Gunpowder explosion question

Marian Perera · Dec 21, 2014

Here I am again looking for a way to blow something up.

Situation : my character has a single-shot pistol and a full powder horn. The character needs to cause an explosion a short distance away, now.

Could the character toss the powder horn to the designated explosion spot and shoot it? Would that be enough of a bang to injure or at least disorient anyone standing on or very near the explosion spot?

Thanks in advance for help!

Drachen Jager · Dec 21, 2014

The ball from the gun would be unlikely to set the gunpowder on fire. It has no real heat, and I don't think the kinetic energy alone would detonate the powder. (firing bullets, even tracer bullets, through a can full of gasoline does nothing except spill the gas on the ground and gas is probably easier to ignite than black powder)

Also, gunpowder of that era isn't explosive without containment. It just fizzles. It would make a bright flash, but no explosion. (if the horn was closed it would probably explode, but the act of shooting it would rupture the horn to the point where it wouldn't)

If there was some way to make a fuse and stick it in the narrow mouth of the powder horn, there would probably be enough pressure to make it explode, of course it's also possible it could turn into a sort of rocket, whirling around the room (which might suit your needs).

Trebor1415 · Dec 21, 2014

A powder horn is bone and it's not really strong enough to contain any explosion or make dangerous shrapnel.

If he's military he might have a cast iron grenade he could throw. They did have them.

Or he could use the horn to leave a trail of powder leading to a powder keg (if there are any). He could light the powder trail with the spark from his flintlock and it would run up to the powder keg (assuming he knocked a hole in hit and knocked some powder out) and could blow the keg. Big bang, big distraction, and some chance of injury. He wouldn't be *that* far away when it went off though, but it could buy him a little time.

Or, he could stick a carefully set his powder horn down out of sight and set a lit fuse or a piece of burning cloth in it and leave. It wouldn't be very dangerous, but would be noisy, and would be a distraction.

Marian Perera · Dec 22, 2014

Drachen Jager said:
The ball from the gun would be unlikely to set the gunpowder on fire. It has no real heat, and I don't think the kinetic energy alone would detonate the powder. (firing bullets, even tracer bullets, through a can full of gasoline does nothing except spill the gas on the ground and gas is probably easier to ignite than black powder)

That's what I was worried about.

It's around 1895, but I'm flexible in terms of technology and science because this is a fantasy set in an alternate world. Is there anything that could be added to the gunpowder (or used as a substitute for gunpowder) to cause an explosion?

If there was some way to make a fuse and stick it in the narrow mouth of the powder horn, there would probably be enough pressure to make it explode, of course it's also possible it could turn into a sort of rocket, whirling around the room (which might suit your needs).

No, whirling around the room wouldn't work. It needs to be a single explosion.

Thanks for your feedback!

Marian Perera · Dec 22, 2014

Trebor1415 said:
A powder horn is bone and it's not really strong enough to contain any explosion or make dangerous shrapnel.

The powder horn could be made of whatever material is necessary to cause an explosion - and yeah, if there was shrapnel that would be great.

Or he could use the horn to leave a trail of powder leading to a powder keg (if there are any). He could light the powder trail with the spark from his flintlock and it would run up to the powder keg (assuming he knocked a hole in hit and knocked some powder out) and could blow the keg.

Unfortunately he's in an enemy stronghold at the moment, and the enemies don't have powder kegs. All he brings with him is what he can carry on his belt, and there just isn't time to lay a trail of powder when he sees the guards. I need him to act immediately.

The burning fuse could be an option, but it would take time as well, and the guards would be on him before he could set it up and light the fuse. That's why I was hoping he could cause an explosion with a bullet. I might have to resort to something other than gunpowder, though. Thank you for the suggestions.

Bolero · Dec 22, 2014

Another one to say the amount of powder in a horn isn't that much in terms of an explosion. More of a phut than a bang.

And remember to keep your powder dry - seriously - it goes to black soup very easily with a few raindrops.

Drachen Jager · Dec 22, 2014

Can I just add, that it seems an awfully poor strategy, if your one advantage over your opponents is you have a gun and they don't, to use up all your powder as a distraction.

Marian Perera · Dec 22, 2014

Drachen Jager said:
Can I just add, that it seems an awfully poor strategy, if your one advantage over your opponents is you have a gun and they don't, to use up all your powder as a distraction.

Depends on the exact details of the story. For instance, if my character needs to blow something up, maybe an explosion would be better for that than a single gunshot.

I'd prefer it if we discussed how to cause the explosion, rather than get into the plot details of why my character would choose to cause a distraction instead of shooting his enemies.

Bolero · Dec 23, 2014

I think you are definitely on to something other than gunpowder.

