Let's talk Consent, shall we?

blaquebutterfly · Jun 29, 2014

briannasealock said:
What thread is it that's about you'r writing block??? I must find it. I do hope you don't mind and I'll read your post on safe words. Mine is Vatican Cameo's. (whoever gets the reference gets an internet brownie!)

And yes, it was very helpful. I must remember the differences. I ten to talk more Dom/Sub than Master/Salve.

ooOOOH...Consensual non-consent is neat. I mean, there's a ton of planning that goes into it but the end result is pretty sexy. I read some of that.

Not sure if this is what you were asking, but this is the post you did and where I responded (The P.S. I Love You/BDSM post.) This prompted the safe-word post on my blog (my blog link below.)

Yes, Dom/sub is different (and the way people identify can differ soooo much) I have an old article I might post regarding that (I used to own a BDSM Resource website years ago and have a lot of old content.)

Consensual non-consent is what makes some Master/slave relationships function well (probably not how I wanted to say that but I haven't had enough coffee yet lol.) I think the most important thing is choosing well and choosing someone who is in line with your personal values, someone moral and good (within your meaning of those things.)

~B.B.

briannasealock · Jun 29, 2014

blaquebutterfly said:
Not sure if this is what you were asking, but this is the post you did and where I responded (The P.S. I Love You/BDSM post.) This prompted the safe-word post on my blog (my blog link below.)

Yes, Dom/sub is different (and the way people identify can differ soooo much) I have an old article I might post regarding that (I used to own a BDSM Resource website years ago and have a lot of old content.)

Consensual non-consent is what makes some Master/slave relationships function well (probably not how I wanted to say that but I haven't had enough coffee yet lol.) I think the most important thing is choosing well and choosing someone who is in line with your personal values, someone moral and good (within your meaning of those things.)

~B.B.

oh, yes. I remember that one.
I've read a lot of BDSM resource websites when I was doing my initial research before getting into writing it fully.

I think another thing to consider is also trust. I don't plan on letting anyone near me with rope unless I trust them explicitly and know they can do it correctly.

It makes sense for their to be a form of consent all the time in a Master/Slave dynamic; I guess.

Maryn · Jun 29, 2014

It's before the time of anyone on this thread, if I remember who's posted, but a formerly active member here shared a cautionary tale. A woman he knew well had a regular "play Dom" with whom she met for BDSM for more than a year. Both enjoyed it and scheduled sessions as often as they could find mutually convenient times.

And one day he ignored her safe word when she was well restrained, and did things I won't enumerate here which humiliated her, hurt her badly, and made her scared to trust any man ever again, because she'd trusted this one completely.

Not all trust is deserved trust.

Maryn, super-picky about who she trusts

briannasealock · Jun 29, 2014

Maryn said:
It's before the time of anyone on this thread, if I remember who's posted, but a formerly active member here shared a cautionary tale. A woman he knew well had a regular "play Dom" with whom she met for BDSM for more than a year. Both enjoyed it and scheduled sessions as often as they could find mutually convenient times.

And one day he ignored her safe word when she was well restrained, and did things I won't enumerate here which humiliated her, hurt her badly, and made her scared to trust any man ever again, because she'd trusted this one completely.

Not all trust is deserved trust.

Maryn, super-picky about who she trusts

woosh - that's....wow.

Maryn · Jun 29, 2014

It was appalling, and sad. The woman was active in the BDSM community, but when the person who knew her last posted about her, she'd not only dropped out but was behaving in a way he likened to a recluse, going out only when she had to. He urged her to get some counseling, but we can only hope she did, the poor thing.

Maryn, shaking her head

blaquebutterfly · Jun 29, 2014

Maryn said:
It's before the time of anyone on this thread, if I remember who's posted, but a formerly active member here shared a cautionary tale. A woman he knew well had a regular "play Dom" with whom she met for BDSM for more than a year. Both enjoyed it and scheduled sessions as often as they could find mutually convenient times.

And one day he ignored her safe word when she was well restrained, and did things I won't enumerate here which humiliated her, hurt her badly, and made her scared to trust any man ever again, because she'd trusted this one completely.

Not all trust is deserved trust.

Maryn, super-picky about who she trusts

I'm with Brianna on this....just WOW!

