"no one owns culture"

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kuwisdelu

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And I think an important issue to understand is that not all cultures are alike.

What is appropriation and what isn't can depend on the culture in question.

Note that this is not the same as saying that any culture is more important than any other.
 

kuwisdelu

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Legal ownership is necessary because we live in a society with IP Law. And it makes sense to assert it and try to recover lost IP. But, the deeper more personal level you framed this thread around does seem to be more about stewardship.

To respond to this a bit further, I've framed this thread on multiple levels. At least three distinct ones.

And on one level, I still have to challenge the "no one owns culture" assertion and attitude, regardless of the complexity of my own feelings on the concept of ownership.

The idea that no one owns a thing can only really work if we are all approaching it from equal footing.
 

buz

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And on one level, I still have to challenge the "no one owns culture" assertion and attitude, regardless of the complexity of my own feelings on the concept of ownership.

Hm. So, then, is it more the excuse that the phrase represents ("I can do whatever I want with whatever culture suits me because whatever!"), than the actual literal meaning of the statement, that is the objection?

Does the idea that culture cannot be owned exclude the concept of respecting cultures you don't belong to?

Just thinking...
 

kuwisdelu

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Hm. So, then, is it more the excuse that the phrase represents ("I can do whatever I want with whatever culture suits me because whatever!"), than the actual literal meaning of the statement, that is the objection?

Does the idea that culture cannot be owned exclude the concept of respecting cultures you don't belong to?

It means that:

The idea that no one owns a thing can only really work if we are all approaching it from equal footing.

It means that if you're coming from an outsider perspective and feel the need to assert "no one owns culture", then you should probably take a long and hard look at why you feel the need to assert it.
 

Lillith1991

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Certainly, and there is quite a quandary there. I can't speak for other cultures, but in the past, many native peoples were much more open. Anthropologists and ethnographers and linguists were welcomed and — though it took time — earned trust and were allowed access to our stories.

There were packaged and published and copyrighted the white author, and what were we to do? I understand that's how academia works (naturally, since I'm in academia!) but I think it's what happened afterward that really burned us. Other white authors read the versions written down by white men and transformed them even further until they fit the Disney fairy tale their readers wanted.

And we end up with Quileute werewolves.

Kuwis, you know how I feel about the Quileute werewolves from Twilight. Not only do they get portrayed as the nobel savage by Meyer in my view, she attempts to use the veneer of of them being Native American. And it is a veneer, not even a semi accurate portrayal of the culture she's using. She takes some general "native myths/beliefs" and then slaps the word werewolf on them.

Now, from the my perspective as person of ethnically mixed ancetry I claim my heritage. That is to say, I identify as mixed or black. But I acknowledge and take pride in the fact that in addition to European and African American roots, my family heritage includes a half Indian maternal grandfather. It also includes some Native American, and tribal Middle Eastern, and Jewish. I feel I am the sum of all those parts.

I don't go around calling myself Middle Eastern, or anything besides mixed/black though. Because I haven't been to any events centering around the Native community or the Jewish community since I was very small. And I've never been to events centering around the other two. They're part of me in that people from the different groups met, and fell in love. Producing offspring which would lead to me. But culturally I am a mix of mainly black and white.
 
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kuwisdelu

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Now, from the my perspective as person of ethnically mixed ancetry I claim my heritage. That is to say, I identify as mixed or black. But I acknowledge and take pride in the fact that in addition to European and African American roots, my family heritage includes a half Indian maternal grandfather. It also includes some Native American, and tribal Middle Eastern, and Jewish. I feel I am the sum of all those parts.

You are more than the sum of those parts.

I don't go around calling myself Middle Eastern, or anything besides mixed/black though. Because I haven't been to any events centering around the Native community or the Jewish community since I was very small. And I've never been to events centering around the other two. They're part of me in that people from the different groups met, and fell in love. Producing offspring which would lead to me. But culturally I am a mix of mainly black and white.

Being mixed myself, I am increasingly moving away from the idea of defining ourselves as "part this" or "part that".

We can describe our ancestry.

On my father's side, my great-grandmother was the daughter of Polish immigrants from East Germany. Her husband was a Swedish immigrant. On my mother's side, my family is Zuni, or Shiwi, and I have a distant Hopi ancestor somewhere in there, too, but I don't know who that person was.

Who am I? I don't want to be part anything. I'm Shiwi.

That doesn't mean I can't be something else, too.

We can use blood quantums, but they're just another way of dividing us into parts.

Have you read the Bill of Rights for People of Mixed Heritage?
 
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Lillith1991

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You are more than the sum of those parts.

You're right of course. :)

Being mixed myself, I am increasingly moving away from the idea of defining ourselves as "part this" or "part that".

We can describe our ancestry.

On my father's side, my great-grandmother was the daughter of Polish immigrants from East Germany. Her husband was a Swedish immigrant. On my mother's side, my family is Zuni, or Shiwi, and I have a distant Hopi ancestor somewhere in there, too, but I don't know who that person was.

