The Firearms Thread (Questions and Discussions)

Rowan · Nov 7, 2010

Linda Adams said:
First queston: We have a gate with a couple of uniformed guards--highly trained and expecting trouble. What kind of guns would they have that would signal they're expecting trouble and want to be prepared?

Second question: There's a patrol boat guarding the shoreline. Patrol boat stops a fishing trawler that's gotten too near the shore. What kind of guns would the security patrol have?

In this case, the gate goes to a house owned by a member of the Royal Family. No one knows he's a member of the Royal Family, so the security is an oddity. A spy is trying to figure out who lives in the house. He sees first the patrol boat guards, and then the guard shack and is thinking, "Who is this person? These guards have a lot of firepower."

Question one: I would think both handguns and automatic rifles, maybe an AR15? I'll let the rifle guys/girls elaborate on that because like you, my experience is with military (USMC and M16). I've shot the AR15 though (father has one) and it's a nice weapon. Looks intimidating too.

As for handgun, of course I'll go with a Sig Sauer P-220.
AR15:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e0/AR15_A3_Tactical_Carbine_pic1.jpg
http://www.tactical-life.com/online/special-weapons/ar-15-perfection/
http://www.ar15.com/

Question two: My thinking is the same for these guys, and maybe an RPG or something crazy! LOL I'm not a boat person though so Summonere/BDurkin (and others) can best respond.

OneWriter · Nov 7, 2010

Confused

From eHow:

1--Inspect the handgun for any barrel obstructions, dirt and debris before firing. Load the magazine with the proper ammunition for the make and model of your semi-automatic handgun. Insert the magazine.

2--Point the handgun downrange. Keep your finger off the trigger and away from the trigger guard. If applicable, release the safety.

3--Grasp the slide and draw it rearward (toward you). Release after the slide has been drawn back fully. A round has now been released into the chamber and the gun is cocked and ready to fire.

4--Grip the handgun with two hands. Extend your arms fully in front of you. Line up the gunsight on your target. Place your finger on the trigger and gently squeeze to fire the gun.

Please re-edit the above as needed. In particular: if I have my cop in a highly tense situation, how do I describe his aiming the gun and firing? I was using the phrase "gun cocked" a lot and now I'm re-editing...

Thanks!

Rowan · Nov 7, 2010

OneWriter said:
From eHow:

1--Inspect the handgun for any barrel obstructions, dirt and debris before firing. Load the magazine with the proper ammunition for the make and model of your semi-automatic handgun. Insert the magazine. Don't need all the checking / clearing in street sitch. Of course a cop will have correct ammo and mag inserted.

2--Point the handgun downrange. Keep your finger off the trigger and away from the trigger guard. If applicable, release the safety. If Kimber or model with safety, cop would release safety WHILE drawing (simultaneous). Glocks don't have safety so you're good. Finger would go along trigger guard so if needed, easy access to trigger. If you're in a shit hitting fan sitch, finger would likely be on trigger. That's why I like Sig DA/SA models. You can sneeze and fire off a Glock round!

3--Grasp the slide and draw it rearward (toward you). Release after the slide has been drawn back fully. A round has now been released into the chamber and the gun is cocked and ready to fire. Round should already be chambered! By the time some people have done this--bad guy has let off at least a few rounds...

4--Grip the handgun with two hands. Extend your arms fully in front of you. Line up the gunsight on your target. Place your finger on the trigger and gently squeeze to fire the gun. At this point, the bad guy has probably killed you... Your MC is a cop so this is all instinct--draw, aim, fire. He's well trained and this is second nature.

Please re-edit the above as needed. In particular: if I have my cop in a highly tense situation, how do I describe his aiming the gun and firing? I was using the phrase "gun cocked" a lot and now I'm re-editing...

Thanks!

Your cop carries a Glock, correct? What's the scenario? Is he drawing from the holster? The above sounds like it pertains to "range shooting"... In a highly tense situation, you don't have time to go through all of this. You draw, aim and fire. One, two, three. Plus, speaking as a former fed, I carried loaded, round in the chamber and mag topped off (Sig P-220). So, if the shit hit the fan, I'd draw (from tactical or whatever holster) and be ready for action. I can't think of a situation where a LEO would have to chamber a round, especially a state/local cop (patrol, homicide, etc.). But I may be wrong!

