Question for writers/readers of gay & M/M erotic fiction

Koinblast

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[FONT=&quot]Hi, everyone. I’m new to the boards. Of course, I’ve been lurking for awhile and it’s been a great help, but it’s time to have an account now that I’ve started writing for real.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I’m about to self publish (for the first time ever) some erotic stories in the gay and/or M/M genre. To give you an idea of their nature; they are all linked together as a series (i.e. same characters, same world) and are very much about plot and character as much as they are about the sex. In other words, they’re the kind that if you took away the sex—or at least lot of the description—it would still be a solid story.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]One difficult aspect I’ve ran into is what to promote it as: Gay or M/M?[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]From what I can tell, those labeled M/M tend to focus a lot more on world-building and narrative depth than those labeled Gay. And when those labeled Gay do have that, they tend to be more about characters living the “gay lifestyle” while M/M can be about any lifestyle, just as long as men are having sex with each other. Mine definitely fits more into M/M as far as that goes, but my concern is that M/M also seems to mostly deal with romance and relationships, and I’ve gotten the sense that two M’s could mean that the sex is limited to two characters only. If that’s the case, it may not work for mine, since—while my two primary characters do share a lot of intimate connection and tension—there are other main characters and they all have multiple sex partners.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Maybe I’m overthinking this, but I don’t want to mislead readers who are looking for characters going to gay clubs and pride marches, and I don’t want to blow potential sales from readers who like gay sex going on in wild motorcycle gangs and werewolf packs, which is much closer to my style. I just want to be upfront about what I’m offering.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Also, if you put something like “(M/M Erotic series)” or “(Gay Erotic series)” after the title, will Amazon filter you as Adult? I’m not sure how bad it is to be filtered, but reading Selena Kitt’s articles has me sort of scared of it, haha.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Thanks for reading, and many thanks to any advice.[/FONT]
 

thethinker42

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The two are pretty much interchangeable now. I list all of mine as M/M and Gay. Readers can tell from the blurb if it's their cup of tea or not.

I've never heard the genres differentiated the way you're describing. I've heard M/M used to describe books that fetishize gay men for the enjoyment of straight women, but usually by people who hate the idea of women reading or writing about gay men, and villify it from every possible angle. Otherwise, I have never run into a reader who says they only read one or the other, or turn up their nose at one term, or even see a difference between them.
 
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Koinblast

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Ah, okay, thanks. I've never heard them differentiated the way I did either, I was just naming off some elemental differences I happened to notice. I'm a bit autistic like that.

I did notice that M/M is mostly what they call it when it's written by women, and some people like to make a big deal out of that. Even though I'm a gay guy, it seemed like my stuff could much easier go alongside what I see written by women. It made me wonder if there really was something to this "M/M" thing, as far as genre goes.

What also confused me was I saw some people saying "M/M/M" which I'm sure now means a love triangle, but at the time I took it as indicating more than two characters are having sex.

I'll probably just go with Gay since that seems simpler.

Thanks again.
 

thethinker42

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M/M/M generally indicates a ménage situation. I've written a few of those, actually.

For yours, I would just make sure the blurbs are clear so the reader knows what kind of story they're getting, and that it's a gay pairing/grouping. Also, if it's not a romance, make sure that's clear too.

But don't sweat the difference between M/M and Gay. :)
 

c.m.n.

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I agree with Lori. Don't sweat the difference. I know plenty of gay men who write and label it M/M. IMHO, for sake of sales, I would definitely keep both labels.
 

DiloKeith

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I think there's a difference, one not primarily based on the author's orientation (which I mention because of previous posts). For the OP's purpose, it probably doesn't matter. Given the controversy, I'm not sure it's a good idea to comment, but I'll add some thoughts. "M/M" often indicates some sort of romance even if otherwise labeled, and IMO is less likely than something labeled "gay" to reflect the reality of gay men. (This is relative, not absolute -- plenty of M/M is based on the experiences of gay men.) "Gay" no longer seems to have much meaning; it could be romance or not, and based on real gay "culture" or not. Something labeled "gay erotica" tends not to be erotic romance, but beyond that, it's difficult to know. These aren't official definitions; this is based on my experience as a reader and writer of gay (non-romance) fiction.
 

slashedkaze

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I can honestly say that I've never paid attention to that as a reader. Amazon doesn't take an issue either. They take issue with other things, but not with the word "gay." (I'm pretty sure people would throw rocks if they did.)
 

brandon_shire

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Agreed, the differentiation has become somewhat mixed. However, you'll get m/m 'purists' looking for a HEA or HFN who can get a bit annoyed.

My take is to let the readers decide how they want to label it and just use a solid marketing plan that works for that particular ms. The labels will work themselves out.
 

