White Samurai and Gryphons (Yet another diversity in YA thread.)

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I mean I'm looking at my WIP. Right now I've got Japanese architecture, Dutch bike culture, Brazilian caffeinated drinks, American digital footprinting and security theatre, Italian and Iranian names with a smattering of others, a perpetual 13-month calendar, and it's hard to even begin to guess where their religion comes from... It's not new, it's a patchwork of old. I can't imagine a new culture because I live in the real world and inevitably I am drawing from what I know.

I don't see any of those things as particularly appropriative in the abstract.


Kristoff and friends aren't doing patchwork, though. They're doing inaccurate-through-ignorance/exoticism.




I think the poem in this describes the feeling of culture being appropriated pretty well: http://www.irosf.com/q/zine/article/10087
 
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Zoombie

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Hmm...

So, I'm plotting out my newest book, which is a part of the series I mentioned beforehand - which takes a few bits from many cultures...and there has been a running subtext that the language that they use isn't really English, which I have mostly communicated through little inconsistencies and grammatical references. (There are a few references to interfixs, which English doesn't...really have. Unless you count fucking, as in abso-fucking-lutely)

So, when a character says a name like "Vengeful Crystalline Hawk 45C", it is actually a lot less clunky and more elegant in the language they are speaking. But since I'm not typing that out every single time I want to refer to the main character, I shorten it to Cee, to capture that quickness and informality, and use the full name only when someone is adding honorifics or being more formal.

Now, understanding this, I'm just wondering...

Would it be cultural appropriation to refer characters as "Ronin."

Since, they're not ACTUALLY masterless Samurai, but the term Ronin is a fast, easy way to convey that meaning and "vibe" than to say "Voluntarily Unenlightened Warrior Champions."

What do you guys think?
 

Little Ming

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Now, understanding this, I'm just wondering...

Would it be cultural appropriation to refer characters as "Ronin."

Since, they're not ACTUALLY masterless Samurai, but the term Ronin is a fast, easy way to convey that meaning and "vibe" than to say "Voluntarily Unenlightened Warrior Champions."

What do you guys think?

If there are other words from other non-English languages in your story, I probably wouldn't bat an eye at ronin or samurai. It would just be part of the mix-of-cultures world-building.

If everything else was from English/western culture/language, and suddenly ronin and samurai was just thrown in there, that might raise an eyebrow. Not necessarily the "cultural appropriation" eyebrow, but more of a "huh?" eyebrow.
 

Nogetsune

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Is the language they are speaking Japanese? If so, why? Did something happen in your setting that -somehow- made Japanese the dominant language? If the language they are speaking isn't Japanese, and Japanese has not been established as a dominant language in the setting I'd probably use another term other then ronin. If they are using a real world language that isn't Japanese, I'd search for a term in that language that means roughly the same thing. If they are speaking a fantasy language, then I'd just invent my own made-up term.

If Japanese is the dominant language, however, then you had better provide a good reason for it. If your story is in "fantasy Japan" then you don't need much, but considering it's a melting pot setting you'll need a reason why all these earth cultures seemingly exist in a totally non-earth world(such as say said fantasy world getting colonized by a collection of culturally diverse earth people thousands of years ago or something.) Now, if it's ACTUALLY earth, but with added magic and/or in the future, and Japanese is the dominant language, you still can't get off without an explanation for why. I have a version of earth like this in one of my stories where both Japanese and English are the most dominant languages. The protagonist(who is culturally American/quite distanced from Japanese culture despite being half-Japanese in terms of genetics.) speaks both English and Japanese, and you can tell when she's speaking which due to subtle grammatical difference and the use of honorifics in speech(to which I plan on providing a glossary/guide for those who don't know how they work and what they mean.).