ETA: Prior to going on raids (warrants), everyone would stand around and check the chamber to ensure a round was chambered (and top off if needed). It really is second nature. A split second can mean life or death.

Hope that helps!

OneWriter · Nov 7, 2010

Great, thanks!!! :e2flowers

(figured flowers would fit nicely in a firearm thread... *coughs*)

ETA: BTW, I haven't seen the Beretta mentioned in this thread... is that a bad one?

Rowan · Nov 7, 2010

OneWriter said:
Great, thanks!!!
(figured flowers would fit nicely in a firearm thread... *coughs*)

ETA: BTW, I haven't seen the Beretta mentioned in this thread... is that a bad one?

I'm sure others will weigh in too!

Beretta -- not one I'm very familiar with. Have shot it but can't even remember what model!

It's not that any are "good" or "bad"--it's all about personal preference.

Ol' Fashioned Girl · Nov 7, 2010

Another point about the 'instinct' being invoked above... people who depend upon their firearms for life and death, practice... practice... practice... and practice some more. You'll hear the term 'muscle memory' used, too. It's the concept that kicks in when the adrenaline is flowing and the brain is sending signals to muscles that have practiced... practiced... practiced... and those muscles do what they're supposed to do (chamber a round, thumb off the safety, take aim (keeping the tender parts of your thumb and the soft tissue between it and your index finger out of the way of the recoiling slide), fire and repeat without conscious thought - all the while your head's thinkin' 'Oh, shit! Oh, shit! Oh! Shit!'.

Rowan · Nov 7, 2010

Ol' Fashioned Girl said:
Another point about the 'instinct' being invoked above... people who depend upon their firearms for life and death, practice... practice... practice... and practice some more. You'll hear the term 'muscle memory' used, too. It's the concept that kicks in when the adrenaline is flowing and the brain is sending signals to muscles that have practiced... practiced... practiced... and those muscles do what they're supposed to do (chamber a round, thumb off the safety, take aim (keeping the tender parts of your thumb and the soft tissue between it and your index finger out of the way of the recoiling slide), fire and repeat without conscious thought - all the while your head's thinkin' 'Oh, shit! Oh, shit! Oh! Shit!'.

Exactly. This includes dry firing too! And I can't tell you how many hours I practice every time I get a new holster.

Ol' Fashioned Girl · Nov 7, 2010

I haven't graduated to any type of holster yet. Ol' Boy has a wallet holster for his Ruger LCP .380 - really great for keeping the outline of the gun from 'imprinting', which isn't legal here in Okiehomey - but he can still pull and fire it without removing it from the wallet.

I carry mine in a specially made leather shoulder bag with a side opening to receive the Bersa. Before I got my license, I used to worry about 'forgetting it' or someone getting hold of it - as in stealing my purse and getting a bonus free gun out of the deal. It's amazing how 'awake and aware' having that gun in my bag has made me. Not only am I much more cognizant of my surroundings, but I am NEVER forgetful of that very deadly weapon in my possession and what it would mean to forget it or lose it.

Drachen Jager · Nov 7, 2010

Rowan said:
It's not that any are "good" or "bad"--it's all about personal preference.

That's not true.

There ARE bad firearms manufacturers, there are mediocre ones and there are good ones. However, there are a LOT of good ones to choose from, any of: Walther, Glock, FN, Colt, Smith & Wesson, H&K, Steyr, Beretta, Sig-Sauer and probably a half dozen more I'm missing are quality manufacturers. Any of the above will serve well, and as you said it's personal preference (I forget exactly how DeNiro says it in Ronin, but it's something like "It's a toolbox, I use what's appropriate for the job.")

A good place to start when you're looking up firearms is: http://world.guns.ru/

Rowan · Nov 7, 2010

Drachen Jager said:
That's not true.

There ARE bad firearms manufacturers, there are mediocre ones and there are good ones. However, there are a LOT of good ones to choose from, any of: Walther, Glock, FN, Colt, Smith & Wesson, H&K, Steyr, Beretta, Sig-Sauer and probably a half dozen more I'm missing are quality manufacturers. Any of the above will serve well, and as you said it's personal preference (I forget exactly how DeNiro says it in Ronin, but it's something like "It's a toolbox, I use what's appropriate for the job.")