ULTRAGOTHA · Dec 23, 2014

Does it have to be an explosion? Could it be a loud noise over >there<? Is there anything he could throw to make such a noise?

Flour will explode if you've got enough of it hanging about in the air and an ignition source.

King Neptune · Dec 23, 2014

Coal dust or any finely ground flammable material will explode nicely when it is a cloud in the air and there is an ignition source. Then there's the possibility of a fuel-air explosion.

Marian Perera · Dec 23, 2014

Bolero said:
I think you are definitely on to something other than gunpowder.

I was still working on the big action finale yesterday, when I didn't quite have all the details clear. I just knew I needed a huge bang - and for the MC to take everyone back by firing his pistol not at some mook but at something which causes the huge explosion.

Today I finished the scene. Basically, there's this stone altar which is the source of the power that's affecting everyone. Another character manages to split the altar down the middle, but that's not enough. The MC drops the powder horn into the split and fires the pistol in to detonate whatever's in the powder horn. There's no time to light a fuse, and I've already established that in the enemy stronghold, matches and sparks go out as soon as they're struck.

So I was thinking of whatever's in the powder horn being... I don't know, something like nitroglycerin. If I can find a nice old-fashioned alchemical way to phrase that, because while the MC had the chance to prepare before entering the stronghold, I don't want it to seem like he heads down to the corner store to grab some C-4 either.

Marian Perera · Dec 23, 2014

ULTRAGOTHA said:
Does it have to be an explosion? Could it be a loud noise over >there<? Is there anything he could throw to make such a noise?

Sorry, Ultragotha, between the time I asked the question and now, I clarified (in my head, not here) what's going on in the scene. It's definitely not enough to cause a distraction; he needs to blow something up. More details in the post above. Thanks!

Bolero · Dec 24, 2014

I think you want to have two flasks - as in ordinary gunpowder for his pistol and a flask of "super-bang"

.

My understanding of nitroglycerine is shock sensitive - I have a picture in my head of a box of small glass bottles packed in cotton wool. You wouldn't want it in a flask on your hip as you run around. I'm reaching the limits of my knowledge but I think you might still be struggling - it could be that anything you can trigger by firing a lead ball into it will be a bit shock sensitive for carrying. Not sure.

Other thought - check accuracy of muzzle loading pistols - thinking distance to target and size of target,

Marian Perera · Dec 24, 2014

Bolero said:
I think you want to have two flasks - as in ordinary gunpowder for his pistol and a flask of "super-bang" .

That's what I have in mind. Unfortunately, in a struggle to get into the place, the ordinary gunpowder is lost. So the character only gets one shot.

My understanding of nitroglycerine is shock sensitive

Yes, that's why I wanted something like it - more explosive than gunpowder but not so easily detonated.

I'm reaching the limits of my knowledge but I think you might still be struggling - it could be that anything you can trigger by firing a lead ball into it will be a bit shock sensitive for carrying.

Problem is, the story has already established that matches don't stay alight in the enemy stronghold. So I'm not sure how to set the explosive off other than shooting into it.

Technically, I suppose if the powder horn was metal and if the bullet hit it, there could be a spark and if the powder horn was open, the spark might hit the explosive before the stronghold's magic could extinguish it. But that seems a bit convoluted and not like something the character should be pinning his hopes on, which is why I hoped he could detonate the explosive by firing at it.

I'm wondering if, along with a gun, I should give him a hand mortar as well...

Other thought - check accuracy of muzzle loading pistols - thinking distance to target and size of target,

I don't think distance will be a problem because the altar is right there - as in, the character is shooting from a distance of a few feet away.

King Neptune · Dec 24, 2014

There are explosives that are rather sensitive to shock that are used for primers. The only one I can think of is ammonium tri-iodine, which when dry will make a cute little explosion when someone walks on a film of it on a floor. Someone else probably can think of other simple primers that might work.

Mark HJ · Dec 24, 2014

Nitroglycerin - a big no-no unless your MC is suicidal. The big historical advance with nitro was the invention of dynamite, which made the stuff (relatively) safe, but then needed a fuse to detonate.

You are going to have the same sort of problem with pretty much any shock-sensitive explosive - if it is unstable enough to be reliably detonated by your pistol shot, the odds of it going off in your MC's pocket are high.

As King Neptune says, what you are looking for are the sort of compounds used as primers, but it strikes me that this is going to be a problem with your scenario. The thing with modern primers is they are designed to be (relatively) difficult to detonate, purely as a safety feature. The older materials such as mercury fulminate are more sensitive but get you back to the problems of it going off in your pocket. Worse still (according to my ageing memory) carrying the stuff in sufficient quantity to get a good-sized bang increases your chances of individual crystals of explosive grinding together and going off.