Now, on this "fantasy/SF/AU earth" Japanese is such a dominant language because the most powerful organization on the planet is a megacorp that was born from a partnership between a powerful Japanese business family and a deranged yet ingenious American inventor who had been living in Japan for some time prior. The corporation itself is an east meets west affair, but the fact that it was born in Japan means that it is directly influenced by that culture and uses it's language.(..I've actually done significant research on various business/corporate structures in Japan specifically with the intent to make this company an accurate depiction of what a "new age zaibatsu" would look like if it existed.)

Now, since this corporation essentially rules the planet at the start of the story, the 'excuse" for Japanese being a dominant language is the sheer power this corporation holds and the influence it has had on politics, business and every sphere of life for many , many years. Due to Japanese being a dominant language in this setting a white person speaking English injecting the term "ronin" into their English speech would not be an -issue- because I have established that Japanese is now a dominant language used everywhere, and in the real world today you see other cultures sometimes using English words or vairations of them in their speech due to it's dominance. Heck, in Japanese you get stuff like doragon, a Japanese spin on the English "dragon"(where as the actual Japanese word for dragon would be Ryū, which while still used to say what it means has a very different connotation then doragon(the latter being the go-to term to describe Europian/western style dragons, among other uses) or tekunorojī which is derived from the English "technology."

Now, if they are speaking in English it's fine to directly interject ronin if you have established Japanese as the dominant language as in English today we pronounce the word "ronin" as "ronin." However, if injecting "ronin" into non-english, non-Japanese speech, you may have to do some more research. As stated with the Japanese examples I gave, while doragon and tekunorojī are derivatives of english words, they are not pronounced or even spelled the same way as their english twins. They are distinctly -Japanese- and thus if the language your characters are speaking in tends to use words from other languages only in this way rather then porting the direct word from the other language you may have to adjust "ronin"'s spelling and pronunciation accordingly. In addition, not every language incorporates words from other languages, even with altered spelling, grammar and pronunciation. If the language they are speaking is one of these, then using "ronin" in any form should not even be considered.

So, whether or not you can use "ronin" either directly or with slight alteration really depends on the setting, what language they are speaking and how it's being used. So tread with caution and be sure to do your research before you throw around the term. Of course, this could also be the "paranoia" label I get thrown at me about my "excessive" desire for accuracy when it comes to these things, so take it for what you will.
 
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Hapax Legomenon

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A language does not have to be the dominant language to have influence. Many Japanese words have been absorbed into English, and as far as I know there's not really an equivalent, so there might be grounds to use the word.

If it was the only foreign term used in the book I would question it, and if it's only one of a few, I'd make sure your readers knew what it meant.
 
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Anna L.

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There's a bit of Japan-based SFF out there but the only authors in the genre I can recommend right now are Zoe Marriott (novels) and Eugie Foster (short story collections).
 

Nogetsune

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@ Hapax Legomenon: I do agree with that, but using it would still depend on it's context and what language they are speaking. In English, throwing around terms like 'ronin" and "samurai" would be a-ok in most cases as these terms are prevalent in our society because of media, academia, contact with Japan and many, many other factors I won't list. An American otaku talking about how cool this "ronin" was they saw in a manga/anime or a British professor of East Asian studies using the term in a lecture etc.. would all be fine. However, in Zoombie's case, the way they are using it would require certain things to make it logical because he's using it in a way it's not used now. When we use terms like "ronin" and "samurai" in English, we are referring to actual ronin and actual samurai, with the connotation that they are distinctly Japanese terms. When we say ronin, we imaging a katana-weilding master-less samurai dressed in his ō-yoroi armor. We do not call a Europian style knight, even if he has no master and comes from a fantasy world a "ronin"...we call him a master-less knight, or maybe something along the lines of a "rogue knight" or "blackguard"....but never a "ronin"

