Why don't YA protagonists fight for social issues that don't personally affect them?

what? · Jun 5, 2014

If you look closely at YA fiction, you may be surprised to note:

All protagonists have been forced to act by an outside force!

There is always some disruption in the protagonist's private life, which causes them to take up arms. None of the YA protagonists note that something outside their own small lives is amiss and freely and without any obstacles to their own private goals decide to make it their cause and fight for some greater good. No YA heroine fights against human trafficing, child sexual abuse, poverty in third world countries (or local slums), political corruption, or a better educational system. They only ever fight for their love, their loved ones, or their "freedom" (whatever that is).

Why is that? Why are social and political issues only ever the background to a tale of finding private happiness (or revenge) in YA fiction? Is that because teens under 18 don't yet care about those issues? Are they too difficult to tackle in fiction? Not entertaining to read about?

* * *

After receiving the fist answers, I edited this question to better reflect my intention. The first answers still reflect the original post, which misleadingly dealt with the question of proactivity. Don't be confused ;-)

rwm4768 · Jun 5, 2014

What I often see is that the story gets going with a reaction to some major change. After that, though, protagonists often become more proactive.

Hapax Legomenon · Jun 5, 2014

I do not think proactive means what you think it means.

Sage · Jun 5, 2014

what? said:
None of the YA protagonists note that something outside their own small lives is amiss and freely and without any obstacles to their own private goals decide to make it their cause and fight for some greater good. No YA heroine fights against human trafficing, child sexual abuse, poverty in third world countries (or local slums), political corruption, or a better educational system. They only ever fight for their love, their loved ones, or their "freedom" (whatever that is).

Based on my personal experience, readers and editors want you to give that character a personal reason for it. The MC seeing injustice to people that doesn't affect him or her or someone he/she loves isn't enough.

When I was writing one query, I started with the MC joining a club to give a certain group rights. The expectation from every critter was that either he was part of that group or he had joined because of a crush on the girl who ran the club.

Today I'm going to have a conversation with an editor about the fate of his interest in this club. She doesn't believe that he can just be interested in rights for this group without hinting that he's one of them or suggesting that he's only following this girl. So she wants him to essentially be forced into the club by extenuating circumstances despite *disinterest* in the subject at first and slowly become interested. Everyone else in the club has an external reason, even the leader. The idea that he could just see an injustice and want to correct it is apparently unbelievable.

what? · Jun 5, 2014

Hapax Legomenon said:
I do not think proactive means what you think it means.

I understand what "proactive" means. Proactivity is anticipatory, change-oriented and self-initiated behavior (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proactivity).

While you can certainly react to an event in a proactive manner, I was taking the aspect of self-initiation a bit further.

what? · Jun 5, 2014

Sage said:
Today I'm going to have a conversation with an editor ...

I wish you all the best for that meeting!

Sage said:
The MC seeing injustice to people that doesn't affect him or her or someone he/she loves isn't enough.

Thank you for confirming my speculation.

Whitley · Jun 5, 2014

Although there may be an external event to give the character a kick in the pants, I think a character that chooses to act in response to the external force and continues to act despite all the bad things that happen is technically still a proactive character. Often times the MC's goal will change from the one originally created by the external force.

Let's be real--its human nature to get involved in things that have an impact on you in some way. Most people people don't sit down in front of a list of social causes, shoot a dart and get invested in the one the dart picks. So its unsurprising that editors, as Sage said, want to see some personal investment. People relate to personal investments because we all have them.

No YA heroine fights against human trafficing, child sexual abuse, poverty in third world countries (or local slums), political corruption, or a better educational system. They only ever fight for their love, their loved ones, or their "freedom" (whatever that is).

I'd be curious to see what YA books you have read.

Zoombie · Jun 5, 2014

I literally just finished reading all my Tamora Pierce books, and in most of them, the protagonists have a goal - usually kicking ass and taking names like a boss - and they go and set about doing it.

I find that proactivity and reactivity depend more on genre than market - which is what YA is at the end of the day.

