"no one owns culture"

kuwisdelu · Apr 20, 2014

Why do people believe this?

When I see people asking how to write characters from different cultures and incorporate cultural elements or cultural stories, I too often see this stated as if it should be fact, and too often no one bothers to question this "fact" or why we believe it or why it could come from a harmful perspective.

Sure, no one may "own" culture in the Western legal sense of "property", but we are still faced with language that only serves the privileged appropriator and leaves no recourse of objection for the appropriated.

I often talk about "my culture" and obviously the people asking these questions recognize they are talking about a culture not their own. So how can they then conclude that no one owns it?

How can we change this pervasive perspective?

shaldna · Apr 20, 2014

Just to clarify, in case I'm getting this wrong, but are you asking why people want to include characters from other cultures? And how to do it?

kuwisdelu · Apr 20, 2014

shaldna said:
Just to clarify, in case I'm getting this wrong, but are you asking why people want to include characters from other cultures? And how to do it?

No, that's a separate but related conversation, but it's not what I'm talking about.

I'm asking about the perspective itself: why do people believe that a culture does not — at least in some way — belong to its people?

How to respectfully borrow from that culture is another question, but not mine.

mirandashell · Apr 20, 2014

Sorry, I'm being really ignorant but are you talking about a defence for appropriation?

kuwisdelu · Apr 20, 2014

mirandashell said:
Sorry, I'm being really ignorant but are you talking about a defence for appropriation?

I'm saying people often defend appropriation by saying "no one owns culture" (with an implicit "therefore, I can take it and use it however I want.")

I'm saying that's incorrect, and culture is owned by its people, and therefore appropriation is theft.

I'm saying this mindset that no one owns culture leads to appropriation, so how can we fix the mindset?

Lillith1991 · Apr 20, 2014

I'm not sure how to fix the problem honestly. But it does need to be fixed, because you're completely right. A people do own their culture, and people that don't think that baffle me.

Unimportant · Apr 20, 2014

kuwisdelu said:
I'm saying people often defend appropriation by saying "no one owns culture" (with an implicit "therefore, I can take it and use it however I want.")

I'm saying that's incorrect, and culture is owned by its people, and therefore appropriation is theft.

I'm saying this mindset that no one owns culture leads to appropriation, so how can we fix the mindset?

I am not going to argue the point, but instead raise a caveat to it: where do you draw the line? If my MC is someone just like me, and she works with people from all nationalities (just as I do), how do I portray those other characters? If I model character S on the Indian woman I work with, but (unknown to me) my colleague isn't really representative of Indian culture, am I appropriating and misrepresenting Indian culture? Can my MC never travel to any country I haven't lived in at least ten years? What if I want to send her to Europe? Do I have to restrict her to six hours in the Amsterdam airport, which is the full extent of my personal European experience?

If I play it safe and make all of my characters white-bread, isn't that just as bad -- writing fictional worlds that delete the other? Isn't that what we've had for generations: books in which white boys do all the cool stuff, and white girls fall in love, and queers and PoC etc don't even exist?

(Pre-coffee devil's advocate here, so apologies if I'm incoherent.)

VRanger · Apr 20, 2014

Forgive me if I'm misunderstanding, but it sounds as if you are claiming that people should not write of a culture which is not their own origin. If enacted, that would make for writing with very narrow focus and interest.

If a writer includes a culture foreign to him and gets it wrong, the remedy is that the writing lacks credibility, and critics WILL debunk the errors.

But any work with scope is very likely to stretch the writer's own experience, hopefully with the assistance of adequate research.

Don't tell me you'd like to ban Tarzan? ;-)

mirandashell · Apr 20, 2014

I am not going to argue the point, but instead raise a caveat to it: where do you draw the line? If my MC is someone just like me, and she works with people from all nationalities (just as I do), how do I portray those other characters? If I model character S on the Indian woman I work with, but (unknown to me) my colleague isn't really representative of Indian culture, am I appropriating and misrepresenting Indian culture? Can my MC never travel to any country I haven't lived in at least ten years? What if I want to send her to Europe? Do I have to restrict her to six hours in the Amsterdam airport, which is the full extent of my personal European experience?

If I play it safe and make all of my characters white-bread, isn't that just as bad -- writing fictional worlds that delete the other? Isn't that what we've had for generations: books in which white boys do all the cool stuff, and white girls fall in love, and queers and PoC etc don't even exist?