I also agree, not all trust is deserved and even when earned people can show a different side of themselves (even in vanilla relationships.) So sad and scary!

blaquebutterfly · Jun 29, 2014

briannasealock said:
oh, yes. I remember that
I think another thing to consider is also trust. I don't plan on letting anyone near me with rope unless I trust them explicitly and know they can do it correctly.

It makes sense for their to be a form of consent all the time in a Master/Slave dynamic; I guess.

Brianna,

I think some of the best bondage is without ropes or any such thing. To me, binding someone just by will (the Masters and the slave/sub's will to please) is much more intense.

As an aside, this reminds me of FSOG and the stuff with the scarves or ties (can't even recall what it was.) I found that very unsettling and irresponsible since those things can cause nerve damage easily and the sub can't be taken out of them quickly enough sometimes.

In my novel (to be released this year I hope) I use mental bondage and binding by the MC's own hair.

And in a M/s dynamic consent all the time is pretty much a must. The only thing I can see is if it's something very new and possible intense, the Master may, depending on the slave, opt to discuss things beforehand.

briannasealock · Jun 30, 2014

Maryn said:
It was appalling, and sad. The woman was active in the BDSM community, but when the person who knew her last posted about her, she'd not only dropped out but was behaving in a way he likened to a recluse, going out only when she had to. He urged her to get some counseling, but we can only hope she did, the poor thing.

Maryn, shaking her head

shooooo......I don't blame her. That'd scare me too. I hope she got counseling.

briannasealock · Jun 30, 2014

blaquebutterfly said:
Brianna,

I think some of the best bondage is without ropes or any such thing. To me, binding someone just by will (the Masters and the slave/sub's will to please) is much more intense.

As an aside, this reminds me of FSOG and the stuff with the scarves or ties (can't even recall what it was.) I found that very unsettling and irresponsible since those things can cause nerve damage easily and the sub can't be taken out of them quickly enough sometimes.

In my novel (to be released this year I hope) I use mental bondage and binding by the MC's own hair.

And in a M/s dynamic consent all the time is pretty much a must. The only thing I can see is if it's something very new and possible intense, the Master may, depending on the slave, opt to discuss things beforehand.

ugh, if it's those plastic ties cops use than that's just stupid. See, that is why I don't think Whats-her-Face did any research for her book at all and just wrote stuff without even looking at circulation and what have you.

I appreciate when the author mentions something about the Master/Top/Dom checking to see if circulation is fine and what have you. I think it's wonderful if they check not he safety aspect of things. I guess I find that sexy.

The fiction where its binding by words is really....nice to read. Because the Sub/Bottom/Slave wants to do it and they're happy to do it and it's - well, the stuff I have read - is mostly romantic.

Am I gonna see your book not he book shelves of my grocer or what?

blaquebutterfly · Jun 30, 2014

briannasealock said:
ugh, if it's those plastic ties cops use than that's just stupid. See, that is why I don't think Whats-her-Face did any research for her book at all and just wrote stuff without even looking at circulation and what have you.

Ummm yeah NO those are totally NOT safe. But there are cuffs with safety buckles (for example.) Some of those have fur lining and some bite a bit more without the fur. Add some of those clip things to the O rings and the sub can be bound but safe from nerve damage.
There are beautiful things that can be done with Japanese rope bondage and the colors are INTENSE.

briannasealock said:
I appreciate when the author mentions something about the Master/Top/Dom checking to see if circulation is fine and what have you. I think it's wonderful if they check not he safety aspect of things. I guess I find that sexy.

I think it's a good thing, though I haven't considered writing it in. Wonderful for sure!

briannasealock said:
The fiction where its binding by words is really....nice to read. Because the Sub/Bottom/Slave wants to do it and they're happy to do it and it's - well, the stuff I have read - is mostly romantic.

It's just part of it. It's a lot harder to be still because you want to be (or the Master wishes you to be), especially when someone is doing things with floggers or canes (or even tickling.) A newbie would actually find it more difficult (I would imagine) because it takes conditioning. The sub/slave/bottom should always want to do it (being capable is different hehehe), or it's a different kind of book (which can be hot on its own

)

briannasealock said:
Am I gonna see your book not he book shelves of my grocer or what?

That would be nice, but I can't imagine the sex I write making it into the grocery store or Wallyworld anytime soon LOL. I have a difficult time just trying to write safer sex (really bugs me to write it!) So, I'm thinking no

V.W.Singer · Jun 30, 2014

As a writer of *fiction* the use of the term BDSM as both a descriptor for a class/spectrum of sexual activity AND a certain lifestyle poses a problem.

