• Guest please check The Index before starting a thread.

Decadent Publishing

Stacia Kane

Girl Detective
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 23, 2006
Messages
8,142
Reaction score
2,668
Location
In cahoots with the other boo-birds
Website
www.staciakane.com
I should also note----when I worked with Random House, my galleys were also done electronically. Print galleys are virtually unheard of nowadays.


My Random House galleys have all been in print. My Pocket galleys were all in print too; in fact, most of the galleys any of my friends have received have been in print. (My copyedits were all in print too, just as an aside.)

Perhaps Random House UK handled things differently, or the Virgin imprint did, since they were bought out and run as a standalone business within RH, rather than created in-house and run as an imprint? Or perhaps it's just a matter of different editors doing different things; for my first two Downside books I got a regular editorial letter etc. electronically; for my third since I was working with my new editor, she made notes on the printed ms. So it may just be a matter of style, I suppose.

There's nothing wrong with electronic galleys, but print ones are certainly not "virtually unheard of."
 
Last edited:

KimJo

Outside the box, with the werewolves
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 17, 2005
Messages
4,028
Reaction score
356
Location
somewhere in Massachusetts
Website
karennacolcroft.com
With one of my publishers, I receive "proof" copies, electronically in PDF...they're hopefully the final copies, having gone through all the revisions and edits, including line edits, and I'm asked to go through for one last check for typos and that kind of thing. While I'm doing that, my editor is as well. That publisher has never called these copies galleys, and it's primarily an e-publisher.

(If anyone's wondering, that's the publisher that does my YA under one of its imprints and some of my romance under another imprint. The editing/revision/proof process is the same with both imprints.)
 

ChaosTitan

Around
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Dec 8, 2005
Messages
15,463
Reaction score
2,886
Location
The not-so-distant future
Website
kellymeding.com
My Random House galleys have all been in print. My Pocket galleys were all in print too; in fact, most of the galleys any of my friends have received have been in print. (My copyedits were all in print too, just as an aside.)

Ditto.

Print galleys might be unheard of in the e-world, but they are still quite common with print publishers.
 

Old Hack

Such a nasty woman
Super Moderator
Absolute Sage
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jun 12, 2005
Messages
22,454
Reaction score
4,956
Location
In chaos
I really don't appreciate the implication that I don't know what I'm talking about. After nearly 20 years in the biz and 20 books of my own (plus another 15 or so that I've edited) I think I know the process inside and out.

I won't address the rest of your comment, Saka, as others have already done so. But this part? Yes, I'll respond.

I wasn't implying that you don't know what you're talking about: I was asking if you had made a mistake with your terminology, and if things were done significantly different in the US (although I didn't think that they were, as I spent some years editing UK-US co-editions for publishers like HarperCollins, Virgin and Chronicle, and I never noticed any significant differences between the ways the publishing houses behaved apart from the spelling issue and a couple of punctuation tics).

Your suggestion that editing is done at galley-proof level still strikes me as bizarre, and so far it seems as though pretty much everyone else who has commented on this agrees with me. It's not how I'm used to things being done: but if it works for Decadent, who am I to object? It does make me wary that they do other things in unconventional ways too, which might well have implications for how well their books find their readers, good or bad: but I have to say that right now, I wouldn't submit to Decadent and your insistence that "galley editing" is how things are done has reinforced that personal preference.
 

Giant Baby

Oh, the humanity.
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 29, 2007
Messages
988
Reaction score
271
Location
First-person omnicient
... I'll also add that Decadent hired a very experienced freelance editor to do my galley edit, and that editor provided hands-down, the best galley-edit I've had in my entire career---even better and more thorough than the edit I got at an imprint of Random House...

Bolding mine.

Old Hack, to my eyes the above reads as though Sakamonda did have a bit of confusion with her terminology, as you suspected, and then perhaps had a little trouble walking it back? I don't know anything about Decadent, but I'd hate to assign a business practice to a publisher based on a mis-speak.
 

victoriastrauss

Writer Beware Goddess
Kind Benefactor
Absolute Sage
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 11, 2005
Messages
6,704
Reaction score
1,314
Location
Far from the madding crowd
Website
www.victoriastrauss.com
I know I'm dating myself, but...many people use "galley proof" and "page proof" interchangeably, but there is a difference. In the dim and distant days before digitization, galley proofs were a preliminary step allowing for correction of printers' errors (NOT for editing, though), with page proofs produced later for final corrections. Galleys were long sheets containing two or more printed pages, with wide margins for editorial markup. Page proofs were the actual pages as they would appear in the book.

For my first novel, published in 1982, both galley proofs and page proofs were produced, and I had to correct them both. Galley proofs were already on their way out, though--for my second novel, pubbed in 1985, there were page proofs only.

So strictly speaking, there are no galleys anymore. I always wince when I see people use that term now.

