gender neutral pronoun

Cyia · Dec 6, 2014

I've got a character with a friend named Crusoe. Crusoe is biologically male, but gender-fluid. There's no big fight about male or female in the novel, but I need to use a pronoun when the character is being discussed or referenced, and I'm wondering if it's okay to refer to Crusoe as "he" for ease of conversation.

Like literally put that in as a line.

"Crusoe is just Crusoe, but he uses "he" to make it easier on everyone else. It's what people assume, and he doesn't correct them."

Or something like that.

Help?

Crusoe is a positive character. It's not an issue story, and there's no bullying involved. The character has an androgynous appearance, and when first seen is in transition from a very long-haried feminine look to one that gradually shifts toward the masculine as Crusoe finds his current comfort zone.

Muppster · Dec 6, 2014

They/them? Avoids the confusion of assuming/presuming this character's gender is their biology, or that maleness is the better option.

There's a table here (about half-way down) of various gender-neutral pronouns you could try on for size.

Cyia · Dec 6, 2014

Polenth said:
But what you're saying here seems more you want to use that option to make it easier on you as an author, and that's not the same thing as depicting someone as a person without a strong pronoun preference.

Actually, I meant it as both - easier for me, and for the character.

I'm confused about the use of "they" as a singular pronoun.

For example, a line like:

His hair, which until Tuesday had hung to the small of his back, was now chopped shorter and barely to his shoulders.

"I'll probably take it higher by the weekend," he said.

Would it become:

Their hair, which until Tuesday had hung to the small of their back, was now chopped shorter, and barely hung to their shoulders.

"I'll probably take it higher by the weekend," they said.

Wouldn't an editor flag it for misuse of plural vs. singular?

Also, I didn't realize that "biologically" was used as a negative by some people. I'm sorry. I certainly didn't mean it that way, but I'm glad you brought it up because I would have written it that way in the novel. Now I can fix it.

Ken · Dec 6, 2014

maybe risk redundancy and do without the pronouns, entirely:

crusoe did this then crusoe did that and then crusoe did this, etc

also, of course, eliminate reference to crusoe whenever possible (let context say so)

E.g. Crusoe is nice. I wouldn't mind being pals ~~with him~~.

do this with half the pronouns and half your problem is solved

Dennis E. Taylor · Dec 6, 2014

English really needs a single-person gender-neutral pronoun.

Depending on your genre, if you're feeling adventurous, you could introduce one. Like he/she, his/her, le/ler. It would take the reader a couple of pages to get used to it, then it would be like fish in water. Who knows, might even catch on.

benbradley · Dec 6, 2014

Cyia said:
Actually, I meant it as both - easier for me, and for the character.

I'm confused about the use of "they" as a singular pronoun.

For example, a line like:

Would it become:

Wouldn't an editor flag it for misuse of plural vs. singular?

I think "they/them" would be called gender-indeterminate (not that the person is or isn't a certain gender, but that you don't know which they [or he-or-she] are) when used as singular, and there does appear to be significant use for that:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/video/index.php?id=0033-hisher&pid=mw_video

King Neptune · Dec 6, 2014

You have four pronouns to choose from: he, she, it, and one. "It" and "One" are both of the neuter gender. Crusoe is your character, so you probably should use whatever your character would use. The traditional default in English is the masculine pronoun when the sex or gender of the thing or person referred to was unknown, but some people don't like that.

Mr Flibble · Dec 6, 2014

In many another sort of post (my protag changes their name , how do I refer to him/her?) he answer is fairly unanimous

How does the POV character think of them? If the POV is them how do they think of themselves?

Use what the POV character would. For some they might stick with the old gender, others might try "ze" and cock it up, the POV may identify with one more than the other (or have issues with how people try to address them)

Keep in your character head*, you should be fine

*barring obvious words

blacbird · Dec 6, 2014

You'd do well to read A Voyage to Arcturus, by David Lindsay, and The Left Hand of Darkness, by Ursula LeGuin. The concept of a third gender situation isn't new.

caw

Bolero · Dec 7, 2014

Bujold went with him/her/it for the genetically engineered hermaphrodite Captain Bel Thorne in the Vorkosigan series. But not a lot - I seem to remember as much as possible the name is used. The instance where the him/her/it tends to pop up is when the gender rather than the personality is being considered. So the character usually slightly leans towards male in appearance and then turns up wearing a floral perfume.

Bujold looks at several other variants over the course of the series and also genetic engineering in general.

Cyia · Dec 7, 2014

Thank you all for your help.