Who am I? I don't want to be part anything. I'm Shiwi.

That doesn't mean I can't be something else, too.

We can use blood quantums, but they're just another way of dividing us into parts.

Have you read the Bill of Rights for People of Mixed Heritage?

And I think what wer're both trying to say is similar. I have this other heritage besides black and white but I identify with being mixed or black. It's no disrepct to my mother (mainly white), who tried to and succeeded in instilling a sense of pride in all my heritage. It's just that my experiences, especially outside the community, have been shaped by the fact my father is black. Thanks for the link btw, I'm going to go read it now.

ETA: ok, I've read it now. And I adore it. I'm thinking of printing it out, or maybe a blog post about it.
 
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aruna

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If a writer includes a culture foreign to him and gets it wrong, the remedy is that the writing lacks credibility, and critics WILL debunk the errors.

This doesn't necessarily happen. Take Guyana for instance. Very few novelists write books set there. Why should they? It's such a tiny country, and who cares!

But when a non-Guyanese does do so, it always seems a mess.
There's Di Morrissey, for example, a quite famous Australian novelist with many books under her belt. She wrote a book called When the SInging Stops, set in Guyana. We should be pleased, shouldn't we, that a famous writer chose to write about us?

But I found the book terrible. It centres around a group of ex-pats living in Guyana or visiting, and they discover some scandal being carried out by unscrupulous Guyanese, and of course save the day. All the Guyanese women are loud, raucous, shallow vamps. All the Guyanese men are scoundrels. Only the white ex-pats have ethics and morals and of course only they are the heroes. I read the book more than ten years ago and though I don't remember the details I do remember those points as my lasting impression.

I could of course write a review on amazon complaining about these things but with so many glowing reviews, what's the point? (Granted, only 8 five star reviews, but still...)

Then there's that famous Indian cricketer who wrote a memoir thinly disguised as a novel the Sly Company of People who Care set in Guyana and made a disaster of it (again: vulgar shallow Guyanese women) but because he is famous everybody praises the book as a literary discovery of the year and applauds it. Mostly, people who have never been to Guyana and take his vision as gospel.

I DID write a critical review of this. But the book was shortlisted for, or even won, the Man Booker Asian prize. What does my review count? :) But I think this is a good example of what kuwisdelu is talking about. Read my review, and see for yourself. One of the commenters assumed I was just jealous, and that I don't understand creativity!
 
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Kitty27

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You'll just have to trust me, NO ONE ELSE gets to.



No, I'm not going to read that sticky. That's absurd. I know that spurious arguments can be made to justify any faulty thinking, and that is faulty thinking. You see, I don't deal with a race or a culture, I deal with an individual when I meet him, socialize with him, and work with him. That doesn't make him the same as me, that makes him EQUAL to me. Differences in culture enrich the experience, they don't segregate it.

I suggest you DO read it and very carefully. If you can't abide by the rules,you can be removed from this thread and forum.

They are there for a reason and no one is excused from not following them.

Thanks,@Admin for cleaning this up.

This is an interesting discussion. Being AA,I could go on for pages and pages about cultural appropriation. The main problem in the AA community is that we never receive credit or things that have been going on in our culture for years suddenly become the "in" thing when done by others outside our culture. That is why we tend to be so protective of it and get upset.I can admit that I want my culture "owned" by us because of these issues. If respect and credit were given to the originators in our community,I don;t think it would be such an issue.

See Miley Cyrus and twerking,Macklemore being praised for his song when there have been other Black rappers who spoke out against homophobia,Kendall Jenner and cornrows, and the Harlem Shake just to name a few. I won't even go into historical things as that would really go on forever.Most Blacks were well and truly pissed to see The Help become this big thing when the real story has been told in our communities for decades by better writers and oral historians.

I think anyone choosing to write about another culture has to have common sense and some kind of empathy. Time and time again we see mess with our various cultures. It gets to the point where you almost wish things could be trademarked and folks sued when they are blatantly disrespectful or stereotypical.
 
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kuwisdelu

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Then there's that famous Indian cricketer who wrote a memoir thinly disguised as a novel (the Sly Company of People who Care) set in Guyana and made a disaster of it (again: vulgar shallow women) but because he is famous everybody praises the book as a literary discovery of the year and applauds it. Mostly, people who have never been to Guyana and take his vision as gospel.

I DID write a critical review of this. But the book was shortlisted for, or even won, the Man Booker Asian prize. What does my review count? :) But I think this is a good example of what kuwisdelu is talking about. Read my review, and see for yourself. One of the commenters assumed I was just jealous, and that I don't understand creativity!

See Miley Cyrus and twerking,Macklemore being praised for his song when there have been other Black rappers who spoke out against homophobia,Kendall Jenner and cornrows, and the Harlem Shake just to name a few. I won't even go into historical things as that would really go on forever.Most Blacks were well and truly pissed to see The Help become this big thing when the real story has been told in our communities for decades by better writers and oral historians.