In zoombie's case, it appears they run the risk of ignoring this fact without establishing sufficient explanations for why the term is used differently then it is now by their characters. If what I got was correct, they are using the term "ronin" as more pleasant/"cool" sounding stand in for the idea of a "Voluntarily Unenlightened Warrior Champion" which is a concept that is not tied exclusively to Japanese culture or even the idea of a master-less samurai. A "Voluntarily Unenlightened Warrior Champion" could just as easily be a disgraced medieval European knight with his full plate and greatsword or a court-marshaled WWII soldier wielding an automated rifle as it could be a master-less samurai. If that master-less medieval knight or court-marshaled WWII soldier showed up in English speech today, we would not call them a "ronin" normally. Thus, using "ronin" as a catch all term like that is dangerous waters to tread unless there is a legitimate and logical explanation for why it is used as a catch-all term in the setting.

Japanese being a highly dominant language and thus forcing itself upon people for many years is one such reason, which is why I mentioned it. The character using the term in that way being a diehard, eccentric and culturally ignorant weebo/otaku/Japanophile could be another. I'm sure a creative enough person could come up with others. The point is that for the term to be used in the way Zoombie seems to want to use it there has to be -some kind- of logical explanation as the term is not normally used that way in English today. Even if you don't consider it appropriation the fact that it's not something done in the English language normally will be jarring to readers and hinder their suspension of disbelief....that is if no proper and logical explanation is given. Now, it can CERTAINLY be done, so if you are reading this Zoombie don't get discouraged. Just know that to use it like that you'll have to get a bit creative, and being creative has never been a bad thing. =)
 
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lilyWhite

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I read the original post yesterday, and I have to be completely honest: when I read that there were samurai and gryphons in this book, I immediately pictured a gryphon-riding samurai and thought, "holy cow, that is freaking awesome!"

I'm certainly not an advocate for the idea that stories that draw inspiration from other cultures and their mythology should only draw inspiration from that one culture or that they need to stay completely true to the culture and mythology—many of my favourite fantasy stories and settings are those that draw influence from many different mythological sources. A great deal of those, incidentally, are Japanese RPGs, a great deal of which draw from medieval European culture. Needless to say, very few of them accurately portray it.

I'm very curious as to whether any glaringly-inaccurate depictions of medieval Europe or its culture have ever been considered "offensive" and "cultural appropriation".

Here are some links going into detail on the offensiveness of the appropriation present in Stormdancer:

I have to be perfectly blunt here regarding that third link (the "ladybusiness" one): it's a little difficult to think highly of that person's opinion when they declare that people who don't agree with them regarding Stormcaller's "appropriation" must be white.

Now, understanding this, I'm just wondering...

Would it be cultural appropriation to refer characters as "Ronin."

Since, they're not ACTUALLY masterless Samurai, but the term Ronin is a fast, easy way to convey that meaning and "vibe" than to say "Voluntarily Unenlightened Warrior Champions."

What do you guys think?

There's thousands of words in the English language and/or used in English-speaking societies from other languages and cultures to describe concepts and things. For example, is the use of "assassin" "cultural appropriation"?
 

Hapax Legomenon

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I guess it is less of a cultural appropriation thing and more of the fact that the word "ronin" brings to mind a very particular type of person in the way "rogue knight" does not. It'd be one thing if the entire story plays fast and loose with vocabulary (as a lot of what I've been reading recently does) but it's another if it's one of a few words used. I have had to change the words used to describe some characters already despite the ones being used being perfectly *technically* accurate but readers kept getting sidetracked by their connotations instead.

I guess one solution is to add a modifier. "Samurai" brings up one image but "street samurai" brings up another. But yeah, you'd have a lot easier time with people accepting the word "ronin" at all if Japan or a fantastical counterpart just plain old even exists in the story.
 
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Zoombie

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Fortunately, it is a fact in my setting that movies, books and even video games have been imported to Earth - though, about 100 years before the latest novel begins, that gateway is cut off.

So, they have Earth culture up to 2002, meaning plenty of room to get things like Ronin.
 
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Hmm...