For example: Superheroes. I've written three novels that are basically superhero novels (albeit with magical robots, lightsabers and mecha-hitler), and the superhero genre is fundamentally REACTIVE - mecha-hitler shows up and you need to smash their face. That doesn't change just because my characters are magical robot teenagers.

Meanwhile, I've read a contemp novel by my fab and fantastic friend, where the characters were active as whoa - mostly via trying to smootch each other in new and exciting ways, and to get money. It wasn't a world shattering goal (well, okay, some of the smootching was pretty awesome), but it was a goal that they worked with.

Both YA, but wildly different genres and characters.

Hapax Legomenon · Jun 5, 2014

what? said:
I understand what "proactive" means. Proactivity is anticipatory, change-oriented and self-initiated behavior (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proactivity).

While you can certainly react to an event in a proactive manner, I was taking the aspect of self-initiation a bit further.

What I mean is that there's no division between personal life proactivity and wider scope justice proactivity. They're both considered proactivity. I mean I guess it's a valid criticism that YA protagonists seem overly focused on their own personal lives rather than the world at large but it doesn't seem to have anything to do with proactivity.

Sage · Jun 5, 2014

What's funny is that high school and college students do join clubs all the time that don't personally affect them. I mean, I'm not going to lie, in high school, I joined key club, NHS, and CSF (California) for application reasons and they all had community service goals but that wasn't why I joined. However I joined ecology club because I was concerned about the environment. In college, where there is no application padding needed, I was heavily involved in the community service office, and I got a good idea of who really cared about one or multiple issues. Some of my best friends started a disaster relief club for international disasters that had absolutely nothing to do with them. They just cared.

Sage · Jun 5, 2014

But, I also think that there's nothing wrong with protagonists reacting to a situation that affects them or their loved ones. And just because they need a catalyst, doesn't mean that they can't be proactive for the rest of the book.

what? · Jun 5, 2014

Whitley said:
I'd be curious to see what YA books you have read.

I'd be curious to see what examples you can provide to the contrary.

Most YA books I read are by German language authors. There is one book by a Swiss author (Werner Egli), not translated to English, whose heroine begins her adventure by joining a group of teenagers who want to save some dolphins. It is the only example I currently remember where the plot does not begin with a discruption to the protagonist's private life. But of course I cannot possible have read everything. So I'd be more than happy if you could give me examples of other books where the lead character has a social or political agenda.

Middle grade books (in German) often have (child) protagonists who start out by wanting to help someone: save animals or the environment, integrate a minority member, and so on. German children's and middle grade books are very socially and politically aware.

I don't read any English language children's or MG books, so I don't know anything about them, but there is a huge social pressure on publishers of children's books in Germany to take up their social responsibility and educate children according to our society's central values, of which proactive social engagement is maybe the most fundamental. (You can see this in the difference between German and US foreign politics.)

There are many YA books on social and political topics, from racism to feminism, but to my experience they always start out with the protagonist either being the victim or someone drawn into the conflict, not someone observing a problem and deciding to make it their own. To me, there appears to be a shift between MG and YA books in this respect.

But again, that is my limited experience, and you are most welcome to prove me wrong. After all that is why I posted this question: To learn that I just hadn't read widely enough.

what? · Jun 5, 2014

Hapax Legomenon said:
... but it doesn't seem to have anything to do with proactivity.

Okay, I agree with that. Bad choice of title for this thread on my part. Unfortunately I seem to be unable to change it. Anyway, my question isn't so much about proactivity than it is about responsibility as the member of a community and citizen of this planet.

Hapax Legomenon · Jun 5, 2014

Sage said:
What's funny is that high school and college students do join clubs all the time that don't personally affect them. I mean, I'm not going to lie, in high school, I joined key club, NHS, and CSF (California) for application reasons and they all had community service goals but that wasn't why I joined. However I joined ecology club because I was concerned about the environment. In college, where there is no application padding needed, I was heavily involved in the community service office, and I got a good idea of who really cared about one or multiple issues. Some of my best friends started a disaster relief club for international disasters that had absolutely nothing to do with them. They just cared.

Right.