Just as works of adventure, detective, and science fiction, do not at all times comply with "real life", I cannot see why works of fiction with a BDSM theme should have any obligation to do so either, *unless* the work is touted as an accurate depiction of the lifestyle.

Surely Roman slavers, Sex Androids, Arms Dealers, Greek Gods, people in alternate or fantasy worlds, etc cannot be expected by any reasonable reader to be representative of a certain "real life" lifestyle? If a reader is so foolish as to attempt something he or she read in such a novel, the author can hardly be expected to feel any responsiblity.

veinglory · Jul 1, 2014

As a reader, it is just the same. If the ancient world harem girl has a formally agreed "safe word" that is mondo unbelievable.

DancingMaenid · Jul 2, 2014

Maryn said:
It's before the time of anyone on this thread, if I remember who's posted, but a formerly active member here shared a cautionary tale. A woman he knew well had a regular "play Dom" with whom she met for BDSM for more than a year. Both enjoyed it and scheduled sessions as often as they could find mutually convenient times.

And one day he ignored her safe word when she was well restrained, and did things I won't enumerate here which humiliated her, hurt her badly, and made her scared to trust any man ever again, because she'd trusted this one completely.

Not all trust is deserved trust.

Maryn, super-picky about who she trusts

I think this is a good example of why a safeword isn't the biggest point of BDSM consent, too. Someone who doesn't care about their partner's safety and consent is not going to care just because the person utters a safeword. It's easy for safewords to be ignored. And someone who does care about their partner's well-being shouldn't rely 100% on a safeword to know that their partner is okay.

Safe words and nonverbal cues can be handy, particularly in roleplay scenarios or scenes where someone is gagged. But just having a safe word isn't going to make a scene safe or consensual, and not having one doesn't always mean that the scene is unsafe. A lot of couples don't use safewords.

In fiction, showing safeword use can serve a purpose sometimes, but there's a lot more to showing that a relationship is consensual and happy than just acknowledging that the sub has a safeword, and the presence of a safeword alone doesn't mean that the relationship is healthy.

V.W.Singer said:
Surely Roman slavers, Sex Androids, Arms Dealers, Greek Gods, people in alternate or fantasy worlds, etc cannot be expected by any reasonable reader to be representative of a certain "real life" lifestyle? If a reader is so foolish as to attempt something he or she read in such a novel, the author can hardly be expected to feel any responsiblity.

veinglory said:
As a reader, it is just the same. If the ancient world harem girl has a formally agreed "safe word" that is mondo unbelievable.

I think this is a very good point. There are scenarios and settings where contemporary BDSM protocol is going to feel very out-of-place. And foregoing contemporary protocol doesn't mean that your only option is to write an unsafe or non-consensual relationship. You can write about a relationship that wouldn't be safe, sane, and consensual in real life, and that's fine. But you can also write about sex androids and harem girls and make it clear that they're having fun and are willing participants, with nary a safeword or kink negotiation scene in sight.

veinglory · Jul 2, 2014

Indeed. And the same is true for modern people who are not part of the establish scene.

blaquebutterfly · Jul 2, 2014

DancingMaenid said:
I think this is a good example of why a safeword isn't the biggest point of BDSM consent, too. Someone who doesn't care about their partner's safety and consent is not going to care just because the person utters a safeword.

Absolutely! This is where trust and communication are paramount. Great point!

DancingMaenid said:
Safe words and nonverbal cues can be handy......(Taken out for brevity-because all you said is great!)...not having one doesn't always mean that the scene is unsafe. A lot of couples don't use safewords.

Again, trust/communication is so important in this. A dom/Master who really knows his "other" will read non-verbal cues better than one who doesn't.

DancingMaenid said:
In fiction, showing safeword use can serve a purpose sometimes, but there's a lot more to showing that a relationship is consensual and happy than just acknowledging that the sub has a safeword....

Exactly. I will also add to this, that there is an overuse of the power, need, meaning etc. of safewords that could put a newbie in jeopardy.(Especially if they're playing with a dubious dabbler who confuses rough play with a desire to be abused.) That is just a recipe for disaster.

