Wordcount Versus Ramble

Hapax Legomenon · Aug 8, 2014

Everyone talks about wordcount and how it's important for novels and SF/F tends to run much longer than novels of other genres. I keep hearing about people whose manuscripts for SF/F are 150-200k plus and I think I may end up having the opposite problem.

I write drafts all in one go and chop them up later. Probably the biggest and most evident part of my prose is that I ramble. I write very long, complex sentences that are oftentimes not even necessary with clauses reversed what they should be. In fact, when I was writing academic papers, I would spend a significant amount of time un-reversing my sentences -- it became a standard part of my editing process. For me, making better prose often means taking a machete to my work.

So I guess what I'm worried about is if I finish the first draft, even if it's long enough to be a manuscript, by the time I'm done editing it'll probably be too short.

Does anyone else here write rambly prose and trim significantly? Does this significantly alter your wordcount in the end? If your manuscript ends up too short, what do you do?

Filigree · Aug 8, 2014

I ramble. I make a point of splitting the worst sentences during revision. I don't always lose words that way, but the reading is easier.

Michael Steven · Aug 9, 2014

I used to ramble but after spending time studying and learning the craft I tend to make the first draft more terse than needed. During edits my word counts often shrink even when I punch up the scenes, mainly because I find sections that are too out of synch with the characters and remove them.

Terse or not, though, my manuscripts are still long. My first was 495K that I divided up into three. I edited and edited and edited the first part to one ready for query (125K down to 113K). I'm now editing the second part. I have a follow on manuscript currently at 200K that I estimate will wind up at about twice that.

That's me, though. I like big books. I like stories with some meat on the bones rather than trying to chew on jerky.

Layla Nahar · Aug 9, 2014

I found early on as I was doing this, a wee tendency to write run-on sentences. One of the things I did was to finish my writing session by reading aloud my work for the day. Those clumsy, too-long sentences exposed themselves pretty quickly and I developed a sense, as I was writing, of what was a difficult sentence. I now write them much (by quite a bit) less than I used to.

Old Hack · Aug 9, 2014

I ramble.

I don't worry about it when I'm writing my first draft. I slice it all out when I revise. I have been known to cut my manuscripts by a quarter, and it all helps improve my writing.

Your book won't work if it's too wordy. Write it down the best you can, revise it, and then consider the word count. But don't leave it less tightly-polished because you worry it'll be too short if you cut all those extraneous words: you'll never sell flabby prose.

Hapax Legomenon · Aug 9, 2014

So you write 100k, and then slice it down to 75k... I mean, you can't sell a 75k sci-fi novel. It's way too short. And 75k isn't a novella, either.

Old Hack · Aug 9, 2014

You write the story you want to or have to write.

You revise it until it's as tight as it can be, and the story is complete.

If the story you've written is big enough for a novel, it will either be novel-length at this point or you'll realise there are aspects to it that you should extend, in which case you do that.

If it isn't big enough for a novel, you'll be able to revise it downwards so that it becomes a novella. Or even a short.

What you don't do is pad out a story which isn't big enough to be a novel in an attempt to turn it into one.

WriteMinded · Aug 9, 2014

I don't ramble. I have high word counts anyway.

Hapax Legomenon · Aug 9, 2014

Well 75k is big enough for a novel, just not a fantasy/sci-fi novel, right? I mean it seems to me that when you have something where you want it, cutting 30k is just as hard as adding 30k.

Michael Steven · Aug 9, 2014

Hapax Legomenon said:
Well 75k is big enough for a novel, just not a fantasy/sci-fi novel, right? I mean it seems to me that when you have something where you want it, cutting 30k is just as hard as adding 30k.

The word count limits are set by publishers, not writers. The story is the story. 75K is a perfectly acceptable novel length. More important is the content and how it's presented. I've seen too many books that should have been longer that obviously got dehydrated to fit into the word count blue jeans.

If your fantasy story is 5K, great. If it's 50K, great. If it's 500K, great. You can always manipulate the word count up and down. The real question is ... should you.

Beachgirl · Aug 9, 2014

Hapax Legomenon said:
Well 75k is big enough for a novel, just not a fantasy/sci-fi novel, right? I mean it seems to me that when you have something where you want it, cutting 30k is just as hard as adding 30k.

If you end up with a 75 SFF novel, it's possible some necessary elements haven't been fleshed out properly, whether it's world-building, subplots, etc. Word count is heavy in SFF for a reason. I could probably see a 75k SFF novel if it's an offshoot of worlds/characters/magical system/whatever I'm already familiar with, but if I'm being introduced to all of it for the first time I would expect... more.

However, with that said, I would encourage you to let beta readers get there hands on it. If they say it's ready, even at only 75k, then you may just have an exceptionally tight story. Nothing wrong with that at all!

Hapax Legomenon · Aug 9, 2014

Beachgirl said:
. I could probably see a 75k SFF novel if it's an offshoot of worlds/characters/magical system/whatever I'm already familiar with, but if I'm being introduced to all of it for the first time I would expect... more.

However, with that said, I would encourage you to let beta readers get there hands on it. If they say it's ready, even at only 75k, then you may just have an exceptionally tight story. Nothing wrong with that at all!

