Strong Female Characters

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kuwisdelu

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Did I say there had to be only one? But some stories...like Kuwi said. FP, MMC. Like my guy in the books in my sig. He's...ok not the most well adjusted guy on the planet when it comes to women (he learns through the series :D Lawks, now THAT was fun to write!) but while he knows that the women he meets talk to each other about things other than him (a blow for his ego, bless), he doesn't necessarily witness it, so...??? Yet every woman in there bests him in some way or another. Smarter than him, braver than him, whatever. Does that make it a Not Good Book? Because I've haven't shoehorned in something that doesn't fit?

Heh, in my current work-in-progress, the three main characters who aren't the narrator are all girls. They're primarily concerned mostly over issues with their families. My narrator? He's mostly concerned with the girls. (He has White Knight Syndrome, and eventually has to learn that you can't actually save other people from their own problems.)
 

areteus

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I agree that a strong female character is no different to a strong male character. This does not mean that the strong female character has to be an action hero with breasts... it means that as much care and consideration should go into their background and emotions and motives as any other character...

With that in mind, I think a strong female character is a believable one with conversation that goes beyond what stereotypes assume women are into. And yes, 'getting the guy' should not be their one and only goal.

As a man, I of course will have problems with 'getting into the head' of a real woman. This is why I take care to observe the women I know and pick up on their quirks and characteristics to use in writing. Many of the women I know can be considered strong women in my opinion not because they passed any test (though some of them would do... and it is a worthwhile thing to start a discussion over or to get an idea of your character balance) but because they are aware of what they want and are proactive about going about achieving it and they do it in many different ways.
 

kuwisdelu

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Are they girls, or young women, or women?

I ask that because I'm re-reading some of Sayer's Lord Whimsey books where anyone under 30 and unmarried is considered a girl. (Whereas young men in that same demographic are just men.)

Hopefully, we've progressed beyond that point by today.

Well, they're 12 in one timeline, and 15 in the other.

That said, I'm 23 and consider myself a "boy," so I consider most females my age "girls," too.

Socially, at least. Professionally, I'd consider myself a young man and females my age young women.
 

Buffysquirrel

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Ripley is an aberration because "she" was written as a man. The character was originally supposed to be male (sort of like Samus in Metroid - no one decided she was female until they needed to take the space suit off)

Sure. But she never does or says anything a woman couldn't say or do.
 

Chasing the Horizon

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Hmm. So is that Bechdell test thing assuming that a conversation between two women about a man will have something to do with romance? I've never understood that test because I've never understood how my all-female assassin team talking about the best way to kill their male target makes my book any less feminist (the book passes the test anyway with other scenes). But if the test itself is making sexist assumptions, then it would explain why it seems disconnected from my books.
 

Kittens Starburst

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Do you have more than one female character?
Do they talk to each other?
About men?
Actually, I don't entirely get this and seem to be the only one who doesn't. Why do the three things count separately? I read it as 'do your female characters talk together about things other than men?' Decent enough test, though I'd add '/their children's minor achievements' after 'men'.

But are these questions actually to be taken separately? :Huh: So if you only have one female character, your WIP passes/fails the test? *Feeling a bit thick here.* Why does it matter whether your female characters talk to each other rather than talking only to men? Can they actually fail a test purely on the first two questions? Seems harsh. I mean, I get that women can't talk together about men unless there's more than one woman present and that they must open their mouths in order to speak, but how come a story can't (?)fail/pass(?) if one female character is blethering man-woe stuff to her male friend for the entire story?

OK, my WIP has three female characters (it's set mainly in a workplace in a patriarchal society where women are discouraged from working, or else there would no doubt be more women taking part). Two women talk to each other - and, yes, it's mainly about their mutual male and about things I consider horribly stereotypically female (frying pans, darning socks, making teacakes, that sort of thing - this limited conversation is the result of patriarchal society-incuced brain mush). The third woman associates with men and women, former colleagues whom she has formed an underground movement with. They talk mostly about a planned uprising and about creating a better world. She's the saviour of the story, though she isn't the MC. So does my WIP pass the Bechdel test? Thing is, I didn't make my saviour character female to make a 'strong woman' point. I based her on Emma Goldman, who was undoubtedly a strong person due to her tenacious individualism and her care of others.

I'm fascinated by the way our roles are limited by the imposition of gender expectations, but I really think gender is mostly artificial. When I hear the question 'What makes a strong woman?', I think 'What makes a strong man? What makes a strong human being?' A strong woman, to me, is someone who doesn't conform to the gender role assigned to her simply because it has been assigned. She does what she wants to do. If it's raising babies or kicking ass, let it be because that's her true inclination. Otherwise, she can stick two fingers up and do something entirely different.
 

AshleyEpidemic

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I find strong female characters often get criticized as being manly. I mean this in the sense that many strong female characters get that characteristic of strong by exhibiting characteristics associated with males. For some reason, something like restraining visible emotion is considered male, rather than human.

When I think of strong, I think of someone or something that is able to endure. Whether it is enduring physical strain, emotional strain, or mental strain. If whatever started the process comes out whole, even if they had to be broken down and reconfigured, it is strong.

Personally, I don't like describing characters as strong, but I do it. Many times when a character is strong, there are more descriptive traits they are exhibiting that come together to make a character strong. The smaller traits are more interesting and informative.

A couple female characters from the screen I view as strong are Ripley (as many people have already mentioned, but why'd she go back for the cat?) and Olivia Dunham from Fringe.
 

