Confess your sins

morngnstar said:

I tend to run on sentences, in a completely grammatical way, mind you, by connecting various dependent clauses in a way that is entirely understandable to me, but can tend to confuse other people

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Then you are not writing for communication with readers. If you really want to do that, you need to learn some straightforward principles of grammar and punctuation. Google "Purdue OWL", and pay attention to what they have to offer.

caw

morngnstar said:

Forgive me authors, for I have sinned.

I have used dialogue tags other than "said" almost exclusively.

Gah. Fix that?

I began my novel from the POV of a secondary character.

I begin sentences with conjunctions. I think my high school English teacher said that was wrong. Instead the sentence should be joined to the previous one by a comma. But I think often a period reflects the significant pause I would make if it were speech.

Is your ms. meant to be read aloud?

I tend to run on sentences, in a completely grammatical way, mind you, by connecting various dependent clauses in a way that is entirely understandable to me, but can tend to confuse other people whose minds don't work as structurally as mine. In fact in most cases the sentence can be broken up. The parts can be presented independently. The reader can infer their logical connection.

If people need to infer a logical connection, I'm guessing the sentences aren't completely grammatically correct. Regardless, er, fix that? Why would you want to write something in a convoluted way that'd make people have to ponder each sentence?

I'm never quite sure when you should use a colon, semicolon, comma, or dash(es) to set off a related but independent clause without a conjunction: it seems to depend on the way the clauses are related - use a colon for example if the latter explains the former - but sometimes I think it's just a bad idea altogether; the right punctuation was a period.

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There are many resources online and in print that will clear that up.

I'm not sure what the point of your post was.

Repent your sins, my child, and go forth and write some more.

There's nothing wrong with starting sentences with conjunctions. The teachers who tell students that this is incorrect grammar are talking out of their asses, or their students are misunderstanding what they are actually being told. Look at some actual published writing, fiction and nonfiction. You will see numerous examples of this usage. Also check out the various style manuals and the Oxford Dictionary and see what they have to say.

http://www.quickanddirtytips.com/education/grammar/can-i-start-a-sentence-with-a-conjunction

http://grammarist.com/grammar/conjunctions-to-start-sentences/

http://grammar.ccc.commnet.edu/grammar/conjunctions.htm

In fiction, the narrative often sounds like the voice of the pov character, so it's a moot question anyway. Even things that are genuinely non grammatical (like fragments) can be just fine if it's the way your pov character would put it. Like any other sentence structure, however, they should be used for a reason.

If your beta readers are telling you that you're starting too many sentences with contractions, or that you're using too many fragments (or whatever), it may mean that you're not doing it in a way that works. In the end, the purpose of prose is to communicate clearly, and with fiction, it's to engage and delight your readers.

Another thirty seconds wasted.

The 'do not start a sentence with a conjunction' dictum is almost as out of date as the one about not ending a sentence with a preposition. I agree with what you say about a full stop reflecting speech patterns better, and I think this has a lot to do with voice. As Roxx said, a lot depends on your POV character.

morngnstar said:

I'm never quite sure when you should use a colon, semicolon, comma, or dash(es) to set off a related but independent clause without a conjunction: it seems to depend on the way the clauses are related - use a colon for example if the latter explains the former - but sometimes I think it's just a bad idea altogether; the right punctuation was a period.

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Er... yeah, you need to sort that out. It's a bit of a mess.

As a card-carrying atheist and from a protestant background, I have never been in a confessional. So I'm not exactly sure what to do in situations like this.

Do you want absolution for your sins? Say a few Hail Marys (sp - "Maries"?) and all will be forgiven? Or should you promise never to do these things again? Or are you hoping that these things aren't really sins? Yay - go dialogue tags other than said!

I'm guessing - just guessing - that there is a kind of league table for sins. Right at the top we have the murders and other gruesome stuff. Somewhere around the middle we get to the frauds and embezzlement. And bumping along the bottom we have minor stuff, like not giving money to a beggar or coveting thy neighbour's ass.

And I think it's the same with writing. If an author commits a major sin, then my judgement as the reader is simple. I close the book. And probably never read anything by that author again. Write a 1 star review on Goodreads. Tell my friends not to read it.

A writing sin around the middle of the table? Then I might give the book a formal warning. A yellow card. Do that again and I'll close the book. It's a red card for a second bookable offence.

Minor sins, sinettes, sinlings? I might not even notice. I'd give you the benefit of the doubt. I would carry on reading, maybe with a slight curl of an eyebrow.

How do your sins rate on my league table?