A good place to start when you're looking up firearms is: http://world.guns.ru/

Allow me to rephrase. They're not all "equal". That's why I put quotes around "good' and "bad". I was speaking more from a 'personal preference' standpoint. For instance, some view Glocks as "bad" and Berettas as the absolute best. It's got nothing to do with manufacturing but personal preference/opinion. :Shrug:

I really hope this thread doesn't turn into a battle of semantics.

Rowan · Nov 7, 2010

Who is familiar with Beretta? Can someone give me a rundown on the handguns, please (and to keep it simple--maybe compare Beretta to Sig/Glock).

BRDurkin · Nov 7, 2010

Linda Adams said:
First queston: We have a gate with a couple of uniformed guards--highly trained and expecting trouble. What kind of guns would they have that would signal they're expecting trouble and want to be prepared?

I am by no means the ultimate authority on this, but here are my recommendations. A fully prepared security guard will have two firearms, a primary and a secondary. For the primary, MP5 is definitely a good choice. M4 (more compact version of the M16/AR-15) is also a top choice for security. The G36C is a European answer to the American M4/M16, but same caliber. And of course, the AK-47 is a popular choice around the world. It's not as accurate at long ranges as the M4, but it's 7.62mm as opposed to 5.56mm.

For secondary (i.e. pistol), there are quite literally dozens of good choices. Springfield, Smith and Wesson, Sig, H&K, etc. If I were a guard and I was serious about my job, whatever pistol I carried would be at minimum .40 caliber, and I'd probably be using hollow points for my rounds.

Second question: There's a patrol boat guarding the shoreline. Patrol boat stops a fishing trawler that's gotten too near the shore. What kind of guns would the security patrol have?

Now this IS right up my alley as I used to be in the Navy and am quite familiar with maritime patrol. It depends on what size the patrol boat is (I've seen some as small as glorified motorboats, and some that were like heavily armed yachts, complete with missiles.) Assuming it's on the smaller end though, I'd say the boat's primary weapons would be dual-mounted .50 caliber machine guns, or perhaps a pair of M240G machine guns, which fire 7.62mm rounds. Both the .50s and the M240Gs can be mounted singly or dually. The M240Gs can also be carried and fired by hand, though it's not recommended. .50s MUST be mounted.

If the guards on the boat have personal firearms, it would likely be some sort of rifle, like the ones I mention in the first question. However, there would probably only be one or two aboard, as manning a machine gun takes pretty much all of one's attention. Pistols are next to useless when being fired from a boat, which is likely rocking back and forth and up and down in the waves, even if it's not moving forward.

Hopefully this answers your questions. If you need anything more specific, I'll be happy to dig up some links and pics for you.

BRDurkin · Nov 7, 2010

Rowan said:
Who is familiar with Beretta? Can someone give me a rundown on the handguns, please (and to keep it simple--maybe compare Beretta to Sig/Glock).

I'm familiar with the Beretta M9, which I used while on sentry duty in the US Navy.

The Beretta M9 uses a 9mm round, and has a magazine capacity of 15+1. It is a very user friendly weapon, with moderate trigger pull and very little felt recoil. It has an external safety/de-cocking lever. Magazine release is located on the left side of the weapon just below the trigger guard. Take-down lever is also on the left side of the weapon, forward under the slide. The M9 used to be very popular with Police, however one reason they transitioned away from it was because the take-down lever was so easy to use, that criminals could reach out, grab the gun, rotate the lever, and the gun would essentially fall apart.

I'm not familiar with the Glock 9mm versions, however I believe magazine capacity is similar to the M9. Also, most Glocks do NOT have external safety/de-cocking levers, and the take down lever is more difficult to operate, and thus safer for someone to use in a close quarters combat situation. I would say quality of the Glock is comparable, if not somewhat higher; however, the Berettas we used in the Navy took a beating, with thousands of rounds fired through them, and we only had 3 break during my 3 years on the ship.

Rowan · Nov 7, 2010

BRDurkin said:
I'm familiar with the Beretta M9, which I used while on sentry duty in the US Navy.

The Beretta M9 uses a 9mm round, and has a magazine capacity of 15+1. It is a very user friendly weapon, with moderate trigger pull and very little felt recoil. It has an external safety/de-cocking lever. Magazine release is located on the left side of the weapon just below the trigger guard. Take-down lever is also on the left side of the weapon, forward under the slide. The M9 used to be very popular with Police, however one reason they transitioned away from it was because the take-down lever was so easy to use, that criminals could reach out, grab the gun, rotate the lever, and the gun would essentially fall apart.

