Strong Female Characters

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Chasing the Horizon

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No.

The test has nothing to do with romance.

But it's a great indicator on what society thinks important. Men are considered more important in our white, straight, western society, so all the movies reflect that. Mo, a character in Bechdel's comic strip, wanted more than that.
Okay. So I still don't get it, then. Maybe because none of my stories take place in western society.

I would just count that as "talking about work" rather than talking about a man.
Yeah, that's how I count it too.

I mean, two women talking about baking a cake passes this so-called test, but my warriors talking about an assassination fails it because their victim is the wrong gender? Something's not right here.

ETA: Holy shit, I didn't realize this thread had grown by two pages while I was eating dinner. So, my responses are probably a little behind the conversation, lol.
 

kuwisdelu

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But a whole buncha' folks made out here as though that was some kinda burden. Again, folks, they dinna say, och, that was impossible. But they implied that well enough. You, as well, lassie.

If that's too hard. Well, I will be dead eight years or so.

You're exaggerating. I don't recall anything saying it was a big burden, just that it was a great heuristic, but not a good test.

I don't suppose you could share your thoughts on my own question?

Well, as I pointed out before, if it's first person and the narrator is a male, then any conversation between two women will necessarily include a man as well, unless it's eavesdropping. I wondered aloud whether that disqualified such a conversation or not.
 

kaitie

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Dudette, as it happens

But yeah. It's so damned easy to get around, it's almost meaningless. Shouldn't we concentrate on what the women actually do. Who they are?

Like I have said, repeatedly, the test is a great starting point, something to make you think. But it has no bearing on the actual portrayal of women.

This thread has probably moved on from here (don't know how much I have left), but I had to throw in my two cents to say I completely agree with this post.
 

kaitie

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Romantic comedies never help. It's always about finding love to complete your life. Superhero stories have the "nag" who bitches because Spiderman is late for dinner and she's sitting at that table alone and the meatloaf is cold. She stomps her feet and says, "I can't do this anymore."
Then, the bad guy swoops in, kidnaps her, and she's no longer the nag, she's the damsel in distress. And of COURSE, because he saves her, she "gets it" now. He's a superhero.

It's stupid. So much of it is stupid.

Wanna read my superhero story? I do have a character sort of like this. She's never the damsel in distress, though. And she leaves him before the end of the book because she can't deal with the stress of not knowing if he's going to live or die. And she never comes back (not even in the sequels), he stays single.

I'm a fan of taking stereotypes and tweaking them into what strikes me as a more realistic portrayal.
 

kaitie

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No one said outright, "Can't deal with females talking amongst themselves."

But a whole buncha' folks made out here as though that was some kinda burden. Again, folks, they dinna say, och, that was impossible. But they implied that well enough. You, as well, lassie.

If that's too hard. Well, I will be dead eight years or so.

Good luck to you.

I've read this whole thing and honestly I didn't see this anywhere. What I've seen is two points: One, that the test can miss good portrayals of women, and that it can pass bad portrayals, and thus is a great starting point but shouldn't be viewed as a great judge, and two, that we should focus on making a well-developed character.

A well-developed character (or multiple well-developed characters) aren't going to need anyone to go out of the way to make them have conversations together where it doesn't fit. My book I mentioned above didn't have two women talking, but that was because it didn't make any sense for it to happen. The female characters never had reason to have a discussion. To try to put one in would have been awkward. I don't think that detracts at all from the development.

Is it sad that a lot of media examples treat women as nothing but sex objects or that they're biased towards men, but what all of us have been talking about is ways to improve the situation.
 

Mr Flibble

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I am just fucking going to kill myself. Because? Who the fuck cares who wimmen think. We're a trope. A joke. Only men count.


Seriously, what is giving you that idea in this thread that is discussing how women can be strong, with multiple examples?

Really?

I'm not saying it isn't a problem

I'm saying I've seen much more pro women characters here than not

So maybe not kill yourself just yet?

PS as a person of the female persuasion, I care what women think. But them, I care what PEOPLE think too. And I prefer one great female character over three that are stupid and misogynistic ones. We shall agree to differ perhaps?

What gave you that idea?

My clip around your ear? :D
 

Chasing the Horizon

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Don't worry, most of those two pages were just wimmintalk. Nothing important.
Well, that's a relief. :tongue

It's funny, because I'm a feminist and write very feminist books, but don't feel like I have much to add to this discussion. Most media is very sexist, and it requires awareness to recognize all the sexism and make sure none of it ends up in your own work (warning: this will end up with you seeing sexism everywhere and being pissed off a lot). And this stupid Bechdel test doesn't help at all, IMO.
 

ArachnePhobia

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No one said outright, "Can't deal with females talking amongst themselves."

But a whole buncha' folks made out here as though that was some kinda burden. Again, folks, they dinna say, och, that was impossible. But they implied that well enough. You, as well, lassie.