That's what I was wondering which is why I asked the question.

VRanger · Apr 20, 2014

If I model character S on the Indian woman I work with, but (unknown to me) my colleague isn't really representative of Indian culture, am I appropriating and misrepresenting Indian culture?

My answer would be no, you aren't under any circumstances doing anything wrong. In that circumstance "S" is correctly an individual, not a stereotype.

kuwisdelu · Apr 20, 2014

Unimportant said:
I am not going to argue the point, but instead raise a caveat to it: where do you draw the line?

That's a question for another thread, IMO.

It's the psychology of the title phrase in which I'm interested.

VRanger said:
Forgive me if I'm misunderstanding, but it sounds as if you are claiming that people should not write of a culture which is not their own origin.

No, I think it's entirely possible to write respectfully about another culture. To frame it one way, just like there are exceptions to intellectual ownership in terms of Fair Use, there are exceptions to cultural ownership in terms of Respectful Use.

But I'm not asking about that. We have plenty of threads about that already, and anyone with the question of "how do I write about another culture respectfully" can start a new one.

I'm asking where does the mindset that culture doesn't belong to anyone come from?

To say that "no one owns culture" is a kind of appropriation itself. It leaves people from that culture no room to ask for respect and accuracy, because they no longer own it, therefore their perspective is no longer any more relevant than anyone else's. It's insidious in its subtlety.

Why do we let people say "no one owns culture" and allow it to go uncontested?

Roxxsmom · Apr 20, 2014

VRanger said:
Forgive me if I'm misunderstanding, but it sounds as if you are claiming that people should not write of a culture which is not their own origin. If enacted, that would make for writing with very narrow focus and interest.

If a writer includes a culture foreign to him and gets it wrong, the remedy is that the writing lacks credibility, and critics WILL debunk the errors.

But any work with scope is very likely to stretch the writer's own experience, hopefully with the assistance of adequate research.

Don't tell me you'd like to ban Tarzan? ;-)

I don't think the OP is saying this. It's certainly possible (and desirable) to write about people from different cultures and nationalities than oneself.

The statement that nobody owns a culture is often used, however, to justify the perpetuation of stereotypes, or conversely, ignoring perspectives that really do exist within a culture. Writing about a cultural perspective that isn't yours is a bit like visiting someone else's house or borrowing a prized possession from a friend--you treat it with even more care and respect than you do your own.

mirandashell · Apr 20, 2014

kuwisdelu said:
Why do we let people say "no one owns culture" and allow it to go uncontested?

I'm not sure who you are asking. I think most of us on this board don't do that and therefore wouldn't know why that is said. And anyone here who does think that isn't likely to say so if they know the culture of this forum.

kuwisdelu · Apr 20, 2014

mirandashell said:
I'm not sure who you are asking. I think most of us on this board don't do that and therefore wouldn't know why that is said. And anyone here who does think that isn't likely to say so if they know the culture of this forum.

I have seen it said on this board before. Sometimes it was challenged, sometimes it wasn't.

Regardless, I don't see why we can't have a discussion about it, where the perspective comes from, and how to challenge it. It's extremely pervasive.

The tragedy is I think many otherwise well-meaning authors — when challenged with their inaccuracies — resort to it as a defensive mechanism.

Unimportant · Apr 20, 2014

kuwisdelu said:
I'm asking where does the mindset that culture doesn't belong to anyone come from?

Ah, okay. See, I knew I needed coffee!

I think it comes from the White Privilege mindset. It's not so much "you don't own your culture" as "I want to play in your culture and I have the right to do that because, well, I want to, so why shouldn't I?" Followed up by "I don't mind if people of colour write about white people like me, so why should they mind if white people like me write about people of colour?" Followed up by "You should take it as a compliment! Because it's saying that white people are boring and commonplace, while your culture is all cool and exotic and something people would want to read about!"

The problem is, all that stuff works, and has done for a long time. White people (WP) appropriated other cultures, and no one said boo -- and it never crossed WP's minds that this was because they were in a position of power, and The Other (TO) didn't dare to say boo. WP haven't cared if TO wrote about white characters -- because TO authors have hardly been a drop in the bucket and haven't penetrated WP's consciousness. Books about appropriated culture -- from white-colonial-girl-and-Native-American-chief romances, to fantasies set in thinly-veiled TO cultures, to white-man-shows-the-natives-how-to-do-it-better, a la Avatar -- have historically sold well.