I think anyone choosing to write about another culture has to have common sense and some kind of empathy. Time and time again we see mess with our various cultures. It gets to the point where you almost wish things could be trademarked and folks sued when they are blatantly disrespectful or stereotypical.

Thank you, both of you, for these great (and horrible) examples, of why this discussion is important. I was really hoping to get some examples from some fellow PoC from different backgrounds, because this is not unique or rare. Thank you.

ETA: ok, I've read it now. And I adore it. I'm thinking of printing it out, or maybe a blog post about it.

I think that link sums up some of my feelings better than I can say.
 
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aruna

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Just to add: many of my books are set in India. I am not Indian. I don't have a drop of Indian blood. I am also not Hindu, but I write about Hindu characters and their attitudes etc. But I have spent years of my life loving India, living there, knowing its people and its culture, understanding it, identifying with it.
So I would say I am qualified to write about India and Indians -- but should any Indian criticize any aspect of my book I'd be sure to take that criticism extremely seriously.
 

Lillith1991

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Thank you, both of you, for these great (and horrible) examples, of why this discussion is important. I was really hoping to get some examples from some fellow PoC from different backgrounds, because this is not unique or rare. Thank you.

I agree with Kuwis. You've both given great examples.

There is something that came to mind, a black civil rights activist who worked with King and was gay. Any time I've seen a documentary on this man it never gives equal treatment to both his life as a gay man, and as a black man. It seperates the two, and that frustrates me greatly. You can't do that. His experiences in the civil rights movement were colored by his being gay in a time it wasn't accepted, and his being black colored his experiene as a gay man.

Which leads me to this, getting frustrated when people cherry pick things about a culture or person and present it as this is it. Or as the other stuff isn't important. Because it is, to the person whose had those experiences. My cousins are mixed Khmer( Cambodian), and some are full blooded Khmer. If I wanted a Cambodian MC, I wouldn't just trust my own knowledge of the culture, or my cousins knowledge. I would ask my cousins grandmother (yiey) or yiey yiey ( great grandma). Because I would want to know the things my cousins who were born here wouldn't know. Cultural things that got lost on the way over during and after the genocide.

I think that link sums up some of my feelings better than I can say.
It's a very awesome summery. :D
 

kuwisdelu

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but should any Indian criticize any aspect of my book I'd be sure to take that criticism extremely seriously.

This is the important part, IMO.

I don't think any less of any author who honestly tries to portray a culture and fails to do so perfectly (which is probably impossible anyway). I'd hope the same assumption of good faith is given to me, too. I will, however, think less of an author who — when faced with such criticism — responds to it with culture-blind defensiveness and rationalizations that attempt to invalidate heartfelt critique.

There is something that came to mind, a black civil rights activist who worked with King and was gay. Any time I've seen a documentary on this man it never gives equal treatment to both his life as a gay man, and as a black man. It seperates the two, and that frustrates me greatly. You can't do that. His experiences in the civil rights movement were colored by his being gay in a time it wasn't accepted, and his being black colored his experiene as a gay man.

This is also a very important point.

Identities aren't additive.

You can't combine "gay" (and let's be honest, when people only say "gay", it's almost always code for "white and gay") and "black" (which is also usually code for "black and straight") and arrive at "black and gay". The black lesbian experience isn't just black plus lesbian. The gay native experience isn't just gay plus native. And so on.

(And statistical sampling bears this out, too. Last week I was on a diversity panel where the main speaker discussed his work in LGBT studies, and not only do all of these identities represent unique demographics, but you often can't capture them at all without focusing on them directly. Attempting to survey the gay population as a whole will underrepresent people who are gay and PoC, etc.)
 
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Sunflowerrei

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I own of my own mish-mash of cultures...emphasis on the mish mash. I'm Irish-Catholic on one side of my family. I'm not Catholic, I've not yet been to Ireland, and I don't look like the idea of a stereotypical Irish woman, so it's not like anybody ever figures that I'm half Irish.

But I'm aware of my Irish-American heritage--my grandmother used to have a crucifix, a shamrock, and a picture of President Kennedy by her front door. I grew up with Irish music, Irish songs, Irish soda bread, the vaunted Irish love of literature and history...the disdain for idiots who deck themselves in green on St. Pat's Day, then get sloshed without regard for why St. Pat is important in Irish culture...

But obviously, Rei's version of Irishness (TM) is not Irish-from-Ireland Irishness. My Irish culture has been filtered through four generations in New York City. My version of Irishness isn't even the one that my Irish-American first cousins have because they're Catholic and I'm not. At Easter dinner, we were talking about the time when my younger cousin learned that I'm not Catholic--he was about 9 and I was about 15.