1. Using a dialogue tag other than said occasionally is less than a minor sin. Using non-said tags a lot is a medium. Using them almost exclusively? Sorry that's close to an insta-close for me. A book would have to have something else going for it for me to persevere with a lot of non-saids.

2. Starting with the POV of a secondary character? Hardly a sin at all if it's done well.

3. Starting with a conjunction? Not a sin. Joining sentences with a comma - minor sin.

4. Run on sentences? Minor sin if I can understand them. Medium sin if I lose the thread once or twice. Major sin if I repeatedly can't understand what you are saying.

5. Creative use of colonery, semi or otherwise? Depends on whether I can understand what you are saying. Defaulting to separate sentences is preferable to using punctuation you don't understand.

All in all - what's the judgement? Some rules are made to be broken. Others are there for a very good reason. And the ultimate judgement will not be made by fellow writers. It will be made by the readers.

I like to occasionally split a few infinitives.

morngnstar said:

Also note that the thread title is an imperative. Anyone else care to confess sins?

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I poked a badger with a spoon?

(And I sometimes like to throw a question mark in when it's not a question, but only in informal writing, never in my novel)

I write what I want, how I want. I fully expect everybody to love it.

I am delusional.



I ate Cheezits for breakfast today. Right now I'm drinking cold coffee. I may not get out of my pjs.

I'm disappointed that only punctuation, tags and sentence structure are being discussed as sins. These are veneal sins at best. Graver sins would include info dumping, as-you-know-Bob dialogue, filtering, coincidences that help the protagonist, character violation and Mary Sue/Larry Stu MCs.

I use too many dashes. And probably--no, definitely--too many adverbs.

I have long feared that my sins would return to visit me, and the cost is more than I can bear.

kkbe said:

I ate Cheezits for breakfast today. Right now I'm drinking cold coffee. I may not get out of my pjs.

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Wow, we are like twins or summat - I had mini cheddars for dinner last night, drink cold tea all the time, and haven't the slightest intention of getting out of my PJs all day

*high fives*

kkbe said:

I write what I want, how I want. I fully expect everybody to love it.

I am delusional.



I ate Cheezits for breakfast today. Right now I'm drinking cold coffee. I may not get out of my pjs.

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I'm like you, but I expect everyone to hate it.

Kallithrix said:

The 'do not start a sentence with a conjunction' dictum is almost as out of date as the one about not ending a sentence with a preposition.

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I don't think it's out of date at all. It was never aimed at fiction, except where English teachers were concerned. English teachers seldom teach writing fiction, they teach formal writing, and formal writing has different rules.

That said, I wish more writers would stop using conjunctions to start sentences. It's fine with occasional use, but it gets old very, very fast, and often means teh writer needs to use one sentence rather than two, or needs to stop and think. Conjunctions are most often used as a knee jerk reaction, and when this happens, and it happens a lot, the sentence isn't as good as it could be.

As for not ending a sentence with a preposition, far more often than not, this is a good idea. Like anything else, it sometimes makes for a good sentence, but chances are it won't. As a rule, it may be outdated, but as a guideline, it's something writers should examine closely.

There's almost always a better way to write the sentence. Often, the sentence is greatly improved by simply deleting the preposition.

Rules? No, not really, but they're still extremely good guidelines, and every case of each should be examined closely, made to justify its existence.

morngnstar said:

You did what!? No seriously, what did you do? Was it like what I did right there?

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Hehehehe, maybe I'll let the fabulous Mr Izzard explain:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9v799OVORFY

morngnstar said:

Oops, now I also have an interrobang sin to confess.

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Sorry, but that is an unpardonable sin. Go straight to hell, do not collect 200 pounds. No absolution for yew!

Spacing ellipses:

. . . instead of ...

I’ve been putting off querying a recently completed, read-by-ten-betas manuscript. Well, that’s not completely true. I did send out two QLs, but to notoriously slow, famous for no agents, and written in an arrogant voice. Self-sabotage—that’s my confession (for today!).


Oh, yeah, one more thing (reader related confession)…recaps of the previous book in a series/sequel/trilogy annoy the #@*! out me.

morngnstar said:

The standard fix is worse than the disease for which it is a cure. But yes, usually the sentence can be restructured without the dependent clause at all.

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From an editor's standpoint, I think too many writers try to repair bad sentences, rather than writing a brand new sentence that's better in every way. "Repairing" is fast and easy. Writing a brand new sentence from scratch is time-consuming and difficult.

My sin: I use actions between dialogue instead of dialogue tags.