- Victoria
 

Deleted member 42

I
So strictly speaking, there are no galleys anymore. I always wince when I see people use that term now.

Actually, there are--but they're used by production departments. Authors are spared the galley stage, unless it's a coffee table art book.

When I'm asked to license images, or assist with a non-roman text issue, I'll see galleys. The final typesetter will still get marked up galleys.

It's so embedded in the process, that the workflow and data management programs still have the same stages:

Submission
Copy editing
Proofing
Galleys (no page numbers; figures have temp placement--some publishers will use a standard figure to come image)
Page proofs (Pages numbers present, all front matter present, all figures and captions present, index lemma terms if not entire index present)

Page proofs are what most authors get; and mostly, they'll be .pdf unless you're working with a specialist publisher doing high end art books, or a similar special case. Production staff will have printed out at least one complete copy, and will have at least a cover concept and back matter text.

I'm going to link to the Wiley page; it's got the clearest explanation of where the forks occur (galley or page proofs) and what things mean.

I note that for my current book--where I'm functioning as an author and not production staff--we received separate proofs for the printed book, and for the various ebook versions, the .pdf sold via O'Reilly, the Kindle sold by Amazon, and then the just released epub version sold via Apple's iBooks store. For the digital versions we received what were essentiall "beta" versions, or soft proofs, in the native file format for the final book.

When you go to an ebook, whether it's co-current with paper or it's a digital only book, there are some differences in terms of setting the text as well as a number of other issues.

Production staff need to be sure captions and figures aren't separated. Chapter openings can be tricky for a number of reasons. Production staff need to be smart about whether the ebook file format will be static (.pdf) or reflowable (epub). There are other issues as well.

There are a lot of reasons why going from MSWord to digital is not the best solution--among them the reliance on MSWord handling high aschii characters like em- and en-dashes, curly quote marks and apostrophes, ellipses, and syncope.

It's especially tricky in fiction, because punctuation in dialog can be over-corrected and thus made wrong by MSWord--especially if there are em-dashes, or uses of contracted words like 'tis.
 

Old Hack

Such a nasty woman
Super Moderator
Absolute Sage
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jun 12, 2005
Messages
22,454
Reaction score
4,956
Location
In chaos
Actually, there are--but they're used by production departments. Authors are spared the galley stage, unless it's a coffee table art book.

When I'm asked to license images, or assist with a non-roman text issue, I'll see galleys. The final typesetter will still get marked up galleys.

That's my experience too.

But regardless of who gets to see galleys, editing isn't done at this stage, is it? Surely not? Galleys are for checking that editing changes have been made properly, not for actual editing.

(I'm sorry, Sakamonda, if you feel like I'm picking on you: I'm really not. It's just I am convinced that it's essential to be as accurate as possible so that people who might come along and read this thread in months or years to come will go away with a decent understanding of the process.)
 
Joined
Aug 7, 2005
Messages
47,985
Reaction score
13,245
I'm only published with epubs (two of 'em) yet, and have only been through galleys with one publisher. Will probably have my galleys from the other publisher soon.

Anyway. They come by email and I'm told DO NOT make any significant changes at this stage; galleys are for correcting typos only.
 

Deleted member 42

Galleys are for checking that editing changes have been made properly, not for actual editing.

Yep. And generally, authorial alterations that are authorial rather than typesetter-induced errors after copy editing are covered by a contractual clause that stipulates at what extent/point the author will be charged for making changes deemed excessive.

Here's the Wiley policy:

wiley said:
Author's Alterations

Your contract with Wiley stipulates what budgetary amount you are allowed for altering your material once it has been set into type. This amount is usually related to a percentage of the overall cost of composition. If you exceed this amount, the overage is generally charged against your royalties.

The reason for concern is that revisions to typeset material are far more costly than the initial typesetting, since even the smallest change to a galley or page requires time and expense to make. The error will require replacement of at least one line of type, and possibly many more, creation of a new proof, proofreading, and, if another error is introduced, a repetition of this process. Extensive alterations in page proofs can affect the paging of the entire book and delay creation of the index as well as the finalizing of the Contents. These changes, of course, take time and can easily jeopardize the publication date by adding unanticipated tasks to the proof stages. Late publication may also mean that sales may be hurt, particularly if your title is scheduled to appear at a conference or meeting where many potentially interested participants will attend.

Your AME will advise you if you are exceeding your contracted allowance for alterations. She or he also can assist you in helping to identify the causes of the alterations and suggest ways to minimize them.
How to Avoid Excessive Author's Alterations

The easiest way to avoid excessive alterations is to prepare your manuscript carefully and to finalize its content during your check of copyediting. If you follow the guidelines given in this pamphlet and adhere to the steps below, the number of corrections that must be made in the proof stage will be kept to a minimum

There's usually a clause about excessive alterations in the author's contract.