I'm half Japanese on the other side and I'm more tied to Japan. I've actually been to Japan, for one thing. I have a ton of extended family there. I attended Japanese school from age 4 to age 18 and while I can't read or write it anymore, I can speak Japanese fluently, particularly the Kyushu dialect. I eat Japanese food. My Japanese grandparents immigrated along with my mom, aunt, and uncle, so I had family to reinforce language, values and cultural norms. But I am definitely half Japanese--there are some parts of Japanese culture that I can't wrap my head around, having grown up in America, with half of my family being Irish-Catholic. If you mention Memoirs of a Geisha (is that the only freaking novel people have ever read about Japan?), I will hit you.

At the same time, I've been exposed to lots of other cultures by growing up in New York. I grew up in a Jewish neighborhood. My closest friends are Jewish, Indian, black, Puerto Rican, Unidentifiable Bits of White. My high school was predominantly Russian. My co-workers are from everywhere. I feel like I can represent diversity well, but I want to respect and understand other cultures rather than cherry pick from them.

This discussion reminds me of a romance I once read. The heroine was half Scottish and half Chinese, which is close enough, in novels, to my own background that I felt really critical of the fact that the heroine knew an obscure martial art, explained feng-shui, Confucius, Buddhism, tai-chi, the Chinese writing system, issues of the opium trade, and tantric sex to the Scots/Brit hero. Am I glad that the heroine was different from heroines in most historical romances? Sure. Was I happy with this particular portrayal? Hells to the no.

And it seems I've written a novel here. Sorry, folks.
 

Lillith1991

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Cut for space.

Exactly. My experience as a mixed person aren't seperated by being visually african american, a woman, or a lesbian. They're entwined together, when I experience hatred because I'm a lesbian the person isn't going to ignore that to them I'm also black. Any prejudice the person has against black people, women in general, or the lgbt community. It will be directed at me as a whole, not in parts.

Which the reasons documentaries on that man piss me off. They treat things as additive. And they weren't.

Even within the gay community. When Fred Martinez was killed in a very horrible hate crime, they ignored that he was Navajo. There was arguments about whether he was transgender or gay. The fact that he identified as both gay and one of the four traditional genders in Navajo culture didn't matter. They still tried to seperate parts of him. The western mindset about things like this...it frustrates me.
 

kuwisdelu

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If you mention Memoirs of a Geisha (is that the only freaking novel people have ever read about Japan?), I will hit you.

Heh. I remember when the movie came out, and I heard about the controversy over a Chinese actress playing the lead, and then I read a bit more about the novel, and at first I was liked "wait, it's not a memoir?" and then I was like "wait, what about all the other issues here?"

(And it frustrates me as a fan of anime that I often feel like I have to distance myself from the Western anime community, which often doesn't seem to know anything at all about Japanese culture other than what they've "learned" via anime. It wasn't until I joined a kendo club that I met someone, a half-Japanese guy, with whom I could actually relate and share perspective with regarding anime.)

I'm saving up in hope of visiting Japan myself sometime. Looking into Japanese and other Asian cultures, I feel a sense of familiarity, and see lots of similarities with my own and other native cultures.

I had a wonderful conversation the other day with an Indian man (from India) about cultural and spiritual similarities between American Indians and (India) Indians. :tongue
 
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buz

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It means that if you're coming from an outsider perspective and feel the need to assert "no one owns culture", then you should probably take a long and hard look at why you feel the need to assert it.

Right, sorry, that's not quite what I meant--but I kind of lost the thread in unraveling the sweater, lol.

I was trying to chase the logic of the previous posts, where it seemed that ownership wasn't the right term--but then I realized you meant that ownership doesn't quite apply only within the insider group, and that the validity of the ownership concept is still there between non-POC and POC. Correct? Ya, I'm on board with that :)

So, then, going back to the original question--

Why do people believe this?
Maybe they believe it because the concept of ownership when applied to culture is, in fact, rather shaky--and sometimes when people run into something gray, they reject it; some people would rather live by absolute rules.

But...

it's still pretty easy to understand that it's not cool to take a culture that you don't belong to and shred it into something else to look like something convenient for your story (or whatever the situation is), yeah? Whether you phrase it in terms of ownership or belonging or not being a part of it or simply not living inside of it--that part seems clear to me, regardless of the question of what "ownership" means and when it applies. So:

How can we change this pervasive perspective?
I'm not even sure it's a question of changing the ownership logic, but rather changing the frame of mind that the excuse comes from, which, as usual, I think comes from things like not being able to (or not wanting to) see from the perspective of another...

However, again, I could be wrong, as my thinking abilities are not exactly top-notch, as evidenced elsewhere :) Heh.
 
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shaldna

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Actually, if it's about some other group heavily armed and with more wealth coming in and stealing your land and killing off your people, that's actually the experience of most groups of people at some point or other in history, unfortunately.

There are ways the Native American experiences are unique, but there are aboriginal peoples all over the world who have had similar experiences, along with peoples and nations from non-dominant and non-Western cultures.

I feel these two statements are very important to parts of the discussion that happened last night in relation to culture.