Ammonium tri-iodine is easy to make, but way too sensitive. Even light pressure will detonate it, so not only would your MC's pocket explode, but he would be surrounded by a cloud of purple iodine vapour. Good distraction, but not so good for his health.

I am sure there must be a suitable explosive, but it strikes me as getting pretty esoteric.

Marian Perera · Dec 24, 2014

Mark HJ said:
You are going to have the same sort of problem with pretty much any shock-sensitive explosive - if it is unstable enough to be reliably detonated by your pistol shot, the odds of it going off in your MC's pocket are high.

Maybe the hand mortar would work better?

I originally wrote the character carrying both that and a pistol, but then decided he was way overpowered and took out the hand mortar. Since the hand mortar fires grenades, could that be enough to cause the detonation?

I just want a big boom at the end...

ETA : Actually, the hand mortar won't work because the fuse of the grenade needs to be lit first. So I'm back to that problem.

At this point I'm wondering whether to simply not specify what the explosive is. This is a fantasy, so maybe it can be plausible even if I make up some explosive compound that's detonated by having a bullet fired into it. It's either that or use King Neptune's idea of a shock-sensitive primer. Or heck, maybe even have the bullet coated with some chemical that reacts with the explosive to cause the boom.

T Robinson · Dec 24, 2014

If it is a fantasy world, with a little buildup, you could establish that the altar was made of a certain material that reacted violently to gunpowder or "x" that acted as a catalyst in a chemical or magical manner. That avoids your entire problem, as long as the buildup/plausibility is addressed.

Marian Perera · Dec 24, 2014

T Robinson said:
If it is a fantasy world, with a little buildup, you could establish that the altar was made of a certain material that reacted violently to gunpowder or "x" that acted as a catalyst in a chemical or magical manner. That avoids your entire problem, as long as the buildup/plausibility is addressed.

Unfortunately the altar is a giant ruby. It's got certain magic properties that allow it to be used as a power source, but I don't think a ruby itself will react violently.

Maybe I'll go with there being some chemical on the bullet that detonates the explosive when the two come into contact. That way, the MC could go into the stronghold knowing he's got a bomb which could be set off from a distance without the need to strike a match. But at the same time, he wouldn't be overpowered - especially after he loses the gunpowder horn and only has the other one.

badwolf.usmc · Dec 24, 2014

Marian Perera said:
It's around 1895, but I'm flexible in terms of technology and science because this is a fantasy set in an alternate world. Is there anything that could be added to the gunpowder (or used as a substitute for gunpowder) to cause an explosion?

In 1895, dynamite was the most common type of explosive in use. In its most basic form, dynamite is nitroglycerin mixed with earth to make it stable and "safe" to use. Dynamite requires a blasting cap to detonate.

However, early dynamite tended to "bleed" nitroglycerin, making the dynamite unsafe for use. A shot from a pistol could easily set it off.

Bolero · Dec 24, 2014

This is a fun thread.

Coming back in with a few points/queries.

Unless the pistol is rifled, what you have is a round lead ball, not a bullet. Specific technical terms - if your character is expert in what he is doing he'd know that.

You could have the ball coated with a chemical - but that would need to survive being fired out the barrel - with all the hot gases and flame from the gunpowder.

Is your gunpowder pistol a flintlock? If you can't have matches burn, then it can't be a matchlock.

Bolero · Dec 24, 2014

badwolf.usmc said:
However, early dynamite tended to "bleed" nitroglycerin, making the dynamite unsafe for use. A shot from a pistol could easily set it off.

How safe would that be to carry around?

snafu1056 · Dec 24, 2014

Mark HJ said:
Ammonium tri-iodine is easy to make, but way too sensitive. Even light pressure will detonate it, so not only would your MC's pocket explode, but he would be surrounded by a cloud of purple iodine vapour. Good distraction, but not so good for his health.

Hilariously incompetent way to die though.

Marian Perera · Dec 24, 2014

badwolf.usmc said:
In 1895, dynamite was the most common type of explosive in use. In its most basic form, dynamite is nitroglycerin mixed with earth to make it stable and "safe" to use. Dynamite requires a blasting cap to detonate.

However, early dynamite tended to "bleed" nitroglycerin, making the dynamite unsafe for use. A shot from a pistol could easily set it off.

That could work. Yes, it would be dangerous to carry around, but I wonder if I'm overestimating the need to be accurate and realistic.

I mean, the heroine uses a giant dragonfly as an aerial taxi. But I'm not spending time in here puzzling over the physics and biology of an insect big enough to carry her and the cabdriver. Maybe the explosive just needs to read convincingly, rather than be scientific enough for Mythbusters.

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