I'm not familiar with the Glock 9mm versions, however I believe magazine capacity is similar to the M9. Also, most Glocks do NOT have external safety/de-cocking levers, and the take down lever is more difficult to operate, and thus safer for someone to use in a close quarters combat situation. I would say quality of the Glock is comparable, if not somewhat higher; however, the Berettas we used in the Navy took a beating, with thousands of rounds fired through them, and we only had 3 break during my 3 years on the ship.

Thank you! Is the Beretta M9 DA/SA, DAO or SAO? I'm not a Glock fan (was issued one and trained on it but not a fan).

That's interesting about the take-down lever. I didn't know that about Beretta.

BRDurkin · Nov 7, 2010

The M9 is DA/SA. Trigger pull on SA is much, MUCH nicer of course. Instructors got mad at me when I discovered that and was using it to try to make my first shots more accurate. (Hey, train like you fight, right!?)

Kenn · Nov 7, 2010

Linda Adams said:
No, it's not. It's the royal family of a fictional country, set in the South Pacific.

Then the arms will be determined by the nature of the country and the type of threat. I have been to one country where some restaurants had armed guards with pump action shotguns protecting them (although I wasn't sure who they were protecting them from - in fact I didn't really want to know!). Yet if I walked around my village and saw a security man (or even a policeman for that matter), I would assume there was something badly amiss. If the country is one that is subject to the occasional coup, then it is not unreasonable to expect a tank guarding the place. If it is one that is totally crime free, then visibly armed security men might only draw attention and be politically inexpedient.

Drachen Jager · Nov 7, 2010

Linda Adams said:
No, it's not. It's the royal family of a fictional country, set in the South Pacific.

Tongan military uses:

Fiji uses:

So, presuming your island has a lot in common with those you'd be looking at a mix of European, American and possibly Israeli or Western-allied Asian (Daewoo is Korean) weapons.

Anaximander · Nov 8, 2010

Just skimming over this thread to check I'm doing it right in my current action WIP, and I noticed the point about throwing an empty weapon at the enemy. I see you have it listed as a movie mistake, but I have it on good authority that a number of military units, including the US Marines and (I think) the SAS, instruct their soldiers to throw a jammed weapon. If a weapon fails to fire in the field, their instructions are to clear the chamber (in case it's just a dud round), then hold the slide/bolt back and give the weapon a smart whack, which will often knock a crumpled casing clear, and if that fails then they are to chuck the weapon at the enemy's face (or as close as they can get) while reaching for their sidearm. The idea is that if you can't clear the weapon quickly then there's no point trying because you're under fire. Still, the jam makes it as useless to the enemy as it is to you, so you might as well use it to distract them while you switch weapons. If you survive, you can pick it up afterwards and clear the jam. Or just take their gun, if necessary.

Summonere · Nov 8, 2010

Well, if you have another gun, then ditching the primary for the secondary can be a good idea. Weapon transition drills cover this contingency (faster to grab another weapon rather than clear a stoppage in the primary, e.g. by SPORTS method: Slap, Pull, Observe, Release, Tap, Shoot; or Tap, Rack, Bang, or still other methodology, depending on what you're using, under what conditions, and what's afoot). But it many movies and TV shows, the gun tosser has no other weapon. It's those cases, when the character tosses away a useful bludgeon, that seem silly.

Giant Baby · Nov 8, 2010

Rep points and eternal appreciation for everyone in this thread!

Drachen Jager · Nov 8, 2010

Anaximander said:
I have it on good authority that a number of military units, including the US Marines and (I think) the SAS, instruct their soldiers to throw a jammed weapon. If a weapon fails to fire in the field, their instructions are to clear the chamber (in case it's just a dud round), then hold the slide/bolt back and give the weapon a smart whack, which will often knock a crumpled casing clear, and if that fails then they are to chuck the weapon at the enemy's face (or as close as they can get) while reaching for their sidearm.

In the '90s, (or late '80s) when the UK forces were adopting the L85 bullpup rifle the SAS opted for an AR15 variant instead of the L85 because the AR15 has a solid stock which is far more effective in close combat and doesn't damage the rifle when used as a club.

I don't know SAS doctrine but I do know the above is accurate. I'd think that if the enemy was close enough that you could throw your rifle at them it would be faster to charge and hit them with the rifle butt rather than throwing your weapon and drawing a sidearm. It's also much harder to hit a target that's charging at you in that way than someone who's standing there (even if they're throwing something at you).

