Hells Angels - can they be mentioned?

Ravioli · Feb 25, 2015

I just got finished with my story and am now starting to edit it. A bit wary of the 81's reputation, I'm not so sure I should leave a certain thing unchanged.

I invented a resistance group within a ghetto similar to the Gaza Strip, only worse, in a dystopian Israel. They are mostly young men plotting the great escape, and helping out their fellow ghetto dwellers with gestures ranging from guarding them during curfew, over running over vicious military dogs, to trying to detonate the ghetto walls.
They call themselves the Hell's Angels because the ghetto is Hell, and they want to free/deliver its inhabitants, like angels. They are also militant and reckless, but only riding dirtbikes at best. Most of them are idealistic kids.
And in the epilogue I want to have them nominated honorary members by the real 81. I wonder if that's a good idea. Or if any inclusion or implication of the Club is.

Am I being paranoid or should I change the name and the outcome?

King Neptune · Feb 25, 2015

NaeimGiladisLegacy said:
I just got finished with my story and am now starting to edit it. A bit wary of the 81's reputation, I'm not so sure I should leave a certain thing unchanged.

I invented a resistance group within a ghetto similar to the Gaza Strip, only worse, in a dystopian Israel. They are mostly young men plotting the great escape, and helping out their fellow ghetto dwellers with gestures ranging from guarding them during curfew, over running over vicious military dogs, to trying to detonate the ghetto walls.
They call themselves the Hell's Angels because the ghetto is Hell, and they want to free/deliver its inhabitants, like angels. They are also militant and reckless, but only riding dirtbikes at best. Most of them are idealistic kids.
And in the epilogue I want to have them nominated honorary members by the real 81. I wonder if that's a good idea. Or if any inclusion or implication of the Club is.

Am I being paranoid or should I change the name and the outcome?

Why don't you ask them? There is a link to a contat page.
http://affa.hells-angels.com/

slhuang · Feb 25, 2015

I had a reference to the Hell's Angels in my original draft, and then did some reading and found they vigorously defend their trademark. It seemed best to cut the reference, so I did.

Separately and in parallel to this, I ended up rewriting the motorcycle gang I portrayed in the book after meeting and working with a bunch of real-life Hell's Angels. I talk about why in a guest post on Chuck Wendig's site here. The long and the short of it is: Please don't rely on popular assumptions of what the Hell's Angels are like. (I don't know if you are or not, to be clear, but I'm mentioning just in case.)

PeteMC · Feb 27, 2015

I wouldn't - the Angels once sued Disney of all people for trademark infringement, amongst others:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hells_Angels#Intellectual_property_rights

King Neptune · Feb 27, 2015

There's a huge difference between mentioning Hells Angels and inserting a logo. If you try putting the winged skull on the cover, then you can expect to be sued, but mentioning people wearing their colors is not a cause for action.

slhuang · Feb 27, 2015

King Neptune said:
There's a huge difference between mentioning Hells Angels and inserting a logo. If you try putting the winged skull on the cover, then you can expect to be sued, but mentioning people wearing their colors is not a cause for action.

It may not be a legitimate cause, but even a suit that ends up getting dismissed can cause major headaches. Not that I'm saying the HA would bring an illegitimate suit, just saying that personally this is why I always try to err on the side of caution when it comes to a vigorously-defended trademark.

eta: IANAL, this is not legal advice, etc.

King Neptune · Feb 27, 2015

slhuang said:
It may not be a legitimate cause, but even a suit that ends up getting dismissed can cause major headaches. Not that I'm saying the HA would bring an illegitimate suit, just saying that personally this is why I always try to err on the side of caution when it comes to a vigorously-defended trademark.

eta: IANAL, this is not legal advice, etc.

I don't think they would even consider suing over a mention of Hells Angels in a work of fiction. There is a huge difference between using a trademark without permission and mentioning something. It is completely permissible to mention Mickey Mouse, but if you make a picture of Mickey you can expect Disney to sue.

slhuang · Feb 27, 2015

King Neptune said:
I don't think they would even consider suing over a mention of Hells Angels in a work of fiction. There is a huge difference between using a trademark without permission and mentioning something. It is completely permissible to mention Mickey Mouse, but if you make a picture of Mickey you can expect Disney to sue.

But aren't there cases of people suing over the trademarked group/product being portrayed in what they perceive as a damaging manner?

(Again, IANAL, this is a sincere question.)

PeteMC · Feb 27, 2015

slhuang said:
But aren't there cases of people suing over the trademarked group/product being portrayed in what they perceive as a damaging manner?

(Again, IANAL, this is a sincere question.)

