted every other book she's done? Would you know if there were other works she didn't promote?

Well, I can't say I know she's promoted EVERY other book she's done, but the feeds of her personal and professional FB pages were extremely constant with

"Another project now published! Check out ---------!!"

Obviously, I shouldn't have even said this much though.

Liosse de Velishaf · Aug 21, 2014

I'd say chalk it up to a learning experience. And remember never to work with this person again. There's all sorts of reasons things could have gone as they did. It's certainly possible that you got screwed by this editor, but it's a waste of your time and reputation to start a fight with her, even if she did mess up.

Lady Chipmunk · Aug 21, 2014

I'm going to throw a recommendation in here in addition to the chalking it up to learning. Get a writers' group or beta readers. It can be really hard to look at your own work objectively, and another pair of eyes on something, someone likely to be honest is invaluable, and this type of critique is not always covered by a paid editor no matter how good or not they are. It's simply not part of the job.

JournoWriter · Aug 21, 2014

I'm not sure why you say you're uncomfortable with calling her out, when you provide enough information in this post and on your website to ID her in five minutes of Googling. Either put something up in Bewares or don't, but don't dance around the subject.

And she *does* list you as a client on her site.

ShaunHorton · Aug 21, 2014

JournoWriter said:
I'm not sure why you say you're uncomfortable with calling her out, when you provide enough information in this post and on your website to ID her in five minutes of Googling. Either put something up in Bewares or don't, but don't dance around the subject.

And she *does* list you as a client on her site.

It's been extensively updated since last I looked. Thanks for that. I have doubts that it would've been that easy if she hadn't though.

Well, guess it's just my fuck-up all around then.

snowpea · Aug 21, 2014

Yes and I pretty much ID'd the book you were talking about on Amazon.... I think, though, it would be better for you to just let it go and move on.

chompers · Aug 21, 2014

ShaunHorton said:
I just get the feeling between urging me to self-publish, the ending of communication on it, and no interest in spreading the word about it like she does with every other book she works on, that she knew it was bad, but had no interest in saying anything to me about it.

This is the impression that I got too. Personally, I would want to know who this editor is, if this is the case, even if the errors fell back on you. Because if she saw some major flaws, she should have mentioned it to you. An editor is there to help you produce the best work possible. Now, yes, writers can ignore any feedback, but there should be at least feedback on those problem areas she saw. If she's ignoring them and sweeping it under the rug, then that's not an editor I'd want to work with. An editor needs to be upfront with you. They're the last people I would want to smile, pat my head, say it's pretty, then walk off.

Cyia · Aug 21, 2014

What sort of edits did you agree to pay her for? If she was only doing a content edit, then she wasn't going line-by-line, which may be the sort of mistakes your readers are honing in on. You have to make it clear upfront what you expect in an edit, and what the editor is offering for the agreed upon price. You might have expected a complete edit, and she may have been looking for plot holes and character-trait consistency or doing a search-and-destroy on typos and missed punctuation.

All edits are not created equal.

J. Tanner · Aug 21, 2014

Cyia said:
What sort of edits did you agree to pay her for? If she was only doing a content edit, then she wasn't going line-by-line, which may be the sort of mistakes your readers are honing in on. You have to make it clear upfront what you expect in an edit, and what the editor is offering for the agreed upon price. You might have expected a complete edit, and she may have been looking for plot holes and character-trait consistency or doing a search-and-destroy on typos and missed punctuation.

All edits are not created equal.

Yep. It's pretty critical to know going in if this was supposed to be a developmental edit (story quality) or a copyedit (grammar, typos, etc).

The pricing definitely feels like light copyediting pricing, and while it would be nice for such an editor to let you know they don't think the story is ready for publishing, it's not really their job to do so. Their job is to basically clean up the sentence level prose.

I could see this being mismatched expectations.

(As several have said, I don't think "calling out" the editor gains you or other writers anything even if my guess is wrong.)

Old Hack · Aug 22, 2014

Oh, Shaun. I wish we lived closer. We could share a few coffees and talk this through.

Please don't feel that you've made foolish mistakes, or are somehow to blame here: I'm not surprised that you, and many other writers, have unrealistic expectations of the editors they hire: how are you to know how editing works, and what editors do, if you've never worked with one before, and have never had it explained to you?

I don't think there's anything to be gained from naming this editor, or taking her to task in any way. Partly because I'm not sure where the fault lies: it could be that she didn't behave professionally towards you; but judging from some of the misconceptions you've made in your posts in this thread, it might also be that your expectations of what she would do for you and how it would all work were flawed, and you can't blame her for that. I don't know for sure, because I've not seen the correspondence between you and so on, but this is a possibility you should consider.

What you could usefully do is find out more about how editing works, and make sure your expectations are more realistic before you go through this again. It would be time well spent.

I also think you could do with learning to revise your own works more effectively so that your editors can take it to a much higher level. I've read the first few pages of the book concerned and there's a lot you could have done to tighten it up. I highly recommend the Self Editing course that Debi Alper and Emma Darwin run for writers: I think it's part of the Writers' Workshop. I know several writers who have taken the course and all speak highly of it; and Debi and Emma are thoughtful, insightful women and very talented writers too. It would give you skills you could carry over to all your books, and might be worth looking at.

Filigree · Aug 22, 2014

My thoughts as well. There's nothing good about pointing fingers here, especially since I don't know what level of editing you really paid for.

Aggressive self-revision is probably the first priority for anyone considering self-publishing. The more work you do, the less you'll have to pay a freelance editor. That's why writing books, workshops, and literary agents often stress 'polishing' a mms as much as possible before submitting it.

It's a learning experience. I was there, recently, as I revised a 17K novella for possible self-publishing. I was on the verge of paying for a great pro editor, but my agent and beta readers showed me ways to do the work myself. It's now at 44K, and a much better book. (And I'm trying commercial submissions before falling back on self-publishing.)

Old Hack · Aug 22, 2014

Shaun, why don't you try putting a section of the book up in SYW? It might help you see what you can do with the help of a few good critiques, and it definitely won't hurt. (Much!)

RedWombat · Aug 22, 2014

In my own experience, with both small press, big trade, and freelance editors, you should get two to four editing passes on the book, minimum.

1. Structural: "The story isn't working, this bit is slow, this character is unlikeable. What if we move this scene here and cut all that? I feel like this is left hanging. Etc."

2. Line: "You slid into passive voice here. You're head-hopping confusingly on this page. You've used the word "swiftly" three times on this page. You said that already. Before you said this. Maybe move this description here. Why would she say this, when he said that?" Etc.

If the story is reasonably structurally sound, you can combine 1&2, however you will probably need at least two passes to make sure the edits you made work better. Fortunately, this can sometimes be combined with...

3. Copy edits: "Typo, typo, wrong word, lay/lie confusion, typo, pick a capitalization scheme and commit, typo, WTF is with you and commas, did you buy them in bulk?"

I pay a friend who happens to be a professional editor $10 per thousand words, which is DIRT CHEAP and I am getting the discount rate because I once pulled her out of an empty swimming pool covered in slime, which took a rope and a tree and eventually she will forget about this act of minor heroism in the face of my comma problem and start charging what she is worth.

I have another editor of my acquaintance who only does copy edits, no structural, won't do it if you ask. My primary editor for my middle-grade series doesn't copy edit, except in passing--there are dedicated copy editors the house sends it out to for the final pass.

We can't know the circumstances, but I suspect you and the editor may have suffered a mismatch in expectations for what sort of edits you were getting...(Terms like "line and "structural" may vary--check specifics to make sure you know what you're getting.)

Uncomfortable with calling out an editor.

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