I appreciate, having re-read through a lot of the posts, were Kuw is coming from with regards to their own Native American heritage and the treatment of it. But I still stand by what I said last night that this isn't a colour issue, it's a culture issue and it happens, as has been said here, all over the world.

I used an example of my own country, which was dismissed because I'm white. But in terms of having culture stripped away, you'll be surprised to find how much the Irish have had taken from them in them through history - their religion (several times), their language, town names, land rights. Everything. And I'm not just talking in the last 200 years, I'm talking throughout history. That's why we hold on so tightly to our culture, but it blends. The old myths and stories merge with the more recent, customs, habits, things that make no sense to outsiders.

Is it annoying when cultural stereotypes make us cringe? Sure. I HATE seeing non-Irish people playing Irish folk on TV. I hate seeing Irish folk with the wrong accents or phrases for the area the character is from. We don't all sound the same. Hollywood thinks we do though.


I think by now, one could count Irish American and Irish as different cultures, couldn't you?

Certainly African Americans have developed culture that draws upon but is distinct from African cultures.


Now, from the my perspective as person of ethnically mixed ancetry I claim my heritage. That is to say, I identify as mixed or black. But I acknowledge and take pride in the fact that in addition to European and African American roots, my family heritage includes a half Indian maternal grandfather. It also includes some Native American, and tribal Middle Eastern, and Jewish. I feel I am the sum of all those parts.

Both of these statements raise something very important to this discussion. Increasingly people are more culturally mobile. They move, they marry people from other places, as a result they take parts of their own culture with them, bring other cultures back, produce children who grow up relating to several cultures or many. I think cultures are becoming more fluid in places - further upthread someone mentioned the South. This is a great example of where several very unique, very distinct cultures have come together and are creating something entirely new - taking from each culture, adding something new. Developing.


See Miley Cyrus and twerking,Macklemore being praised for his song when there have been other Black rappers who spoke out against homophobia,Kendall Jenner and cornrows, and the Harlem Shake just to name a few. I won't even go into historical things as that would really go on forever.Most Blacks were well and truly pissed to see The Help become this big thing when the real story has been told in our communities for decades by better writers and oral historians.

This is something I was trying to say upthread. It's a problem when people don't understand why they are doing what they are doing, the significance of it, the meaning or the history.

I think anyone choosing to write about another culture has to have common sense and some kind of empathy. Time and time again we see mess with our various cultures. It gets to the point where you almost wish things could be trademarked and folks sued when they are blatantly disrespectful or stereotypical.

Aye, bay Jaysus ye could'nee be more right.

See what I did there. :)

This is exactly the issue when writing about any culture. Do the research. Do it right or don't do it at all.


I own of my own mish-mash of cultures...emphasis on the mish mash. I'm Irish-Catholic on one side of my family. I'm not Catholic, I've not yet been to Ireland, and I don't look like the idea of a stereotypical Irish woman, so it's not like anybody ever figures that I'm half Irish.

'Cause we all look the same......... (hides red hair and green eyes)

To be fair though, despite having the hair and eyes and the faintly transparent skin of a 'typical' Irish woman, everytime I open my mouth, even here, people ask me where I'm from. I've given up telling them I'm local born and bred and just let them assume I'm Canadian.

But I'm aware of my Irish-American heritage--my grandmother used to have a crucifix, a shamrock, and a picture of President Kennedy by her front door. I grew up with Irish music, Irish songs, Irish soda bread, the vaunted Irish love of literature and history...the disdain for idiots who deck themselves in green on St. Pat's Day, then get sloshed without regard for why St. Pat is important in Irish culture...

And again, many of these things are pretty stereotypical and only representative of SOME Irish. Which is pretty interesting as the culture goes so much deeper than that and I bet there were many things you grew up with, that were part of your own family culture that you never had any idea were Irish or part of that culture (there was probably a Daniel O'Donnell tea towel somewhere - there always is). I just hope the soda bread was properly made and not that wheatgrain shite I seem to offered every time I'm in America. (rant rant, difference between soda and wheaten. grrr.) :)

All in all, having re-read this whole thread today, I think that, despite some initial teething issues, this has been a really interesting conversation.
 

Hapax Legomenon

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I don't know. I've never felt like I owned my "culture" or "sexuality," more just that I'm not entirely a part of the mainstream, which probably only makes things harder, not easier.

Despite being white, slhuang's post really spoke to me. Even though I did do "cultural" stuff as a kid, it mostly felt like going through motions, not like I "owned" any of it. I don't feel like it's a part of me the same way culture seems to be for other people -- I just feel more of a lack of what other people have.
 
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RichardGarfinkle

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I hope this isn't too much of a derail. It's been brewing in my mind for a time as kuwisdelu's been doing these very interesting threads about culture, religion, identity and race. I apologize in advance for the text wall. But it does tie in explicitly with the OP.