~B.B.

robjvargas · Jul 2, 2014

DancingMaenid said:
But you can also write about sex androids and harem girls and make it clear that they're having fun and are willing participants, with nary a safeword or kink negotiation scene in sight.

Ummm...

Tell that to Pris.

I don't mean that as a knock on you. Just pointing out that, sometimes, androids *do* dream of electric sheep.

Ann_Mayburn · Jul 3, 2014

It's not a book that is going to make a person go out and rape people, it's the person themself just like it isn't the gun that that shoots, but the person pulling the trigger. Some people really, really get off on the fantasy of being raped but they would never in real life enjoy the giving or the receiving of such an act. So they turn to romance fiction to feed that fantasy or role playing with their consensual partner in a safe, sane, and consensual environment.

That said, rape for the point of titillation disturbs me so much I cannot read or write it. To me it isn't love, but hate, and has no place in my romance. I do love some dub-con, and write a great deal of it, but that is because it appeals to the fantasy of a forced seduction, not rape. Difference? Consent. Even when no means yes yes yes, there is some agreement between the two either via safeword or whatever that when xxx is said/done it really means stop.

Does this lead to a culture where rape is glorified? Maybe? That's a discussion for much smarter people than me but I can tell you from a personal standpoint I enjoy writing dub-con and playing out dub-con scenarios with my husband but would never, ever ever ever encourage or participate in true rape and I would hope that most of my readers feel the same way.

DancingMaenid · Jul 3, 2014

robjvargas said:
Ummm...

Tell that to Pris.

I don't mean that as a knock on you. Just pointing out that, sometimes, androids *do* dream of electric sheep.

I don't get your point? It seems like we're saying the same thing?

briannasealock · Jul 4, 2014

blaquebutterfly said:
Ummm yeah NO those are totally NOT safe. But there are cuffs with safety buckles (for example.) Some of those have fur lining and some bite a bit more without the fur. Add some of those clip things to the O rings and the sub can be bound but safe from nerve damage.
There are beautiful things that can be done with Japanese rope bondage and the colors are INTENSE.

I think it's a good thing, though I haven't considered writing it in. Wonderful for sure!

It's just part of it. It's a lot harder to be still because you want to be (or the Master wishes you to be), especially when someone is doing things with floggers or canes (or even tickling.) A newbie would actually find it more difficult (I would imagine) because it takes conditioning. The sub/slave/bottom should always want to do it (being capable is different hehehe), or it's a different kind of book (which can be hot on its own )

That would be nice, but I can't imagine the sex I write making it into the grocery store or Wallyworld anytime soon LOL. I have a difficult time just trying to write safer sex (really bugs me to write it!) So, I'm thinking no

Whenever someone mentions those ties I cringe. And it's good to know someone has thought about that aspect with the cuffs.

I guess it would be hard to be still if someone is hitting you. Even if you've consented to it. lol. I dunn think I can do it. I find restraints sexy anyway so that's mostly the stuff I write/read.

Awe. I say if Fifty Shades of whatever can make it than your's can.

I understand how hard it is to write safe sex. I always feel like I'm double thinking my own sex scenes when I'm writing something that could be anything other than consensual. (and yes, I have written an non-con sex scene) like once. It turned out all right but that's what made me realize that I really do like consent in my fiction. *shrugs*

but yeah. I'll pick up your book sometime whenever it's out and if I have the money. You sound like and expert.

briannasealock · Jul 4, 2014

Ann_Mayburn said:
It's not a book that is going to make a person go out and rape people, it's the person themself just like it isn't the gun that that shoots, but the person pulling the trigger. Some people really, really get off on the fantasy of being raped but they would never in real life enjoy the giving or the receiving of such an act. So they turn to romance fiction to feed that fantasy or role playing with their consensual partner in a safe, sane, and consensual environment.

That said, rape for the point of titillation disturbs me so much I cannot read or write it. To me it isn't love, but hate, and has no place in my romance. I do love some dub-con, and write a great deal of it, but that is because it appeals to the fantasy of a forced seduction, not rape. Difference? Consent. Even when no means yes yes yes, there is some agreement between the two either via safeword or whatever that when xxx is said/done it really means stop.

Does this lead to a culture where rape is glorified? Maybe? That's a discussion for much smarter people than me but I can tell you from a personal standpoint I enjoy writing dub-con and playing out dub-con scenarios with my husband but would never, ever ever ever encourage or participate in true rape and I would hope that most of my readers feel the same way.