If that's too hard. Well, I will be dead eight years or so.

Good luck to you.

Okay, I left, I calmed down, and I am no longer frothing in rage.

I tried to explain why I agreed with Mr. Flibble and asked clarification on whether or not one-shot characters counted towards a "Bechdel Mark."

You vaguely dismissed me, accused me of saying and insinuating stuff I didn't, and called me "lassie."

I am done with this thread. I'm interested in the subject, but this is more grief than I need on the Interwebz.

Good luck to you, too.
 

Bookewyrme

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Huh. Interesting subject, and I would definitely be interested in seeing the TedTalk that spawned it. But it seems everyone's gotten off into micro-analyzing the Bechdel Test? Which seems...silly? First, every post seems to be trying to make it too narrow.

It's not that the female characters can NEVER talk about men, it's a problem if they ONLY talk about other men. So one damn scene isn't going to make your book fail. (I.e. Are the female characters well-rounded in their own right, and not simply props for the male characters?)
People talking about how they're women and never talk to other women...that's crap. Do you never have a waitress? Do you just grunt and point at the menu? The point of that question is...women are EVERYWHERE, so it seems odd if a token female never encounters another female even casually, and odd if she never even knows the name of another female in the story. (The obvious exception, if your book is taking place exclusively in a Monastery or something).

Anyway, I've never thought the Bechdel Test was anything more than a starting point to thinking about your character choices OR a way to look at larger trends in media. (Both are valuable uses for it, IMO)

And now I'm going to quit procrastinating and duck back out before the thread really dissolves into flames. >_>
 

lolchemist

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Hi I'm late but I just wanted to say that I HATE when authors equate 'strong female' with 'butt-kicking.' I think we live in an age now where physical violence is NOT CUTE not even when it comes in the form of a tiny-girly-woman kicking a stronger looking man's ass. I'd much rather authors focus on inner strength instead of taking the 'strong woman' phrase so literally.

Another thing I hate is when our 'strong female' is THE ONLY GIRL IN THE WORLD LIKE THIS AND SO MUCH DIFFERENT FROM ALL THOSE OTHER INFERIOR FEMALES WHO CARE ABOUT DRESSES AND PINK THINGS AND SHOES.

Haha, sorry I can rant about this for days!!
 

Chasing the Horizon

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Huh. Interesting subject, and I would definitely be interested in seeing the TedTalk that spawned it. But it seems everyone's gotten off into micro-analyzing the Bechdel Test? Which seems...silly?
That's because the word 'test' implies that we 'pass' or 'fail', so people naturally get defensive and begin arguing about the details to prove they 'passed'. It's human nature.
 

LeslieB

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I am female, and cannot imagine any circumstance in which the Bechdel test would cross my mind while I am writing. Make of that what you will.

In fact, the whole 'strong female' issue would not cross my mind. Most of the time when I encounter it while reading, I either find a "man with boobs" character, or a woman with a neon sign over her head flashing, "I am here to make a feminist statement." Both are equally uninteresting. What I am concerned with when I am writing is making *characters*. I want them to feel like they had a life before they appeared on the page, and a life after the book is over, assuming of course that I don't kill them off. I want them to feel like real people, neither commentary on sociology or stereotype.
 

AKyber36

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Hi I'm late but I just wanted to say that I HATE when authors equate 'strong female' with 'butt-kicking.' I think we live in an age now where physical violence is NOT CUTE not even when it comes in the form of a tiny-girly-woman kicking a stronger looking man's ass. I'd much rather authors focus on inner strength instead of taking the 'strong woman' phrase so literally.

Another thing I hate is when our 'strong female' is THE ONLY GIRL IN THE WORLD LIKE THIS AND SO MUCH DIFFERENT FROM ALL THOSE OTHER INFERIOR FEMALES WHO CARE ABOUT DRESSES AND PINK THINGS AND SHOES.

Haha, sorry I can rant about this for days!!

It's what in my opinion makes Fantine from Les Miserables a really strong female character. Life throws all kinds of crap at her, society rejects her, and she is eventually forced to become a prostitute. She does it all for her only daughter, however, and still has the strength to go on because of that. Her inner strength is formidable even in the face of all that is unfair and unjust. And before she was forced to go down the rungs of degradation, she was very much a woman who knew she was beautiful. She liked combing her beautiful hair, and in her youth, wore some really gorgeous clothing.

In terms of the Bechdel Test, some of my stories would flunk it right from the start (male-oriented mafia/mob from a male P.O.V., like in my current WIP) but it succeeds in others (I only have one female MC at the moment in an as-of-yet unwritten story, but she's strong due to street smarts, a vested interest in obtaining her goal - which isn't a man but revolution, teamwork capabilities, and being able to continue and slog on when the going gets tough (the guy who raised her was a previous revolutionary/rebel from whom she learned a lot)). When most of my MCs start developing, the voices usually are male. A big part of this probably goes back to me preferring the company of males since age 7-9 till now.

