MG violence

beachbum21k

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I'm toying with the idea of a middle grade fantasy setting. That would mean a lot of sword fighting.

So my question is how violent is too violent. If my main character is always slashing bad guys and monsters is that too much?
 
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Supergirlofnc

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I'm toying with the idea of a middle grade fantasy setting. That would mean a lot of sword fighting.

So my question is how violent is too violent. If my main character is always slashing bad guys and monsters is that too much?

Hmm. I'm guessing it would depend on how the violence was portrayed and on the story? Blood spurting, men and women screaming, and bad guys piled in dead heaps with severed limbs might come across differently from someone falling down and not getting back up. Also, lopping off the head of a monster would probably feel different than lopping off the head of human.

I know this isn't much help, but my opinion is some violence is probably okay. Graphic violence maybe not as much. I'm unsure where the line between them is, though, and I like some violence in my fantasy.

Personally, I also like it when the MC reflects on the consequences of the violence, even if within the story it's unavoidable violence and even if the reflection is brief. That adds more depth for me. That's my two cents. I hope it helps.
 
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Tromboli

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I agree. Its less about what you show and more about how you show it. I just read the third book in the False Prince series (ascendance trilogy is the technical name) and thats about a full on war. Definitely a lot of violence (even in the second book). So maybe check that one out (amazing series so you won't be too put out :)

It might also depend on the age group. You can get away with a lot in upper MG because its almost YA. Lower MG? Be a little more careful.
 

Supergirlofnc

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I just read the third book in the False Prince series (ascendance trilogy is the technical name) and thats about a full on war. Definitely a lot of violence (even in the second book). So maybe check that one out (amazing series so you won't be too put out :)


I've really enjoyed this series also, so I'm going to second it.

(I haven't read book 3 yet, Tromboli, but I've downloaded the audiobook. Once I start it, though, I know I'll stay up late finishing it. :) )
 

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You'd be amazed at some of the violence that shows up in upper MG. In lower MG, you'll have to censor it, though.

That's why I prefer upper MG.
 

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The Sisters Grimm series comes to mind. For a series that skews toward the younger / middle part of MG, the later books were dark with way more violence and death than expected.

I think sword fighting could be fun, and I second supergirlofnc's post. It's all in how you write it. This is entirely my opinion and based on no sound research, but I feel like there's a different attitude toward sword fighting as compared to guns or even fist fights. It's sort of a violence lite, if you will. If anything, the hardest part of writing sword fighting in a MG novel is conveying the action in a understandable and exciting way. :)
 

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Another thing good to know I found. (I definitely prefer upper MG myself.)
 

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There can actually be quite a lot of violence in upper MG. Tangerine is one of the most brutal novels I've ever read, and it's contemporary MG (so kids being evil to kids, in a modern-day setting).
 

JustSarah

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Is there any sort of expectation the MC has to came out OK the next episode?

Though in a way that can get ridiculous. Episode 1 - gets eaten by a lion, Episode 2 - I'm OK, get's hauled away by an owl. Episode 3 - I am OK! Does a happy dance.

While that's extreme example, are we able to have some expectation of permanence in middle grade lit? I don't like goriness to much, but I do like events to have some impact beyond the episode, just so it doesn't seem like the silly example above.

I figured it was related to violence in MG lit.
 

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I don't think the MC has to come out okay all the time. By the time kids are reading upper MG, they can handle endings that aren't always happy, with negative results that actually affect the MC.

At least I hope so. In my upper MG fantasy, I wouldn't characterize the ending as happy. It's not sad either. It's just not the ending the MC wanted.
 

DanielaTorre

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I am so happy that someone made a thread about this. I'm currently working on an upper MG fantasy wherein a 21st century kid travels back into the 19th century pirate riddled waters of the Caribbean.

Needless to say, there's a lot of gun toting and pointing. Many cutlass, cannons, and shivs... My MC gets rattled around, nearly gets his hand chopped off, and I can't begin to count how many times he's threatened, tossed around, and had a flintlock pistol in his face.

While nobody has yet to die or get shot (with the exception of grapeshot's taken by the ship), I'm always worried that there might me too much violence. The twist of my story is that the MC is the master of death, so its totes cool, but I've entertained a scene where another boy holds him down to keep him quiet with a shiv at his throat. Is that too much?

P.S. I'm concerned because I want to keep it authentic and you can't have pirates without cutting a few throats.
 
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Quentin Nokov

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Kids are so desensitized now, I wouldn't worry too much about the gore. I've got some pretty violent scenes. I figure once I step into the realm of publishing my editor or publisher will tell me what I should tone down if I need any toning down. The best motto to have in life is, "When in doubt, don't." If you write something and start doubting whether or not it has a place in MG, cut it out and just save it in a file in case you change your mind later.
 