It's like when crazy people quote books like Catcher in the Rye and associate strongly with Sunny and Holden (no, I haven't read the book, I've recently watched an episode of Criminal Minds where the book plays a sort of part in the plot line) and people analyze and stuff. I probably won't ever read that book because of all the crazy people who have read it and then gone out to do stuff and say "Oh this book made me do it."

It's a cop out to reason out their behavior. It's like saying violent movies and video games make people do stuff when in fact it doesn't and those people are crazy and we should probably keep a closer eye on our crazy people instead of making more laws against guns and what have you. Let's try and fix the people who are the actual problem.

After all "Guns don't kill people. We are all immortal souls living temporarily in shelters of earth and meat." (internet brownies to whoever gets that reference.

)

It's the same with fiction. Just because someone write a rape/non-con situation; it does not mean in anyway that the author permits it to happen in RL. We all know that erotica is just fantasy. And it's okay to have a fantasy as long as people don't reenact it out in RL without the proper preparations.

sunandshadow · Jul 4, 2014

briannasealock said:
I Let's try and fix the people who are the actual problem.

That would require something like socialized mental health care for everyone from pre-teens up, with mental health screenings in schools alongside hearing and vision screenings. There might be some Scandinavian country that does that, but most countries would have a political conniption at the very idea.

briannasealock · Jul 4, 2014

sunandshadow said:
That would require something like socialized mental health care for everyone from pre-teens up, with mental health screenings in schools alongside hearing and vision screenings. There might be some Scandinavian country that does that, but most countries would have a political conniption at the very idea.

so true. It'd be hard to come up with a system to help with those who may go on the war path and not trample all over their human rights.

blaquebutterfly · Jul 5, 2014

briannasealock said:
I guess it would be hard to be still if someone is hitting you. Even if you've consented to it. lol. I dunn think I can do it. I find restraints sexy anyway so that's mostly the stuff I write/read.

I agree, restraints are very sexy and I liked to write/read them too but I also like the other aspect of conditioning someone to not need them.

briannasealock said:
Awe. I say if Fifty Shades of whatever can make it than your's can.

Thanks, and I think a lot of us are hoping for that!

briannasealock said:
I understand how hard it is to write safe sex.

When I said safe-sex, I meant condom scenes. I have a seriously difficult time writing them in. I think in the future I'm going to do two versions and see how that works. My BDSM scenes will always be safe, they might ultimately push things to the edge, but they'll be safe.

briannasealock said:
but yeah. I'll pick up your book sometime whenever it's out and if I have the money. You sound like and expert.

It's out, I released it 06/09/14 online (print version should be available soon as well.) I self published it to see how that avenue goes. I'm working on the second in that series now.

I got a really great review from a reviewer the other day, so that made my week

I'm far from expert, but I have been swimming in the lifestyle pool for years and have learned a lot that way.

robjvargas · Jul 5, 2014

DancingMaenid said:
I don't get your point? It seems like we're saying the same thing?

Yeah, me too. I think the first time around, I read you as referring to "android sex" as not requiring (so to speak) consent.

I don't read it that way now, though.

DancingMaenid · Jul 5, 2014

robjvargas said:
Yeah, me too. I think the first time around, I read you as referring to "android sex" as not requiring (so to speak) consent.

I don't read it that way now, though.

Yeah, no, I'm saying that you can show consent in a relationship without using contemporary (or simplistic) kink protocol, especially in scenarios where the characters wouldn't know that protocol.

Of course, you can write nonconsensual android sex, too. But it's nonconsensual because it's nonconsensual. Not because there's no safeword involved.

Let's talk Consent, shall we?

blaquebutterfly

briannasealock

Maryn

At Sea

briannasealock

Maryn

At Sea

blaquebutterfly

blaquebutterfly

briannasealock

briannasealock

blaquebutterfly

V.W.Singer

Purveyor of naughtiness

veinglory

volitare nequeo

DancingMaenid

New kid...seven years ago!

veinglory

volitare nequeo

blaquebutterfly

robjvargas

Ann_Mayburn

Smutty McTitters

DancingMaenid

New kid...seven years ago!

briannasealock

briannasealock

sunandshadow

Impractical Fantasy Animal

briannasealock

blaquebutterfly

robjvargas

DancingMaenid

New kid...seven years ago!