Rep-points, incoming.

Casey Karp · Dec 8, 2014

The Wikipedia link Muppster provided is pretty good, although incomplete. Personally, I prefer xie where relevant in my writing.

Speaking as a reader, I dislike the singular they; I find it very jarring. Would definitely prefer any of the alternatives.

Bottom line, though, choose what works best for the character, as Mr. Flibble so vehemently suggested.

suki · Dec 8, 2014

I've also seen ze used in place of he or she, and I'm starting to see they/them/their as the singular pronoun choice becoming more popular.

I think for you, the important thing is to be true to your character. What would he or they or ze feel and choose?

~suki

Deb Kinnard · Dec 8, 2014

You might also take a look at the recent Hugo winner, Ancillary Justice, by Anne Leckie I believe, who made a point of gender neutral characters. I haven't read it, but heard it discussed and it was a big plus or big minus amongst the readers--nobody was neutral.

Mr Flibble · Dec 8, 2014

Casey Karp said:
as Mr. Flibble so vehemently suggested.

Lawks a lordy, that was me being mild as milk.

Vehement usually involves blood, entrails, goats, the full moon and an invocation to Odin. Meaning, usually I cba.

afarnam · Dec 14, 2014

I'm a bit of a purist with fiction. The rules: Distraction is bad. Realism is good.

That means that I would do whatever a real person with this type of gender identity would do. If they would sometimes use "he" for convenience and sometimes "they" when it fit in the sentence, that's what I'd do in narration. If other characters are making reference to that person, I would have them do it as real people of their type would. And then I would try to make it so the reader doesn't notice or think about this UNLESS it is a big issue in the story. The ideal is that the reader in fiction should never notice the writing. I wish it was mainstream enough to use a pronoun like "ze" and not be distracting, but unfortunately I don't think it is. On the other hand, someone writing a book that is so gripping that you forget about "ze" is all it will take and then we will be able to use "ze" in other books. And what a relief that would be!

Cath · Dec 14, 2014

Please quit with the speculation about whether or not an idea will work and answer the question. A detail such as this could give an insight into character, or be used in a way you don't appreciate without more detail.

This forum is intended to allow people to ask for information without judgment.

Cyia · Dec 14, 2014

I like the idea of ze or xe. I've toyed with using a shortened version of the character's name (Cru) in place of a pronoun, but I'm not sure how it would read.

The POV character generally thinks of Crusoe as male, as the character is going from a more feminine look to a more masculine one, but I don't want it to look like I'm scrubbing off the modifier for convenience or acceptance sake.

Actually, this is near future with the MC and Crusoe coming from a place that's cutting edge, so it could make sense for the MC to use a neutral pronoun while their new friends persist in using the gendered ones. The MC's hometown is already considered a place that makes her "other," so the use of different words can reinforce that.

Again, it's not an issue novel. It's just that there's a scene in the novel where an outsider meets Cru for the first time, and asks if Cru is male or female because Cru is in transition and the asking character can't tell by sight. It's not even a judgmental moment, the one asking is awkward and doesn't have many friends; she's afraid of embarrassing herself in front of someone who seems to like her.

That would be the point the MC tells her that "Crusoe is Crusoe."

Cru's hard to fit into a box.

afarnam · Dec 14, 2014

I think it will probably work as you say. You could experiment with other ways of doing it but if the POV character thinks of him as "he" naturally, that is what will probably feel most real to the reader. I'm sorry if you met with any judgment over asking a question like this. I didn't read all the replies. I'm glad to see a book developing that has a character like this without making a huge issue out of it. Just normalizing it.

Hapax Legomenon · Dec 14, 2014

Cyia said:
I like the idea of ze or xe. I've toyed with using a shortened version of the character's name (Cru) in place of a pronoun, but I'm not sure how it would read.

I would be extremely hesitant to introduce a new pronoun unless you're writing a Left Hand of Darkness situation, or in general a society/community that thinks of gender differently than the one you're in right now. Or at least in a situation where you are going to be using it to refer to more than one character (or maybe the central viewpoint character in third-person limited?). There are like a dozen different created third person singular non-gendered pronouns and nobody's going to be familiar with all of them, so it's going to give your book a learning curve, which may be bad. As someone has said before, it will rouse strong opinions either way.

I know a few non-binary people and they all use gendered pronouns, so using an "easy" pronoun, especially with people this character does not know well, is understandable and realistic. "They/them" is an accepted non-gendered singular pronoun, despite what any grammar pedants may say, so that's a good option too. Heck, have you considered "she"? "He" is often thrown around as the pronoun to use for androgynous characters, so using "she" gets people to think, at least (the nb people I know go with "she"). Anyway if you do go for a gender neutral pronoun, my personal favorite is sie/hir.