If nobody minds I'd like to talk about the Jewish-American experience, or rather the Jewish-American experience as perceived by a 52-year-old New York-born male with Polish and Russian Jewish ancestry who is by natural inclination an atheist. In short, my experience as part of a particular culture with associated religion, brought up in a particular historical period and place.

In a sense that's all any of us have of our cultures, the past as given us in the present and thoughts of the future.

Judaism is, if one is struggling with categories, four interconnected things: a religion, a culture, an internally defined people, and an externally defined race and religious role.

1. Judaism is a religion. As a religion, Judaism is classified as one of the three Abrahamic religions (for obvious reasons), but it is qualitatively different from most forms of Christianity and Islam because it is not an evangelizing religion. Indeed, it can be quite difficult to convert to Judaism. Some groups don't allow conversion at all.

Judaism isn't run or thought of as a universal religion. It's a religion of a particular people. It's also a religion focused on practice, not faith. It is what a person does and how they do it that matters in Judaism, not what they believe.

I've said before that it's possible to be an atheist Jew, and not difficult to be an agnostic one.

The differences in the various branches of Judaism aren't essentially doctrinal; they're differences of practice.

The fundamental question is how are the people supposed to live and act. Rabbis argue about this, creating variations, sometimes making major splits into categories of Judaism.

The observances are a combination of personal and cultural activities. There are commandments on individual actions and commandments for how the people as a whole are to behave.

These commandments are rooted in a particular set of books which for neutral terminologies sake I'll call the Hebrew Bible. If you're used to reading the Christian Bible, reading the Hebrew Bible is difficult, because there are a number of Christian teachings that universalize the Hebrew Bible, producing a radically different text.

The Hebrew Bible is a sacred history of a particular people. It chronicles, among other things, where people messed up and what corrections were done in that mess-up. If you look through the Hebrew Bible, you might notice one vital thing: there are no infallible human characters. Everyone messes up in ways that cause consequences and need correction.

Personally, I was brought up with various teachings of Judaism in a relatively relaxed environment. My parents didn't keep kosher (though my grandparents did), but did observe the holidays. We didn't go to temple, but I was Bar Mitzvah at 13, having been tutored by an interesting young Conservative rabbi (in the spectrum of observance strictness, Conservative is around the middle).

2. Judaism is a culture. Actually, this is a lie. Judaism is many cultures, thanks to the Diaspora. Jews scattered all over the place around 2000 years ago, and in each place they set up communities with various degrees of assimilation.

In America the dominant strain of Judaic culture came in from eastern Europe. It had a special language, Yiddish, and various different cultural experiences, from the shtetl (small town life) to the ghetto to the partially accepted middle class Jew to the rare upper class personage.

These amalgamated in New York during the late 19th and early 20th centuries and formed what people think of here as Jewish culture. It produced a particular strain of humor and literature, and because of a cultural emphasis on scholarship, a lot of nerds.

But there are other Jewish cultures in the US and many others elsewhere with different customs, languages and attitudes.

One of the crucial elements in the culture and in the religion, indeed one that is brutally reinforced several times in the Bible, is endogamy. The people are supposed to marry within the people.

In a number of traditions, being a member of the Jewish people is matrilineal. That is, if your mother was Jewish you are counted as Jewish (more about this on the matter of race below).

For me, the decision to marry outside the people didn't matter much. I was never very observant and my wife matters to me more than any of the culture. But it was a conscious choice. I knew that by most standards my children would not be of the people.

But, interestingly enough, the older generation of my family didn't care about anything but love. No one in my family has any problems with my wife or my sister-in-law or any of the next generation. My children and my nephews are part of the family, ergo part of the people. My family still has Passover seders, and my children were taught the stories of their ancestry. At some level they will decide what of the culture they choose to take with them.

But not everyone is as open minded. There are Jewish families, temples, and communities that, had I been born into them, would have shown me and my wife the door and not acknowledged the existence of our children. The different levels of strictness determine how the culture treats the people who might belong to it.

And therein lies the reason I'm posting this on this thread. Who decides who belongs? Can a person do so on their own or do they need to be welcomed by part of the culture? And if they are rejected by one part can they be accepted by another?

3. Judaism is an internally defined people. As noted above, Judaism is something one is born into. The Reform movement in Judaism allowed for either parent to be Jewish. The Conservatives are debating the point (The rabbi who tutored me is one of those leading the charge for change).

Being born into something like this leads to an aspect of self-definition and introspection. To be born with the claim that one has certain inherent responsibilities which one may later consciously choose to follow or not is, to my mind, part of the tension in the question of cultural and religious ownership/stewardship.

I am not an observant Jew (and I am an atheist). I don't think I can make any proper claim to much of Judaism. But I find myself having to take up the cultural and religious position of a person born and educated to Judaism in order to challenge certain positions and cultural assumptions.

So, without seeking to, or feeling properly qualified to, I find myself in a position of stewardship toward the culture and religion.