Although one of my favorite dystopian novels definitely passes the Bechdel Test: The Handmaid's Tale. Offred is a very strong woman despite being oppressed by the other women enforcing the system, the rules established by the fundamentalist theocracy, and the constant threat of detection and elimination. When she does talk to other Handmaids, it's not just about the men they serve, but also about other stuff.
 

thebloodfiend

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http://www.feministfrequency.com/2012/02/the-2012-oscars-and-the-bechdel-test/

Reading this thread, I feel like two sets of people are talking right past each other. It's just a simple test. It has nothing to do with whether or not your story is feminist. It's simply very, very telling when you have a million movies where women never, ever talk to each other—and if they do, it's about a guy. Women are, last time I checked, more than 50% of the population in most places.

How many movies or books have you watched/read recently in which two guys talk to each other about something other than girls? It's simply there to illuminate the troubling issue of women being seen as second rate citizens in the media. It is not meant to make you feel all bad and defensive and hurt and non-feminist.

Dammit, I've been watching Anita's videos and Nostalgia Chick all day and I'm just really, really mad at the media right now.
 

Atalanta

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I'll just pop in here and say:

* I love the Bechdel Test and recommend that anyone who still doesn't get it read its (surprisingly coherent) Wikipedia page.

* I think a strong female character is one who learns from her experiences while remaining true to her convictions.

* I haven't found many books with strong female characters -- so I write them.

Carry on.
 

Chasing the Horizon

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Most of the time when I encounter it while reading, I either find a "man with boobs" character, or a woman with a neon sign over her head flashing, "I am here to make a feminist statement." Both are equally uninteresting.
"Man with boobs"? Really? Just because a woman doesn't have any of the traits you associate with femininity doesn't make her less a woman or less worthy of having her story told.

"Man with boobs" is just another prejudicial term meant to keep women in the roles where our society thinks they belong.
 

Polenth

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In fact, the whole 'strong female' issue would not cross my mind. Most of the time when I encounter it while reading, I either find a "man with boobs" character, or a woman with a neon sign over her head flashing, "I am here to make a feminist statement." Both are equally uninteresting. What I am concerned with when I am writing is making *characters*. I want them to feel like they had a life before they appeared on the page, and a life after the book is over, assuming of course that I don't kill them off. I want them to feel like real people, neither commentary on sociology or stereotype.

You certainly don't have to write about non-feminine women if you don't want to, but the whole "men with boobs" thing is stomping on your fellow forum members who fit that gender/sex presentation mix. It's saying they don't exist, outside of social commentary or stereotypes. There's no need for that.
 

Isobel Lindley

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"Man with boobs"? Really? Just because a woman doesn't have any of the traits you associate with femininity doesn't make her less a woman or less worthy of having her story told.

"Man with boobs" is just another prejudicial term meant to keep women in the roles where our society thinks they belong.
QFT. I find this expression really quite offensive. What exactly does a female character have to have in order to qualify as a "real woman" instead of a man with boobs? Just curious.

Another tangent - I am currently reading a book by a male author who really, really seems to think he's writing a strong female character (she hs superpowers), but she is constantly at threat of rape and her beauty is constantly reinforced and her automatic way to get out of trouble is to make up to the nearest man and oh, so tired of this. And it's a kids' book. Great message to send to both boys and girls, I don't think.

As for the Bechdel Test, it's not perfect. It's something designed to help you see patterns, not to actually judge whether a specific text is good or not. Misogynist books can pass, because a conversation about what an ugly fat cow two women's boss is presumably passes. But this particular book is a perfect example of what it *can*, as a tool, point out. Even the little girls in the book only ever discuss boys when alone together, while the scenes with boys together discuss a far wider range of subjects, and that's worth noting, because the implication is that female lives need to revolve around men in a way that male lives presumably do not.
 

kaitie

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But she has a point, too, wording aside. A couple of us even mentioned it back a few pages. There are characters who are designed to be strong women, but rather than being fleshed out and given depth, they are women who are basically men under a new name. That doesn't do much to help create a well-rounded female, and doesn't it say more that to be "strong" she has to act like a man? That's part of what I'm pushing back on from the beginning.

It's fine to be a woman who doesn't fit into traditional gender roles, but my point from the start of this was that being a strong woman goes deeper than behaving like a man or a woman. There is no doubt in my mind that certain characters are considered strong because of how they fit themselves into the boy's club. Isn't that, in a way, a negative?

It's ironic, because your reaction is the complete opposite of mine. You see it as trying to force women into typical roles by saying that they can't be masculine. I see it characters like this as implying that masculine traits are more valued over feminine.
 

kuwisdelu

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There is a difference between taking umbrage at a book that implies a woman must take on culturally-masculine gender roles in order to be valued, and saying a woman who chooses to take on culturally-masculine gender roles is a "man with boobs."
 
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