Koinblast

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Thanks for your thoughts, everyone. I'm much more at ease now. :)

What Dilokeith and Filigree said are sort of what I was trying to say before. I noticed "M/M" tends to be more on the fantasy side of it. Not necessarily Fantasy genre, but an idealized setting or reality in which two men have sex and/or fall in love. Some of it is somewhat close to Yaoi. Then "Gay" seemed like it more often indicates having to do with gay culture/lifestyle, but can also emphasize the sex.

Of course, like you all said, I've seen authors of both genders using both terms, and either being used for all different kinds of stories. The question of what gender the authors are didn't bother me, but the difference in content or aspects seemed like it could be tricky. After looking at some discussions, I just wondered if there was a definite way to approach it. Like would it be ridiculous to call my writing M/M when it's not romance, or ridiculous to call it Gay when it's not depicting gay culture or lifestyle? I have things in my stories that could make it fit with both and not fit at the same time. For instance, my setting and characters are closer to what I find in works usually called M/M, but there is an emphasis of sex over romance, which I often see indicated by calling a story Gay.

I was thinking of using Gay for that very reason, but now that I have a clearer idea, I think I'll follow c.m.n.'s advice and use both. I'd sort of had that idea before, as I've seen many authors doing it, I just wasn't sure if that was generally accepted or could mark me as someone who doesn't know what I'm doing. I'd never thought about all this before until I started writing.

Thank you for your help, everyone, and please feel free to share anymore thoughts you may have.
 

thethinker42

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Like would it be ridiculous to call my writing M/M when it's not romance, or ridiculous to call it Gay when it's not depicting gay culture or lifestyle?

No. Though you may have noticed those patterns, they're not required genre conventions or anything of the sort. Honestly, I'd never even heard that until this thread.

M/M and Gay are interchangeable, just make sure you're specific about whether it's romance, erotica, or another genre, as that'll affect the type of ending your readers expect.
 

briannasealock

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[FONT=&quot]Hi, everyone. I’m new to the boards. Of course, I’ve been lurking for awhile and it’s been a great help, but it’s time to have an account now that I’ve started writing for real.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I’m about to self publish (for the first time ever) some erotic stories in the gay and/or M/M genre. To give you an idea of their nature; they are all linked together as a series (i.e. same characters, same world) and are very much about plot and character as much as they are about the sex. In other words, they’re the kind that if you took away the sex—or at least lot of the description—it would still be a solid story.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]One difficult aspect I’ve ran into is what to promote it as: Gay or M/M?[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]From what I can tell, those labeled M/M tend to focus a lot more on world-building and narrative depth than those labeled Gay. And when those labeled Gay do have that, they tend to be more about characters living the “gay lifestyle” while M/M can be about any lifestyle, just as long as men are having sex with each other. Mine definitely fits more into M/M as far as that goes, but my concern is that M/M also seems to mostly deal with romance and relationships, and I’ve gotten the sense that two M’s could mean that the sex is limited to two characters only. If that’s the case, it may not work for mine, since—while my two primary characters do share a lot of intimate connection and tension—there are other main characters and they all have multiple sex partners.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Maybe I’m overthinking this, but I don’t want to mislead readers who are looking for characters going to gay clubs and pride marches, and I don’t want to blow potential sales from readers who like gay sex going on in wild motorcycle gangs and werewolf packs, which is much closer to my style. I just want to be upfront about what I’m offering.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Also, if you put something like “(M/M Erotic series)” or “(Gay Erotic series)” after the title, will Amazon filter you as Adult? I’m not sure how bad it is to be filtered, but reading Selena Kitt’s articles has me sort of scared of it, haha.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Thanks for reading, and many thanks to any advice.[/FONT]

I'd say Gay because it's two dude's in a relationship, sex or no sex.
 

sportourer1

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Overthinking difficult issues

I think we writers tend to overthink "difficult" areas. I write historical thrillers but in my first novel there is a gay character. I agonised for ages about how such a man would behave and be treated by others in the early 19th century
 

Maryn

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I suspect he'd keep his orientation hidden from casual view, except at times when he is at a place where gay men of the period gather, be it a club, tavern, or someone's home. I suspect he'd work reasonably hard at passing as a straight man most of the time with, at most, small touches of his appearance and behaviors suggesting otherwise to those who might recognize one of their own.

Hell, even in the 1960s and 1970s, gay men IDed one another by how they carried their bandanas or which ear was pierced. I imagine such "secret handshakes" have always existed in societies large enough to have a gay subculture.

I did a lot of research years ago on being gay in NYC in 1906, and that's how it was then and there. You're a hundred years earlier, when tolerance was even less in most places.

Maryn, glad to live now
 

A.P.M.

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I also have never differentiated the terms. The way I've seen writers usually differentiate heat levels (a focus on sex vs other story elements) is with the terms "romance," "erotic romance," or "erotica," not by using Gay or M/M.