4. Judaism is an externally defined race and religious role. As a race, Jews have a completely different external definition from the internal one in 3.

It's pretty clear that most people who are prejudiced against Jews don't care about matrilinealism, cultural differences, conversions or much of anything else connected with the internal realities of Judaism. They're bigots. They define on their own terms and for their own convenience.

Part of this bigotry is tied to a reinforcing religious role. For millennia, the telling of the Christian passion involved the specific laying of blame on the Jews as a people. Thus there was a yearly reinforcement of this external, racial view.

Consciousness of this fact and the historical horrors it's produced also pushes a sense of stewardship. There is a real awareness that letting the matter go without comment is actively dangerous.

Unchallenged prejudice does not go away. It grows. The pogrom and the Holocaust are memories in my family, warnings about the fact that it may not matter how I define myself and my children define themselves. Others will impose their own definitions.

Thus cultural stewardship is, in part, a responsibility.
 

Sunflowerrei

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'Cause we all look the same......... (hides red hair and green eyes)

To be fair though, despite having the hair and eyes and the faintly transparent skin of a 'typical' Irish woman, everytime I open my mouth, even here, people ask me where I'm from. I've given up telling them I'm local born and bred and just let them assume I'm Canadian.


And again, many of these things are pretty stereotypical and only representative of SOME Irish. Which is pretty interesting as the culture goes so much deeper than that and I bet there were many things you grew up with, that were part of your own family culture that you never had any idea were Irish or part of that culture (there was probably a Daniel O'Donnell tea towel somewhere - there always is). I just hope the soda bread was properly made and not that wheatgrain shite I seem to offered every time I'm in America. (rant rant, difference between soda and wheaten. grrr.) :)

All in all, having re-read this whole thread today, I think that, despite some initial teething issues, this has been a really interesting conversation.

I hear ya on the transparent skin, Shaldna. Our last name isn't distinctly Irish either, so, you know, other people think we're Scottish. Why do they think you're Canadian?

For me, though, it was always pretty clear--because I'm 50/50--of what belonged to which culture or at least which side of the family it was from. There are certain qualities that side of my family exhibit or attitudes or viewpoints and they're not the "jolly friendly Irish people" qualities depicted in media. They're not the "alcoholic Irish Westie mobster" either. Not saying we're not friendly, but...

And yes, the soda bread is homemade. Not the wheat shit. Actual soda. Soda bread for St. Patrick's Day. Japanese mochi for New Year's.

(And it frustrates me as a fan of anime that I often feel like I have to distance myself from the Western anime community, which often doesn't seem to know anything at all about Japanese culture other than what they've "learned" via anime. It wasn't until I joined a kendo club that I met someone, a half-Japanese guy, with whom I could actually relate and share perspective with regarding anime.)

I'm saving up in hope of visiting Japan myself sometime. Looking into Japanese and other Asian cultures, I feel a sense of familiarity, and see lots of similarities with my own and other native cultures.

I've never been into anime, but I know people who LOVE it and yeah, they only know Japan through those anime. Or Memoirs of a Geisha. When, you know, at the time, my Japanese grandmother was actually learning how to kendo in case the Americans invaded.
 

J.S.F.

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I'm saying people often defend appropriation by saying "no one owns culture" (with an implicit "therefore, I can take it and use it however I want.")

I'm saying that's incorrect, and culture is owned by its people, and therefore appropriation is theft.

I'm saying this mindset that no one owns culture leads to appropriation, so how can we fix the mindset?

---

So what you're saying is, if I write a story about an American Indian, depict him in a positive light to the best of my ability after doing shitloads of research and speaking/writing to other Native Americans, and if the story is well received, then I'm still stealing and should be hung from a yardarm?

First of all, if I were a Native American, I'd wonder why some white/black/Asian person managed to write a novel that was well received by the general public and why another Native American couldn't do the same thing.

As for the mindset that no one owns culture, well, while I understand that it's a sensitive matter for any PoC, at the same time, if the subject matter is there and if the story is told with respect no matter who relates the tale, then would it not benefit all concerned?

Or am I being too naive in this?
 

kuwisdelu

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So what you're saying is, if I write a story about an American Indian, depict him in a positive light to the best of my ability after doing shitloads of research and speaking/writing to other Native Americans, and if the story is well received, then I'm still stealing and should be hung from a yardarm?

No, I never said that.

I've repeated several times throughout this thread that I think it's okay to borrow from a culture if it's done respectfully.

First of all, if I were a Native American, I'd wonder why some white/black/Asian person managed to write a novel that was well received by the general public and why another Native American couldn't do the same thing

If you want an honest answer, there are a few different reasons for this.

The most uncomfortable one is simply that most of those successful novels written about natives by non-natives package the native experience in stereotypes and romanticism with which the general public is comfortable. When you tell people about the racism and inaccuracies in their beloved romanticizations, they tend to get defensive, because they don't want that image spoiled.