But proactivity and altruism are not the same thing.

I'm writing a novel with pretty much no impetus from the outside world. I found forums and resources to help me on my own. Nobody told me I should write a novel and there's nothing pressuring me to write a novel, it's just something I wanted to do, so I'm doing it.

This is proactive. I am proactively writing a novel. However wanting to write a novel is a selfish activity. Nobody but me is benefiting from it, really. But it is ultimately proactive.

Talking exclusively about things like social justice and environmental reasons, it sounds like you're talking about altruism. Meaning doing a good action that does not benefit the person doing the action at all. If a YA character gets involved with a social justice issue or whatnot because they are personally affected they are not acting out of altruism but they may be proactive in their activism.

Also you can change the thread title, I'm pretty sure.

Bufty · Jun 5, 2014

You should be able to change the thread title. Try Go Advanced when you are in the Edit mode.

ETA - I see you've managed to change it.

what? · Jun 5, 2014

Sage said:
... there's nothing wrong with protagonists reacting to a situation that affects them or their loved ones.

Certainly not. But to an adult like me, who is deeply concerned what this planet and your lives will be like when you are my age and population hits ten billion, the war on water drives millions of refugees to Europe, unemployment causes social unrest in Western countries, and so on, to me it is flabbergasting that none of the pressing problems of our time are reflected in YA fiction and its protagonists appear exclusively concerned with looking at their own belly buttons.

In this context, proactivity would mean to me that you take note of these problems and deal with them before they have developed to a state where any reaction on your part is in vain.

The_Ink_Goddess · Jun 5, 2014

Hapax Legomenon said:
Right.

But proactivity and altruism are not the same thing.

I'm writing a novel with pretty much no impetus from the outside world. I found forums and resources to help me on my own. Nobody told me I should write a novel and there's nothing pressuring me to write a novel, it's just something I wanted to do, so I'm doing it.

This is proactive. I am proactively writing a novel. However wanting to write a novel is a selfish activity. Nobody but me is benefiting from it, really. But it is ultimately proactive.

Talking exclusively about things like social justice and environmental reasons, it sounds like you're talking about altruism. Meaning doing a good action that does not benefit the person doing the action at all. If a YA character gets involved with a social justice issue or whatnot because they are personally affected they are not acting out of altruism but they may be proactive in their activism.

Also you can change the thread title, I'm pretty sure.

I agree. But I'm still confused. What exactly makes something a 'proactive' gesture? Lisbeth Salander hunts down murderers, rapists, bad guys and child abusers. She does this because she herself has been the victim of mistreatment and because her father is a criminal mastermind. I've seen agents complaining about exactly the kind of book you seem to believe to be 'better' than the others - they get annoyed by novels where the MC gets involved in a mystery just because they want to solve a mystery. I feel the same. If a plot happens SOLELY because the MC wishes it to (i.e. they're not motivated by protecting a family member, or avenging a friend, or any of those common motivators), it's hard not to feel like the conflict could be avoided just by the MC getting the fuck out of Dodge, if you catch my meaning.

what? · Jun 5, 2014

Bufty said:
You should be able to change the thread title. Try Go Advanced when you are in the Edit mode.

Thanks for that! I did. Now I need to edit my original post to better reflect my intent.

Sage · Jun 5, 2014

Those problems are in YA, it's just that it's already affecting the MC. There are several books about water wars, for example. But the characters (I believe--I've only read one) start out immersed (ha!) in the problem.

Actually this same book I'm editing started out with that being an issue too. Water, environmental stuff, organic/non-organic food, and the rights of a fictional set of people. Now it's just the latter two that are addressed and the food thing is more a character preference than an "issue".

The_Ink_Goddess · Jun 5, 2014

Well, in response to the new thread title: TO ME, the problem with that is, if it's not a matter of being personally affected, it kinda ends up with the question...why should I care? It's why those orphan ads do so well on TV. People like to see a HUMAN face on any suffering (i.e. Prim and Rue represent what is so bad about Panem).If the MC gets involved just because 'they care', people like to see somebody they care FOR, even if it's only a cute little dolphin they meet once :tongue

. If the MC's just doing it 'because they care', then one assumes they can withdraw their interest just as easily, which kinda takes the...stake out of the drama, often, if it's "all the MC's own fault", so to speak.