So, I'm plotting out my newest book, which is a part of the series I mentioned beforehand - which takes a few bits from many cultures...and there has been a running subtext that the language that they use isn't really English, which I have mostly communicated through little inconsistencies and grammatical references. (There are a few references to interfixes, which English doesn't...really have. Unless you count fucking, as in abso-fucking-lutely)

So, when a character says a name like "Vengeful Crystalline Hawk 45C", it is actually a lot less clunky and more elegant in the language they are speaking. But since I'm not typing that out every single time I want to refer to the main character, I shorten it to Cee, to capture that quickness and informality, and use the full name only when someone is adding honorifics or being more formal.

Now, understanding this, I'm just wondering...

Would it be cultural appropriation to refer characters as "Ronin."

Since, they're not ACTUALLY masterless Samurai, but the term Ronin is a fast, easy way to convey that meaning and "vibe" than to say "Voluntarily Unenlightened Warrior Champions."

What do you guys think?

Actually, I'm not sure I would count that as appropriation. The term ronin itself has already been used in contexts not referring to samurai by Japanese sources, although there is still a certain culture context around those uses.

However, I have no doubt there would be some people who would not like the use of the word in such a context as you describe, although I don't know that they would use the word "offensive".

I read the original post yesterday, and I have to be completely honest: when I read that there were samurai and gryphons in this book, I immediately pictured a gryphon-riding samurai and thought, "holy cow, that is freaking awesome!"

The awesomeness of a concept has little to do with its status as appropriation.

I'm certainly not an advocate for the idea that stories that draw inspiration from other cultures and their mythology should only draw inspiration from that one culture or that they need to stay completely true to the culture and mythology—many of my favourite fantasy stories and settings are those that draw influence from many different mythological sources. A great deal of those, incidentally, are Japanese RPGs, a great deal of which draw from medieval European culture. Needless to say, very few of them accurately portray it.
There's certainly an amount of appropriation in the literal sense of the word there. However, the influence it has on perceptions of actual European culture is incredibly small.

I'm very curious as to whether any glaringly-inaccurate depictions of medieval Europe or its culture have ever been considered "offensive" and "cultural appropriation".
There's a power relationship involved that generally precludes such a consideration. As I mentioned above, these glaringly inaccurate portrayals not only have little influence on perceptions of actual European culture, most people are aware that they are glaringly inaccurate.



I have to be perfectly blunt here regarding that third link (the "ladybusiness" one): it's a little difficult to think highly of that person's opinion when they declare that people who don't agree with them regarding Stormdancer's "appropriation" must be white.
Disagreement about appropriation has nothing to do with race/ethnicity. A black Westerner can just as easily appropriate Asian culture as a white one. Or a Latino, or whatever.

There's thousands of words in the English language and/or used in English-speaking societies from other languages and cultures to describe concepts and things. For example, is the use of "assassin" "cultural appropriation"?
Maybe? But it's pretty well divorced from its origins in most Westerners' minds. I'd classify it more as semantic broadening than cultural appropriation. Borrowing a word does not necessarily equal cultural appropriation. It depends on the circumstances of the borrowing. For example, I wouldn't classify "tsunami" or "sushi" as appropriation. Or "katana". Or "taco", for that matter. (Some people might disagree with me.)




As a general comment, there's a blurry line between cultural appropriation and ignorance, and Stormdancer is chock-full of both.
 
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Little Ming

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To be honest, I don't think Kristoff should have made his world more accurately Japan; instead, he should have distanced himself from real Japan and developed a more original world. There's a fine line between "inspired by Japan" and "this is actually Japan, but I didn't do the research, so I'm just going to pretend it's not." And I think Kristoff crossed that line. You don't get to create a world that looks like Japan, sounds like Japan, has Japanese culture, Japanese foods, uses random Japanese words (sometimes incorrectly), characters dress in Japanese clothes, the architecture is Japanese, and even the island where the story is set looks suspiciously like Japan, and then say "nope, it's not," because you've already set it up in your readers mind that it is.