For a non-native example, see Lilith's comments on Memoirs of a Geisha.

Another one is the assumptions and expectations of the publishing industry. They often believe people simply don't want to read books written from the perspective of natives/blacks/latinos/gays, etc. So the marketing isn't there, if you're lucky enough to get published in the first place. I think aruna can speak to the struggles she's faced with publishers who say they like her writing but no one wants to read about Guyana from the Guyanese perspective.

But when written from the white savior perspective, people eat up the stuff that confirms their stereotypes.

As for the mindset that no one owns culture, well, while I understand that it's a sensitive matter for any PoC, at the same time, if the subject matter is there and if the story is told with respect no matter who relates the tale, then would it not benefit all concerned?

Or am I being too naive in this?

For the most part, I agree. Sometimes, I think permission is still important.

There are some things about my own culture that I'm not allowed to write about it.

So I don't see why other people should get to claim the right to do so.
 
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J.S.F.

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No, I never said that.
---ME. Well, you did write that "appropriation is theft" so either I misunderstood or I didn't. You tell me and no, I'm not being snide.

I've repeated several times throughout this thread that I think it's okay to borrow from a culture if it's done respectfully.
--ME. I have no problem with this.


If you want an honest answer, there are a few different reasons for this.

The most uncomfortable one is simply that most of those successful novels written about natives by non-natives package the native experience in stereotypes and romanticism with which the general public is comfortable. When you tell people about the racism and inaccuracies in their beloved romanticizations, they tend to get defensive, because they don't want that image spoiled.

For a non-native example, see Lilith's comments on Memoirs of a Geisha.

Another one is the assumptions and expectations of the publishing industry. They often believe people simply don't want to read books written from the perspective of natives/blacks/latinos/gays, etc. So the marketing isn't there, if you're lucky enough to get published in the first place. I think aruna can speak to the struggles she's faced with publishers who say they like her writing but no one wants to read about Guyana from the Guyanese perspective.

But when written from the white savior perspective, people eat up the stuff that confirms their stereotypes.
---

I won't deny that stereotypes often figure into novels written about Native Americans (or other PoC) and that is most unfortunate. However, I'm the type of person--me, myself and I--that if I read a story about a culture not my own and if it's done in the most respectful way and that no one can find fault with it on any level, then I could care less who wrote it.

As for the assumptions and expectations of the publishing industry, again, that's unfortunate, but it's something that I have no control over.

I'd like to think that in time--and yes, it's long overdue--that the industry will change enough so that novels written by PoC and 'white people' (like me) about PoC if done well, will be received positively by everyone.

The thing is, though, is that when PoC say that they're the ones most qualified (not you, just a generalization) to write from their perspective (and they are) it can come across as a kind of intellectual/cultural snobbery and make it even more inaccessible to those who genuinely want to learn about that culture. JMO...
 

aruna

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What Kuwisdelu said. If you don't believe the bit about publishers not approving of Guyana as a setting, I have some evidence.

At present I'm revising a novel I wrote many years ago, which couldn't find an agent or publisher. I sent it to Hilary Johnson, a first-class editor, for an assessment back then, and the following is part of her reader's report:

The other commercial query that I have is whether Guyana as a background is sufficiently interesting to a UK readership. As a former colony it should have some resonance. But I doubt very much whether the average reader would be able to place it accurately on the map, let alone have any idea about the history and culture of the place. Some former British colonies have made a strong impact and novels set there remain perennially popular, others struggle. As a result most fiction editors have an in-built awareness of which backgrounds will sell and which won’t. Hence, for example, it is a truth universally acknowledged that novels set in the Indian subcontinent find more favour than those set in Africa or indeed in South America. It’s a fact of life and a perception that is difficult to change.


I note that your previously published titles have featured Guyana or had a Guyanese dimension but have also had a strong Indian connection and have tended – rightly or wrongly- to be classed commercially with novels about India. TSFODQ mentions India in that Rika is supposed to have left home to visit that country after the Indian love of her life was presumed dead in an accident. But the main thrust of the book concerns Guyana and the early years of two of the central characters who grew up there, plus the third main character’s introduction to the country. You cleverly focus on the fact that Frankie knows little about the country of her mother’s birth, preferring to think of herself as native of Streatham whatever her cultural heritage, thus allowing readers to see Guyana partly through her rather detached eyes.

Yes, there has been a growth in fiction titles which feature the diverse ethnic backgrounds of native Londoners in recent years. But I still wonder if this background is going to count against the novel. UK readers are notoriously insular in their likes and dislikes and reluctant to address their lack of knowledge about other countries. Clearly it’s up to an author to choose his/her own battleground and you have to write about what you know. But be aware that agents/editors may not necessarily welcome a Guyanese/English setting.

Hilary herself said this in her accompanying mail:
Personally, I liked the Guyanese setting, but concur with the reader about the insular nature of the mass market readership and the fact that it is India which seems to be the exception to this and which continues to go down well with British readers.
 
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