VRanger · Apr 20, 2014

I think your premise is flawed. It doesn't matter if anyone says that or why. You can't stop people from thinking and saying things, whether those things are right or wrong. You can only foster an environment of education so that if people have misconceptions, they die out.

The only thing that matters is whether or not a culture is depicted accurately. It doesn't even matter if it is respectful, just accurate. All cultures have good elements and bad elements. Some lean more towards one end than the other.

The problem may be the word "own". People are more experienced in their own culture. They are more immersed in it.

I'm from the South. Since the 60s the growth of the Sunbelt has provided a fertile sociological mixing bowl of what I think you may be getting at. Lots of people from northern states moved down here. The region became more industrialized. Urban areas expanded rapidly. Incoming people learned new habits and brought their own. (Guess how many dedicated bagel stores existed in the South before the Sunbelt influx. LOL)

We could not claim we "owned" Southern culture. Even if anyone did, which culture do they own? All but a very few have changed drastically in the last century ... in the last 10 years even ... smartphones anyone?

So I still might not be getting what you're after, but I kind of think you are worrying over a problem with no fixed origin and no pat solution.

kuwisdelu · Apr 20, 2014

Unimportant said:
Followed up by "You should take it as a compliment! Because it's saying that white people are boring and commonplace, while your culture is all cool and exotic and something people would want to read about!"

I think this is the one that bothers me the most, because when people think they're being positive, it's hard to show them how they could still be doing harm.

VRanger said:
I think your premise is flawed. It doesn't matter if anyone says that or why. You can't stop people from thinking and saying things, whether those things are right or wrong. You can only foster an environment of education so that if people have misconceptions, they die out.

It does matter that people say that. Because it's a mindset that fosters that very lack of education, and encourages misconceptions.

The only thing that matters is whether or not a culture is depicted accurately. It doesn't even matter if it is respectful, just accurate.

Why do you think respect doesn't matter?

All cultures have good elements and bad elements. Some lean more towards one end than the other.

Respect is not the same as taking the positive and ignoring the negative.

Even portrayals that are purely "positive" can be disrespectful and harmful.

The problem may be the word "own". People are more experienced in their own culture. They are more immersed in it.

And the culture is also theirs.

I'm from the South. [...]

I don't think "Southern culture" can really be compared to what I'm talking about, and if you think it is, I don't think you really understand where I'm coming from.

shaldna · Apr 20, 2014

I'm probably going to cause a riot for saying this, but I don't necessarily think that cultural appropriation is a bad thing.

The average guy on the street will usually equate cultural appropriation as basically down to either skinny white kids dressing and talking like gangsters, or unwashed hemp wearing hipping embracing a foreign religion.

But whether we think we do it or not, many of us will at some stage. We make small changes, embrace small things on a daily basis depending on those we are surrounded by and where we are. To not have some degree of appropriation or adaption or cultural exchange means we are shutting ourselves off from the rest of the world only to exist and interact with those who are like ourselves.

I think cultural mis-appropriation is a bad thing though. People who take on aspects of a culture without understanding it. That's where the issue is, where the offence lies.

For instance, I'm Irish. We're a small country with a very rich culture of storytelling, myths and magic. Come March, however, and EVERYONE seems to be Irish. And we Irish can either get annoyed about all these people latching on to our heritage s a reason to have a party, or we can do what we do, welcome everyone who wants to join in, learn something and take something of our culture and heritage away with them to assimilate into their own lives.

Now, to clarify, there are aspects of every culture that I think 'outsiders' probably can never really understand, or really shouldn't adapt. In Ireland, for instance, we have a long history of religious suppression and unrest, resultant civil wars etc. I don't think it's appropriate for someone who isn't DIRECTLY descended from that part of our history to embrace or take part in - such as the Parades etc. Now, at the same time, learn about it,go along and watch, you'll be welcomed. But it's not appropriate to take part.

VRanger · Apr 20, 2014

Unimportant, if the point of the question was to discuss the evils of a few hundred years of European Colonialism (and yes there were many), then I REALLY did miss the point. LOL

What I want to know is are we intending to go back 200+ years and critique James Fenimore Cooper, or are we thinking about how what a writer participating in this forum should be considering when doing homework about writing of an unfamiliar environment.

shaldna · Apr 20, 2014

sorry, dulicate post

shaldna · Apr 20, 2014

kuwisdelu said:
I don't think "Southern culture" can really be compared to what I'm talking about, and if you think it is, I don't think you really understand where I'm coming from.