Hapax Legomenon · Jun 5, 2014

Well there's also the matter that by showing how issues affect characters in books it can show to real people that these are real problems, if not to people they directly know, and might encourage them into altruism, shrug.

Liosse de Velishaf · Jun 5, 2014

Well, you have to consider that most teenagers are dependent on others for their livelihood. They don't tend to have a lot of resources, (outside of say, powers in fantasy/paranormal), and they have little authority over others. They are also unlikely to be taken seriously by many adults (or other teens). So there's often a limit in that sense to how "proactive" the protagonist can be. Those disruptions are what give them the wherewithal to be proactive in the strictest sense.

But, some examples of active protags/teen characters: John Green's protags in Paper Towns and TFIOS are or become proactive. Ned Vizzini's MC in It's Kind of a Funny Story makes some incredibly pro-active choices.

Most people of any age are not particularly pro-active in a save-the-world or fight-for-a-cause-not-directly-affecting-me way. Would a detective in an adult mystery be proactive by your definition, what? I mean, the criminal is the one creating the disruption that drives the story. It's often the same in romance novels. Most mainstream/lit-fic novels have reactive protagonists in the sense that there is an event outside their control that has an effect on the story.

what? · Jun 5, 2014

The_Ink_Goddess said:
It's why those orphan ads do so well on TV. People like to see a HUMAN face on any suffering (i.e. Prim and Rue represent what is so bad about Panem).

That is actually a very enlightening comment.

Liosse de Velishaf · Jun 5, 2014

what? said:
Certainly not. But to an adult like me, who is deeply concerned what this planet and your lives will be like when you are my age and population hits ten billion, the war on water drives millions of refugees to Europe, unemployment causes social unrest in Western countries, and so on, to me it is flabbergasting that none of the pressing problems of our time are reflected in YA fiction and its protagonists appear exclusively concerned with looking at their own belly buttons.

In this context, proactivity would mean to me that you take note of these problems and deal with them before they have developed to a state where any reaction on your part is in vain.

What exactly is it that you expect a teenager to do about these problems? If prestigious adult climate scientists can't achieve major change, what is your average Midwestern American teenager gonna do about it? The same goes for the water wars. Or fighting unemployment.

what? · Jun 5, 2014

Liosse de Velishaf said:
What exactly is it that you expect a teenager to do about these problems? If prestigious adult climate scientists can't achieve major change, what is your average Midwestern American teenager gonna do about it? The same goes for the water wars. Or fighting unemployment.

Ha ha, yes, but:

(a) If Katniss can overthrow Snow's regime, certainly a tale can be told of how some other teen saves our world. It's fiction, after all, and there is not need to be realistic.

(b) The purpose of a book is not necessarily to show a practicable way of how one teenager may change our world, but to raise awareness. Authors and publishers have a tremendous impact on our society by directing the attention of the public. The readers of YA fiction of today are a large percentage of the adults of tomorrow, bringing their concerns to their jobs, their communities, and their families. If all they were taught to worry about is romance and adventure, then how will this world ever get better?!? But if most books (and movies) dealt with social issues, don't you think it might affect how the viewers and readers of those media thought and acted?

Why don't YA protagonists fight for social issues that don't personally affect them?

what?

rwm4768

practical experience, FTW

Hapax Legomenon

Sage

Supreme Guessinator

what?

what?

Whitley

Zoombie

Dragon of the Multiverse

Hapax Legomenon

Sage

Supreme Guessinator

Sage

Supreme Guessinator

what?

what?

Hapax Legomenon

Bufty

Where have the last ten years gone?

what?

The_Ink_Goddess

we're gonna make it out of the fire

what?

Sage

Supreme Guessinator

The_Ink_Goddess

we're gonna make it out of the fire

Hapax Legomenon

Liosse de Velishaf

what?

Liosse de Velishaf

what?