Noah Body · Nov 8, 2010

Ol' Fashioned Girl said:
Another point about the 'instinct' being invoked above... people who depend upon their firearms for life and death, practice... practice... practice... and practice some more. You'll hear the term 'muscle memory' used, too. It's the concept that kicks in when the adrenaline is flowing and the brain is sending signals to muscles that have practiced... practiced... practiced... and those muscles do what they're supposed to do (chamber a round, thumb off the safety, take aim (keeping the tender parts of your thumb and the soft tissue between it and your index finger out of the way of the recoiling slide), fire and repeat without conscious thought - all the while your head's thinkin' 'Oh, shit! Oh, shit! Oh! Shit!'.

Apparently, this officer needs to train a bit more...

But at least she had the weapon indexed.

Summonere · Nov 8, 2010

Holy wow, Batman.

Rowan · Nov 8, 2010

Anaximander said:
Just skimming over this thread to check I'm doing it right in my current action WIP, and I noticed the point about throwing an empty weapon at the enemy. I see you have it listed as a movie mistake, but I have it on good authority that a number of military units, including the US Marines and (I think) the SAS, instruct their soldiers to throw a jammed weapon. If a weapon fails to fire in the field, their instructions are to clear the chamber (in case it's just a dud round), then hold the slide/bolt back and give the weapon a smart whack, which will often knock a crumpled casing clear, and if that fails then they are to chuck the weapon at the enemy's face (or as close as they can get) while reaching for their sidearm. The idea is that if you can't clear the weapon quickly then there's no point trying because you're under fire. Still, the jam makes it as useless to the enemy as it is to you, so you might as well use it to distract them while you switch weapons. If you survive, you can pick it up afterwards and clear the jam. Or just take their gun, if necessary.

HHmmm, I'm a former US Marine and I don't recall being instructed to do this (granted, I've been out a while). I carried a M16 so I'm with Summonere... I'd rather hold onto the M16 and use it as a club versus hurling it in the off chance I hit someone.

I'd just drop it--as a last resort--and clear it later. There's a reason the Marines have a rifle creed... "This is my rifle. There are many like it, but this one is mine..."

Posted by Summonere:
Well, if you have another gun, then ditching the primary for the secondary can be a good idea. Weapon transition drills cover this contingency (faster to grab another weapon rather than clear a stoppage in the primary, e.g. by SPORTS method: Slap, Pull, Observe, Release, Tap, Shoot; or Tap, Rack, Bang, or still other methodology, depending on what you're using, under what conditions, and what's afoot). But it many movies and TV shows, the gun tosser has no other weapon. It's those cases, when the character tosses away a useful bludgeon, that seem silly.

Transition drills and clearing drills are taught in both military and federal LE programs. In fact, Marines repeatedly practice clearing jammed weapons. You have to do this automatically, and for good reason. Clearing a jam should be second nature. Personally, I've got more experience with handguns.

Tiger · Nov 8, 2010

Rowan said:
Thank you! Is the Beretta M9 DA/SA, DAO or SAO? I'm not a Glock fan (was issued one and trained on it but not a fan).

That's interesting about the take-down lever. I didn't know that about Beretta.

I don't like slide-mounted safeties. That was one of the things I didn't like about the S&W (3rd gen) autos. I do like the big, beefy grip and the very smooth action of the Berettas.

The Firearms Thread (Questions and Discussions)

Rowan

OneWriter

Ubi dubium ibi libertas

Rowan

OneWriter

Ubi dubium ibi libertas

Rowan

Ol' Fashioned Girl

Hand? What hand?

Rowan

Ol' Fashioned Girl

Hand? What hand?

Drachen Jager

Professor of applied misanthropy

Rowan

Rowan

BRDurkin

Trigger-Happy Pyromaniac Writer

BRDurkin

Trigger-Happy Pyromaniac Writer

Rowan

BRDurkin

Trigger-Happy Pyromaniac Writer

Kenn

New kid, be gentle!

Drachen Jager

Professor of applied misanthropy

Anaximander

Summonere

Giant Baby

Oh, the humanity.

Drachen Jager

Professor of applied misanthropy

Noah Body

Entertainment Ronin

Summonere

Rowan

Tiger

AKA: "Gums of Steel"