Either create an original world inspired by Japan, or do the damn research and get it right.

From Book Smugglers:

I found the expectation that readers are supposed to accept that the world of Shima (the setting in the book) and Japan “might look a lot alike but, aren’t the same place” to be disingenuous. Especially taking into consideration the fact that EVERYTHING about the book screams Japan: the language; the descriptions of the people and the culture; the very cover of the book and the character represented on it.
Sorry, you don't get to eat your cake too.
 
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To be honest, I don't think Kristoff should have made his world more accurately Japan; instead, he should have distanced himself from real Japan and developed a more original world. There's a fine line between "inspired by Japan" and "this is actually Japan, but I didn't do the research, so I'm just going to pretend it's not." And I think Kristoff crossed that line. You don't get to create a world that looks like Japan, sounds like Japan, has Japanese culture, Japanese foods, uses random Japanese words (sometimes incorrectly), characters dress in Japanese clothes, the architecture is Japanese, and even the island where the story is set looks suspiciously like Japan, and then say "nope, it's not," because you've already set it up in your readers mind that it is.

Either create an original world inspired by Japan, or do the damn research and get it right.

From Book Smugglers:

Sorry, you don't get to eat your cake too.



That's a fair point. I've never bought the claim that it's "not really Japan", and more than I cared for the claim that Ravka from shadow and bone was not Russia. And Ravka was much more removed from Russia than Shima was from Japan.



But I'm not sure if that's because of the cultural appropriation, or just because I find wholesale snagging uncreative.
 
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Little Ming

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But I'm not sure if that's because of the cultural appropriation, or just because I find wholesale snagging uncreative.

Also, laziness--which I suspect might be the root cause of the bigger problems. You can just "borrow" the culture from anime/other pop-culture/wikipedia articles without needing to do any research, and when you're called out for getting something wrong you have the "excuse" that it was never a real place to begin with. No original world-building or actual research required.
 
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Also, laziness--which I suspect might be the root cause of the bigger problems. You can just "borrow" the culture from anime/other pop-culture/wikipedia articles without needing to do any research, and when you're called out for getting something wrong you have the "excuse" that it was never a real place to begin with. No original world-building or actual research required.


Laziness is the original sin.
 

Windcutter

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That's a common excuse made by authors who engage in cultural appropriation. But if it's not really Russia (or Japan), then why use such a large number of elements lifted from that culture? And further, the evidence suggests that most of the problems resulted from ignorance or not caring, rather than any attempt to intentionally distance the fantasy versions from the real ones. Jay uses a badly researched attempt at real Japanese in his setting, in several places in the novel. "Arashitora" for example, is constructed from the Japanese words for "storm"(arashi) and "tiger"(tora), and there is a great deal of similar construction in the novel. Shadow and Bone was the result of a similar ignorance, not an intentional act. And "Shima" (the Japanese word for "island", resulting in the cringe-inducing "Island Islands"), is very much pretending to be Japan.

Again, it was not that alternative.
Thanks for the links! (I snipped the quote.)
I think this is one of the cornerstones of the whole issue of cultural appropriation in fantasy. There is always that excuse I provided myself in the previous comment--"this is not the real Japan/Russia/whatever", but there is also the unmistakable similarity that goes beyond simply using some recognizable elements. Like, I could make up a fantasy world in which people wore silk robes, admired fine swords, used battle fans, and bred extra large and beautiful goldfish in their garden ponds, and no one would truly accuse me of anything because it's pretty vague.

I also don't understand the reasons for using real language (or something close to it, anyway) in such a setting. Making up a fantasy language is difficult and not always useful, but using a real language only makes it less fantasy-like, more grounded and also likely to get ripped apart by people who actually know the language in question.

Also, no matter how well the research is done, the fantasy nature of the plot will skewer some of it. Isn't it easier not to go into too much detail?
 

Hoplite

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Let me see if I'm understanding people's opinions in this thread. If my understanding is correct, then I'm in agreement.