Kittens Starburst

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A couple female characters from the screen I view as strong are Ripley (as many people have already mentioned, but why'd she go back for the cat?) and Olivia Dunham from Fringe.

I've never seen Alien, but I'd be thoroughly disgusted if she didn't go back to save a cat.
 

kuwisdelu

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Hmm. So is that Bechdell test thing assuming that a conversation between two women about a man will have something to do with romance? I've never understood that test because I've never understood how my all-female assassin team talking about the best way to kill their male target makes my book any less feminist (the book passes the test anyway with other scenes). But if the test itself is making sexist assumptions, then it would explain why it seems disconnected from my books.

I would just count that as "talking about work" rather than talking about a man.

It's not like, for example, they're all talking about their fathers.

Which reminds me of how I've been accused of being sexist or misogynistic in my writing a few times in the past. The last time was a couple months ago when a female classmate commented "why do all of your female characters have daddy issues!" Well... I write what I know, and it so happens the two female friends I based the characters off in those stories, well, do have father issues. *shrug*

And my males tend to have codependency issues. Oh well.

Not that I think you are doing that--I don't because I can tell from your post history that you don't--but other do.

The tricky thing is those ages — including mine — where I wouldn't like other people regarding me as a "boy" or a "girl" rather than a "young man" or "young woman", but still have a difficult time thinking of myself as anything other than a "boy" or a "girl."
 

Mr Flibble

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A strong woman, to me, is someone who doesn't conform to the gender role assigned to her simply because it has been assigned. She does what she wants to do. If it's raising babies or kicking ass, let it be because that's her true inclination. Otherwise, she can stick two fingers up and do something entirely different.

Now that I could get behind.

No.

The test has nothing to do with romance.

But it's a great indicator on what society thinks important. Men are considered more important in our white, straight, western society, so all the movies reflect that. Mo, a character in Bechdel's comic strip, wanted more than that.
But, as has been seen in this thread, it is a million miles from being an indicator of a story that is good to women, rather than one that isn't. Too basic, too easy to get around, too limiting so that it doesn't include characters/films that ARE good representations and includes films/books that are...not. It's a great starting point, but that's about it.

We need a new test.
 

Kittens Starburst

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They don't count separately.

Use "AND" not "OR" between the conditions.

Two or more named women characters who talk about something other than a man.

Ah, that's what I thought at first, then got myself all confused.

I still don't know if my WIP passes the test. I have two women yapping on about their respective boyfriend/son - but that's a deliberate stereotype. Meanwhile, my third woman is a non-kickass human being who saves her small patch of the world.
 

Mr Flibble

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I'm with this. Male or female. Save the cat.


You should read the book (Save the Cat)....excellent advice, for screenwriters but applies to fiction. All the men I am fond of in my life would have gone back to save the cat. Men do that stuff too - it's not being male or female, it's being a cat person, or not. Or you know, being human.

ETA Just asked husband - he says he'd save the cat over some of the humans...and deffo over the android.
 

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I have the 'first person male narrator' problem usually because I like writing those narrators. This is possibly tied up with my own issues. Eh.
 

Buffysquirrel

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Well, we could use the test I ended up applying in slush when I just got sick to death of the constant reappearance of the word 'whore'. Any story that used that word got rejected out of hand.
 

kuwisdelu

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Fortunately, my avatar passes the test. Yay! I'm happy.

ETA: Now that I think about it, it's kind of hilarious how many anime aimed at young men pass the test.
 

Mr Flibble

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And how many pass the test of great female character, period?

We still need a new test. One that focuses on characters and how they are portrayed rather than something arbitrary.

And surely how they are portrayed is part of the whole question of the OP?

So, to get back to that - I care if the women in the book are a: there if it is feasible for the book b: not portrayed in a misogynistic manner c: they have their own goals, (depending on the genre, this may or may not involve a man. If it DOES involve a man, they should try not to be a doormat etc... or if they are, they should grow past that in the book. Think Once Were Warriors). They should be positive portrayals, positive (or negative, hey women get to be evil too!) influences on the plot, not furniture.
 

AshleyEpidemic

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I've never seen Alien, but I'd be thoroughly disgusted if she didn't go back to save a cat.

I love cats, but if I am being chased by a creature that just killed my entire crew I am not going back for a cat. If the kitty is on my way great. I can't enjoy the cat if I'm dead. This is why I trained my cat to come when called.
 

kuwisdelu

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And how many pass the test of great female character, period?

If that was aimed at this:

ETA: Now that I think about it, it's kind of hilarious how many anime aimed at young men pass the test.

then the answer is "much fewer."

My avatar still passes, though. :D

ETA: Although I suppose it depends what you look for in a good character... considering how many anime aimed at young men have no male characters at all.

If it DOES involve a man, they should try not to be a doormat etc...).

The woman or the man? My male characters are kind of doormats....
 

Mr Flibble

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If that was aimed at this:



then the answer is "much fewer."

I was thinking fiction in general. I know just about squat about anime.
The woman or the man? My male characters are kind of doormats....

:D

If you have a balance, then sure, why not? I can think of at least one SFF author who writes very passive, weak willed MMCs. They annoy me too. As long as they stand up for themselves at some point...
 

Mr Flibble

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So very sad that adding female characters is such a chore.

All my stories will focus on men. White straight men. Because we know they can talk about anything they like and no one will angst about that.


Who said that? *goes back to check*

No one said that. Actually a lot of people said the opposite...
 
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