At University of Chicago on a book I worked on that had the author deciding to remove all references to a colleague's work--when we'd reached page proofs and were checking to make sure that the Sanskrit text was set correctly--the changes affected body text, captions, foot notes and the index.

It cost the author a fair chunk of change.

And on a romance I was hired to check dialog for, the author decided to change a character's name post copy edit, after signing off on the edit.

She had to pay.
 

Old Hack

Such a nasty woman
Super Moderator
Absolute Sage
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jun 12, 2005
Messages
22,454
Reaction score
4,956
Location
In chaos
I'd expect an author to pay for such changes. Proofs are supplied so that a final check can be made--not so that editing can be done. It's SO expensive to change things at that point.
 

Roger J Carlson

Moderator In Name Only
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 19, 2005
Messages
12,799
Reaction score
2,499
Location
West Michigan
I think most of these questions can be answered by looking at their site, but I'll also answer. Their ebooks are beautifully produced, by far the best-looking of any epublisher I've worked with. The covers are gorgeous. (The cover of my current release is the best cover I've had in my career, whether in print or in ebook). They employ one of the most sought-after cover designers in the ebook biz (Dara England). Their books are available in all major ebook formats. They are currently working with most of the major third-party distributors (except B&N's Nook, which they are working on, though you can get a Nook-compatible file direct from the Decadent site). I don't think they've ever had their site go down.
All well and good, but what are their sales? When it comes right down to it, the only thing I'm interested about a publisher is the number of books it sells...not how many it produces or how beautiful they are.
 

nkkingston

Bemused Girl
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 11, 2008
Messages
1,116
Reaction score
67
Location
UK
Website
www.solelyfictional.org
Having now read one of their books, I have to say I'm a little disappointed there's no wordcount listed on the website. If you root around, a rough guide can be found under 'Ebooks' at the top of the site or 'About Ebooks' at the bottom (but not in the FAQ, which is distinctly Author geared).

The book in question was 36 pages long (only 27 of which were the actual story - the last six pages were promos for other books) for $2.99. I think the cost is about right for the length, but I'd have liked a hint at the length on the page for the book itself. The writing was alright but a bit exposition heavy, and overall the whole thing felt like a prequel or teaser for a full length novel, rather than a story in its own right.

Edit: The free download is 8 pages long, the first 4 pages of which are cover/copyright/dedication etc and the last page is about the author. It's free, I don't mind it being short, but more than half the file is taken up with not-story.
 
Last edited:

Lainey Bancroft

Cover Me!
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 2, 2008
Messages
614
Reaction score
116
Location
southern Ontario
Website
www.elaineforlife.com
I see several author names I respect on the Decadent site, and I agree the covers are above average, but cautions from respected authors, Stacia, among others, gives me pause.

And I pulled back when I read the --admittedly fun--interview with Heather:

"Where does Decadent stand on the print front? Will there be books in print in the future?
We are working on several at the moment. We are an ebook-to-print publisher. Paper IS in our future."


I fear that other authors will be wooed into thinking that e to print (pod) is the be-all--as I once was. :(


A pod book usually costs anywhere from $12-17. When an online shopper/reader hits Amazon or B & N, how likely will they be to pay almost double for a 'no-name' book? From my experience, not likely at all.


If decadent were aiming for short print runs and distribution, I'd be there!
 
Last edited:

brainstorm77

practical experience, FTW
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 16, 2006
Messages
14,627
Reaction score
2,057
I see several author names I respect on the Decadent site, and I agree the covers are above average, but cautions from respected authors, Stacia, among others, gives me pause.

And I pulled back when I read the --admittedly fun--interview with Heather:

"Where does Decadent stand on the print front? Will there be books in print in the future?
We are working on several at the moment. We are an ebook-to-print publisher. Paper IS in our future."


I fear that other authors will be wooed into thinking that e to print (pod) is the be-all--as I once was. :(


A pod book usually costs anywhere from $12-17. When an online shopper/reader hits Amazon or B & N, how likely will they be to pay almost double for a 'no-name' book? From my experience, not likely at all.


If decadent were aiming for short print runs and distribution, I'd be there!

I think it depends. I have bought print books from Siren/Bookstrand. They seem to have quite the following in some of their lines. Saying that, I still think e books will get the most sales even with me. I get my reader this Christmas and I can't see me buying much print after that.

If I am a fan of the writer or the storyline sounds interesting and the sample reads well I would buy it. And this would go for any press.

Now speaking as a writer, for me it's about sales. :)
 
Last edited:

BarbaraSheridan

*insert catchy phrase here*
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Dec 9, 2005
Messages
674
Reaction score
46
Location
Steeler Country
Website
www.barbarasheridan.com
They are awfully fast with getting the covers done. Nice ones, too.

I'm guessing it may be because the artist works exclusively with them and/or doesn't have a big backlog. I don't know for certain because I never asked if that's the case, but it was a nice surprise.