I suppose a 75k SF/F novel could be a novella in scope and spirit but a novel in wordcount because of the SF/F elements...

RightHoJeeves · Aug 9, 2014

Hapax Legomenon said:
I suppose a 75k SF/F novel could be a novella in scope and spirit but a novel in wordcount because of the SF/F elements...

Not really entirely sure about current trends and so on, but most SF I've read isn't super super long. PKD and Arthur C Clarke novels are pretty slim.

Hapax Legomenon · Aug 9, 2014

RightHoJeeves said:
Not really entirely sure about current trends and so on, but most SF I've read isn't super super long. PKD and Arthur C Clarke novels are pretty slim.

That may be my problem, I have been reading a lot of older SF like PKD lately which makes me think in shorter terms... but I've heard the range for SF/F can be as high as 100-120k.

RightHoJeeves · Aug 10, 2014

Hapax Legomenon said:
That may be my problem, I have been reading a lot of older SF like PKD lately which makes me think in shorter terms... but I've heard the range for SF/F can be as high as 100-120k.

Yeah, I'm in the same boat. But... whatever.

Torill · Aug 10, 2014

I agree with Old Hack - if you worry that your story is too short for an SF/F novel, the answer is not to write flabby prose or add some random subplots. Instead, you could look at your manuscript and see if there are any characters or conflicts between characters that could be fleshed out more. Can a character be made more complex or ambvialent, with conflicting motives perhaps? Can the tension already there between two or more minor characters be amped up and developed in a sublplot - in a way that highlights some aspect of your story themes? Perhaps you could allow some interesting details in either the backstory of the characters or your worldbuilding to influence the plot more, present your characters with some added, story-relevant obstacles?

Any of this could serve to make your story feel richer, not flabbier.

magicalwhatever · Aug 10, 2014

Having a 75k novel isn't necessarily a looming issue I'd say. Like the others suggested, it could give you the opportunity to evolve your novel and make it stronger. You have lots of wiggle room! Just as Torill said, richer not flabbier!

Also not everyone is interested in reading a 120k SF/F as well. I've actually heard of a small handful of agents rejecting anything over 105k just because they believed anything beyond that could be edited down more.

eyeblink · Aug 10, 2014

RightHoJeeves said:
Not really entirely sure about current trends and so on, but most SF I've read isn't super super long. PKD and Arthur C Clarke novels are pretty slim.

I'm old enough to remember when genre SF novels weren't "allowed" to be longer than 75k or so, with some notable exceptions. (Dune, for example, though that's two magazine serials joined together. Stand on Zanzibar is another.)

Wordcounts and pagecounts were expanded noticeably from around the early 80s onwards.

Nowadays, as is said upthread, 75k would be commercially too short for an adult SF novel from a major publisher. Lavie Tidhar's World Fantasy winner Osama is 70k, but that was first published by an independent (PS Publishing).

Hapax Legomenon · Aug 10, 2014

Right, I don't get this idea that a good SF/F book under 100k cannot be fleshed out and complete because... there are so many SF/F books under that, many of them classic SF/F books that have stood the test of time and are considered important?

dda27101 · Aug 10, 2014

My genre, spy-thriller, dictates lots of action and believable dialogue. As such my phrases are short, to the point…on most occasions…but I do make exceptions during narrative, picture-building passages.
First time writers MUST keep it short and sweet; within parameters dictated by cost considerations of publisher. If first book’s a success…everything is fair game afterward.

morriss003 · Aug 10, 2014

I know this is common, and most writers do say that their first drafts need to be trimmed. I'm the opposite. Most of my books started about just below 100,000 words and ended just over 100,000 words. The number is deliberate because when I started writing, I aimed at 100,000 due to this suggestion from publishing houses like Baen and Tor. My longest book is over 200,000 words. When I started that one I decided to keep writing until I was satisfied with the story.

One other point. In 2011, I set a goal of writing two books at the same time, switching after about 4,000 words. What I learned was to keep my chapters between 5,200 words and 5,800 words. My writing was tighter and the book was easier to follow.

Mr Flibble · Aug 10, 2014

Hapax Legomenon said:
So you write 100k, and then slice it down to 75k... I mean, you can't sell a 75k sci-fi novel. It's way too short. And 75k isn't a novella, either.

Who told you that?

In the US, 75k is fine. Maybe a touch short, but not massively so (could be fixed in edits easily frex)Even in the UK. where longer counts are better received, it'd be fine (if the book is good) It;s not a "OMG RUN FOR THE HILLS!" situation.

You can tell a hell of a story in 75k

Wordcount Versus Ramble

Hapax Legomenon

Filigree

Mildly Disturbing

Michael Steven

Layla Nahar

Seashell Seller

Old Hack

Such a nasty woman

Hapax Legomenon

Old Hack

Such a nasty woman

WriteMinded

Derailed

Hapax Legomenon

Michael Steven

Beachgirl

Not easily managed

Hapax Legomenon

RightHoJeeves

Hapax Legomenon

RightHoJeeves

Torill

Not as trollish as you might think

magicalwhatever

Forgive me, Calypso.

eyeblink

Barbara says hi

Hapax Legomenon

dda27101

morriss003

Lurking along

Mr Flibble

They've been very bad, Mr Flibble