Wow, that is actually incredibly dismissive. Who are you to dictate what constitutes as 'culture' and on how big a scale it should be? You're talking about what you see as a problem, but with this statement you are becoming part of what you are saying is a problem.

Each country, hell many areas within countries have very specific and regionalised cultures that vary massively.

Unimportant · Apr 20, 2014

kuwisdelu said:
I think this is the one that bothers me the most, because when people think they're being positive, it's hard to show them how they could still be doing harm.

Agreed.

I think there are probably elements of white superiority mixed with Mary Sue, for some authors. The Avatar thing, where the white character is "open minded" enough to accept and embrace the other culture, but white is also superior and therefore can excel over the others. White girl shows the Indian chief how to bake yeast bread. White guys with tanks and uzis get transported back in time and have to take on people with slingshots and muskets (and, amazingly, win!). It lets the author feel superior on every level.

There is also a lot of sexual fetishising (is that a word?) about women of cultures (or time periods) that are heavily misogynistic, and therefore the women are (or are seen as) submissive and obedient -- aka sex slaves.

VRanger · Apr 20, 2014

kuwisdelu said:
Why do you think respect doesn't matter?

Because it isn't the correct word for your discussion. I can respect a culture and know absolutely nothing about it. I can know a LOT about it and not respect it. Respect is irrelevant to your question.

Respect is not the same as taking the positive and ignoring the negative.

Even portrayals that are purely "positive" can be disrespectful and harmful.

Then you agree with me. My statement is that the important concept in portraying the culture is accuracy. That's what you just said too. We can close that one.

I don't think "Southern culture" can really be compared to what I'm talking about, and if you think it is, I don't think you really understand where I'm coming from.

Then explain where you are coming from. You made one very broad complaint with absolutely no specific context or example. Please help me to understand your point of view, and I hope your point of view isn't that your culture is more important than my culture. ;-)

kuwisdelu · Apr 20, 2014

VRanger said:
What I want to know is are we intending to go back 200+ years and critique James Fenimore Cooper,

There's no need to go back in time at all. The exact same literary crimes are occurring today.

or are we thinking about how what a writer participating in this forum should be considering when doing homework about writing of an unfamiliar environment.

Other people seem to want this thread to go that way, but that's not why I started it, no.

I want to develop an understanding of why some people think culture belongs to everyone, and how to address it.

shaldna said:
I'm probably going to cause a riot for saying this, but I don't necessarily think that cultural appropriation is a bad thing.

I think cultural mis-appropriation is a bad thing though. People who take on aspects of a culture without understanding it. That's where the issue is, where the offence lies.

Cultural appropriation is a bad thing because it leads to a perpetuation of lies and stereotypes about a culture.

For instance, I'm Irish. We're a small country with a very rich culture of storytelling, myths and magic. Come March, however, and EVERYONE seems to be Irish. And we Irish can either get annoyed about all these people latching on to our heritage s a reason to have a party, or we can do what we do, welcome everyone who wants to join in, learn something and take something of our culture and heritage away with them to assimilate into their own lives.

shaldna said:
Wow, that is actually incredibly dismissive. Who are you to dictate what constitutes as 'culture' and on how big a scale it should be? You're talking about what you see as a problem, but with this statement you are becoming part of what you are saying is a problem.

I'm painfully familiar with many Europeans and Euro-Americans making comparisons between modern-day PoC peoples and historically oppressed white ethnic minorities.

There is historic justification for that comparison, but for the most part, they are no longer true today, and for the most part, these groups have become a part of the dominant culture. I'm not saying there aren't comparisons to be made, but I am not concerned with them right now, because I think they mostly serve to downplay the PoC issues.

This is the PoC forum, and I am addressing a PoC issue.

kuwisdelu · Apr 20, 2014

VRanger said:
Respect is irrelevant to your question.

No, it's not. The phrase "no one owns a culture" is disrespectful itself.

Then you agree with me. My statement is that the important concept in portraying the culture is accuracy. That's what you just said too. We can close that one.

No. Accuracy merely a part of respect. Respect is important.

"no one owns culture"

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