1) Basing a fantasy work on a real-life culture is okay, just make it clear that the work is fantasy and make your own significant contributions.

2) Even if your only using a real-life culture as your base, gross misuse of terms and symbols is a no-no (i.e. describing samurai as an unarmored peasant farmer).

3) Don't write an non-researched historical novel and try to pass it up as fantasy to make your life easier.

I'll elaborate with a few examples using ancient Greek culture (no surprises there, look at my avatar):

A story about a Spartan warrior fighting in the Persian Wars, well researched and accurately portrayed, is okay.

A story about a Spartan warrior fighting in the Persian Wars atop his Pegasus and wielding Zeus' lighting bolts, while adhering to otherwise accurate history and culture at the time, is okay.

A story set in fantasy land featuring what looks like a Spartan warrior on his Pegasus with lightning bots, while making significant contributions to distance this mythical land from real history, is okay.

A story set in fantasy land featuring a warrior dressed like a Spartan (but he's not), and acting like a Spartan (but he's not), and fighting an enemy that looks a lot like the Persians (but they're not), and riding on a winged horse, is not okay.

The last case I see as an attempt by the writer to avoid having to do any research to maintain any historical validity, and/or avoiding having to do any world-building to create their own...world. I ask this because I have been interested in writing stories that while historically accurate, feature elements of the fantastic (e.g. Spartans riding Tyrannosaurs), and I don't wont to come across as trying to appropriate any culture.
 

Little Ming

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....

A story set in fantasy land featuring a warrior dressed like a Spartan (but he's not), and acting like a Spartan (but he's not), and fighting an enemy that looks a lot like the Persians (but they're not), and riding on a winged horse, is not okay.

I don't want to say that this is absolutely "not okay," because a lot of it will depend on execution.

Something that wasn't explicitly discussed in this thread was Kristoff's reaction in an interview when asked about cultural appropriation, and he kind of (paraphrased): Can't please everyone. I changed somethings around. It's not Japan. To me, at least, that seemed disingenuous. And lazy. And I think that *shrug* to cultural appropriation further confirmed that he really just didn't care.

If you really do care, even you you make some mistakes along the way, it will probably help. ;)

The last case I see as an attempt by the writer to avoid having to do any research to maintain any historical validity, and/or avoiding having to do any world-building to create their own...world. I ask this because I have been interested in writing stories that while historically accurate, feature elements of the fantastic (e.g. Spartans riding Tyrannosaurs), and I don't wont to come across as trying to appropriate any culture.

Again, execution is key. But it sounds okay so far. ;)
 
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Thanks for the links! (I snipped the quote.)
I think this is one of the cornerstones of the whole issue of cultural appropriation in fantasy. There is always that excuse I provided myself in the previous comment--"this is not the real Japan/Russia/whatever", but there is also the unmistakable similarity that goes beyond simply using some recognizable elements. Like, I could make up a fantasy world in which people wore silk robes, admired fine swords, used battle fans, and bred extra large and beautiful goldfish in their garden ponds, and no one would truly accuse me of anything because it's pretty vague.

Actually, I don't know that your example is that vague. I was with you through silk robes, since many cultures used silk, even if it came from Asia and tended towards different styles. Fine swords were also commonly admired in many cultures, although if you're using an obvious katana clone, I might question it.

But here's where I hit an issue: If it's not Japan, why are you including details such as the fish and the battle fans? I wouldn't necessarily call that cultural appropriation, but it would be a flag for me. Not red, but maybe yellow.

One of the major flags for appropriation is unique or uncommon details that exist in the real-world version.


As has been said before, it really depends on the execution.
 

Hapax Legomenon

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But here's where I hit an issue: If it's not Japan, why are you including details such as the fish and the battle fans?

Maybe because the cities are also full of canals and windmills keep the place from flooding and they plant prized tulips beside their goldfish ponds?