Melisande · Dec 18, 2014

Cyia said:
I've got a character with a friend named Crusoe. Crusoe is biologically male, but gender-fluid. There's no big fight about male or female in the novel, but I need to use a pronoun when the character is being discussed or referenced, and I'm wondering if it's okay to refer to Crusoe as "he" for ease of conversation.

Like literally put that in as a line.

"Crusoe is just Crusoe, but he uses "he" to make it easier on everyone else. It's what people assume, and he doesn't correct them."

Or something like that.

Help?

Crusoe is a positive character. It's not an issue story, and there's no bullying involved. The character has an androgynous appearance, and when first seen is in transition from a very long-haried feminine look to one that gradually shifts toward the masculine as Crusoe finds his current comfort zone.

I'd refer to Crusoe as Crusoe at all times. Like you said "Crusoe is Crusoe". Once you start keeping it consistent, you will find it easy. I, for one, wouldn't have any problems reading it. As in, for instance, "Crusoe came along and showed me how to (---). Crusoe saved my life and for that I am eternally grateful."

or

"You ask me about Crusoe. Let me tell you; Without Crusoe I would have..."

TuckerMcCallahan · Dec 22, 2014

Cyia said:
I've got a character with a friend named Crusoe. Crusoe is biologically male, but gender-fluid. There's no big fight about male or female in the novel, but I need to use a pronoun when the character is being discussed or referenced, and I'm wondering if it's okay to refer to Crusoe as "he" for ease of conversation.

Like literally put that in as a line.

"Crusoe is just Crusoe, but he uses "he" to make it easier on everyone else. It's what people assume, and he doesn't correct them."

Or something like that.

Help?

Crusoe is a positive character. It's not an issue story, and there's no bullying involved. The character has an androgynous appearance, and when first seen is in transition from a very long-haried feminine look to one that gradually shifts toward the masculine as Crusoe finds his current comfort zone.

Your question is, "Is it OK to refer to Crusoe as 'he' for ease of conversation?" By which I think you meant, for ease of writing the character's dialogue.

The answer is YES.

A well-written novel where your characters AND your writing are comfortable is better than something experimental you stumble through unnaturally. Ze is a nice idea in theory but 99% of readers are not ready for it. It'll stop them dead, and that's a bad thing.

Write what's comfortable and as several readers have suggested, do more reading of materials with third gender and gender neutral characters so you can grow your style organically.

For Crusoe - Cru - "he" is just fine.

Good luck,
Tux

Captcha · Dec 22, 2014

Deb Kinnard said:
You might also take a look at the recent Hugo winner, Ancillary Justice, by Anne Leckie I believe, who made a point of gender neutral characters. I haven't read it, but heard it discussed and it was a big plus or big minus amongst the readers--nobody was neutral.

I think Ancillary Justice would be a good book to try out, because the solution the author found there really didn't work for me.

I loved the idea of all these gender-neutral characters, but the female pronouns were used, and I just wasn't able to twist my brain around to accept the female pronoun for characters that seemed to be physically male. (It's been a while since I read it so I hope I'm not misrepresenting what was done. I think I'm remembering correctly. I definitely remember it distracting from the story, which was, itself, fairly complicated).

A lot of people loved that book and it's gotten great reviews, so possibly this was just me with the problem. But I would have loved it if the author had used a gender-neutral pronoun (zhe or whatever else) to help me out!

ETA: Now, this was every character in an entire book who got the feminine pronouns. It was much more intense than the few references to a secondary character that you're talking about.

chompers · Dec 22, 2014

Which gender does Crusoe identify with? I would think that would be the one to use. (Sounds like it would be "he.")

gender neutral pronoun

Cyia

Rewriting My Destiny

Muppster

Cyia

Rewriting My Destiny

Ken

Dennis E. Taylor

Get it off! It burns!

benbradley

It's a doggy dog world

King Neptune

Mr Flibble

They've been very bad, Mr Flibble

blacbird

Bolero

Cyia

Rewriting My Destiny

Casey Karp

suki

Opinionated

Deb Kinnard

Mr Flibble

They've been very bad, Mr Flibble

afarnam

Cath

The mean one

Cyia

Rewriting My Destiny

afarnam

Hapax Legomenon

Melisande

TuckerMcCallahan

Insufferable Know-It-All

Captcha

chompers