DanielaTorre

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Meh. I went ahead and wrote it anyway. LOL. If people don't like it, I'll start my own publishing company, with blackjack and hookers.
 

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I don't think the MC has to come out okay all the time. By the time kids are reading upper MG, they can handle endings that aren't always happy, with negative results that actually affect the MC.

At least I hope so. In my upper MG fantasy, I wouldn't characterize the ending as happy. It's not sad either. It's just not the ending the MC wanted.
The rule I go by, and it's one I was told for YA a few years ago, so I figure MG would at least be the same, is that there has to be an element of hope at the end. It doesn't have to end happily, but that hope has to be there. I don't know if it's for the MC, for those closest to the MC, for the world, for the future of all these things, but as long as you feel it's present, it's okay to not have that happy ending.

I admit, I love writing bittersweet or even depressing endings in YA, but my MGs all end happier than they started.
 

JustSarah

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I think bittersweet ones are my favorite. It's sad enough to make you care a little bit about the characters, but it's not toss across the room gloomy. It actually takes skill to write one of those.:/
 
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killdeer

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I've been thinking about this a lot today. I'm dealing with how much violence to include in my stories myself.

I recently read a YA book that includes a brief, non-graphic but highly evocative description of suicide. It is integral and necessary to the story. I have no objection to the writing-in fact I admire it. It has also been on my mind all day. It was on some level traumatic to read, even as an adult.

I don't remember the exact age I was when I read A Swiftly Tilting Planet by Madeline L'Engle. I loved that book like crazy at the time, and I still love it now. It contains one brief paragraph about a man's experiences in the civil war. There's a single graphic sentence: "Matt, I saw a man with his face blown off and no mouth to scream with, and yet he screamed and could not die." When I read that sentence, it haunted me. I read A Swiftly Tilting Planet over and over, but I always made sure to skip that page--which was funny, because I knew the sentence nearly word-perfect from having read it just once. (In fact, just now I typed it in blind. Then I looked it up and had to add the name "Matt" and change "who had" to "with.")

Am I sorry I read that sentence? No. It's not possible to avoid all the trauma in the world. Did it shape my adult view of war? My political views? Who knows.

My point is that there's a tendency to think of this issue in terms of wanting to know what the rules are. Or maybe that's just me. But another way to look at it is that stories have their own integrity. Reading about realistic violence is traumatic. A good story balances that trauma with the purpose behind the trauma. A "fun" story won't hit the reader with a traumatic experience. A serious one will, but only to the extent that it needs to.

"Fun" stories have a huge amount of leeway to engage in swashbuckling swordfighting horse-racing galaxy-spanning dust-ups where somehow nobody ever gets seriously hurt. But that gets complicated too, because the same story can shift from "fun" at one moment to deadly serious during another. Plus the desire to spare the reader leads to an odd message: that nobody important ever gets hurt. (Cue jokes about Star Trek and redshirts.)

A Swiftly Tilting Planet is in part a story about a telepathic boy who travels through time on a winged unicorn to save the world - and my younger self for sure found that to be a sweet, sweet fantasy. But it's also a serious story about what sways people to good or evil actions. The keystone threat is that the world would perish in a nuclear holocaust, which is something that quite literally terrified me during that period of history. A certain amount of brutality is fitting to the theme. But if I had to read page after page of civil war gore, I would have shut the book.

Anyway, this isn't really the sort of post that has conclusions. Just stuff that's been on my mind...
 

jlstov

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killdeer, you moved me - seriously with your post. since i'm more of an adventure writer, this passionate description of violence will probably have me thinking about it all day too.
 

killdeer

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killdeer, you moved me - seriously with your post. since i'm more of an adventure writer, this passionate description of violence will probably have me thinking about it all day too.
Thank you - I felt more than a little self-conscious after posting such personal ramblings, so I'm glad it resonated with you!
 

jlstov

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I'm glad you shared it. Personal from the heart is always best. :)
 

Fullon_v4.0

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That's a really good question. 10-14 year old's see plenty of action in the movies and TV these days, but what is really O.K book-wise?

It's a balancing act between getting the idea across without losing action. I walked the same linein my first project with plenty of tweaking.

Think about it. It would suck to lose readership because of little Jimmy's parents taking a peek at his book, and they just happen to flip to the one page in the novel were the antagonist's head gets severed from his body while rats chew at his innards. Just saying.
 
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I too have problems with this subject. How much is too much, you know? The cartoons these children are watching nowadays are pretty violent; you should be okay if you don't overdo the gory details.