IANAL either but yes, I think so. Not saying that would happen in this specific case, just that I know the HA are very protective of their trademarks and identity (and rightly so IMO).

PorterStarrByrd · Feb 27, 2015

As a writer, you are creative. I'd think you can some up with something different to name the group. You shouldn't have to rely on bringing up an image by using the name of a group that reminds you of yours. There probably are some legal issues involved in you naming your group Hell's Angels, though you could compare it to them if you needed to.

PeteMC · Feb 27, 2015

Exactly - this is pretty much the whole premise of Sons of Anarchy - Angels by any other name

King Neptune · Feb 27, 2015

slhuang said:
But aren't there cases of people suing over the trademarked group/product being portrayed in what they perceive as a damaging manner?

(Again, IANAL, this is a sincere question.)

Sure they can file suit, but mentioning an organization in a work of fiction is protected, whether it's the Republican Party, Hells Angels, International Business Machines Corporation, or the Roman Catholic Church. If you write something that is false and defamatory, then they would have a cause for action, but that's a different matter.

Ravioli · Feb 27, 2015

Thanks everyone for the input!

Well, I definitely don't mean to portray them poorly, on the contrary the reference is supposed to be flattering, but you never know. Actually, I may have watched too much TV, but I was less worried about legal action

I just wrote them to ask them directly as King Neptune so wisely suggested.

Tazlima · Feb 27, 2015

NaeimGiladisLegacy said:
Thanks everyone for the input!

Well, I definitely don't mean to portray them poorly, on the contrary the reference is supposed to be flattering, but you never know. Actually, I may have watched too much TV, but I was less worried about legal action

I just wrote them to ask them directly as King Neptune so wisely suggested.

My mother used to work with a former Hell's Angel (retired from the group with honors). He was a huge dude with a long beard and full-sleeve tattoos down both arms. Basically he looked like he would chew you up and spit you out, but he was actually super-nice.

Ravioli · Feb 27, 2015

Tazlima said:
My mother used to work with a former Hell's Angel (retired from the group with honors). He was a huge dude with a long beard and full-sleeve tattoos down both arms. Basically he looked like he would chew you up and spit you out, but he was actually super-nice.

When I was around 8, 9 years old that was exactly what I wanted to marry

Mr Flibble · Feb 27, 2015

Tazlima said:
he was actually super-nice.

Most of them are. Individually (and provided you don't fall foul of their particular honour, but that;s pretty easy -- don't be a dick.)

Ofc there's always one...but I've never had a problem with them and I've been to a couple of dozen Angels rallies. In fact they were incredibly helpful when a fire started at one, and helped everyone get medical attention etc (Not always in a conventional manner mind, but that's a whole 'nother story)

Also they make some pretty wicked wine.

PeteMC · Feb 28, 2015

NaeimGiladisLegacy said:
I just wrote them to ask them directly as King Neptune so wisely suggested.

I'd be really interested to hear what they say, please come back and let us know!

Deb Kinnard · Feb 28, 2015

Since this is set in the middle east, why not "cheat" and call your group Hell's Seraphim or something similar? I doubt even the most aggressive lawyer could get you for that.

James simpson · Feb 28, 2015

If you are that concerned about it you could always change the name slightly, for example from Hells Angles to Gods Demons. (Or something with more than two seconds thought put into it.)

King Neptune · Feb 28, 2015

Or you could use the Devil's Disciples, as something distinct from the "outlaw type club".
http://www.devilsdiciples.org/

Tazlima · Feb 28, 2015

NaeimGiladisLegacy said:
When I was around 8, 9 years old that was exactly what I wanted to marry

One of my favorite parts of my years working at a vet was getting to see the soft side of tough guys on a regular basis. There are few things quite as adorable as a giant tough-as-nails dude cooing over a tiny little puppy or dropper-feeding a kitten.

Getting back to the main topic. People are people, and despite what the media would have us believe, the majority of people are pretty awesome if (as Mr. Flibble so succinctly put it) you aren't a dick.

Ravioli · Mar 1, 2015

So that was a NOPE.

PeteMC · Mar 2, 2015

Yeah I thought it might be - good job you asked then!

Luvspaghetti · Mar 3, 2015

You know asking the president doesn't mean all the chapters will agree. In jail I found out that having the blessing of one didn't keep the others from reacting.

I'd write your story with their name in it and take it on the chin. You may get threatened either way. You have to decide how you want to live.

Ravioli · Mar 3, 2015

Nah, no matter what they could or would do about it, I don't wanna disrespect them.

Hells Angels - can they be mentioned?

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