The Old Neverending PublishAmerica Thread (Publish America)

Uncarved · Apr 4, 2005

Sher2 said:
Tina, you are wicked. Of course, you can get away with it -- you have a sword.

Me, I want to see three wet spots on the floor of that townhouse in Poz, where the Wicked Witch and her bumbling minions have melted into their shoes. I get to throw the first bucket of water, unless the girl with the sword objects.

Anyone that can turn them to stone, a bubbly pool of scum, or little bits of sharkbait I will step aside for.

AnneMarble · Apr 4, 2005

Fiction Editing versus Nonfiction Editing

Susan Gable said:
And as Lola pointed out, if we're talking about fiction, a college professor might be able to edit it for some stuff, but not everything that a quality fiction edit entails.

Yup. Fiction editing is a completely different bird. (Uhm, tweet?)

:Lecture:

Warning: This post mentions R*ck*ds, so don't read if that subject raises your blood pressure...

I never truly understood how different until I encountered a thread on the SF/fantasy writing newsgroup, rec.arts.sf.composition. The gist of it was that a guy who self-published the SF novel he and his teen-aged son wrote together got into the mutha of all flamewars. He had plenty of experience in writing nonfiction and actually had published some books on using the Mac (similar to the stuff I was working on at that time). But it didn't translate into fiction writing. His novel didn't flow and had problems in logic, overuse of "was," etc., etc. Oh, as far as I remember, the spelling and the grammar were great. Clearly this was someone who could write nonfiction. But he couldn't accept that writing and editing fiction were different than writing and editing a computer book. (Been there, done that, got the coffee mugs of a now defunct company...)

The related flamewar was so notorious that people refer to the author who posted as G*ne St*nb*rg and to the book as R*ck*ds, just in case he's searching... The thread starts off slowly enough but really takes off when he gets snarky with Patricia Wrede.

He also got on the bad case of, among others, James Macdonald and Theresa Nielsen Hadyen. And Mary Gentle. And Lawrence Watt-Evans. And Ann Crispin. And Brenda Clough.

And while the arguments from he-who-must-not-be-named were annoying, the thread itself proved to be truly informative. I learned a lot about line editing and critiques and publishing. OK, sometimes it was simply... interesting to watch. Like a trainwreck or an Ed Wood movie...
:popcorn:

If you dare learn more, here is the Google Groups version of the thread from hell. Warning: This makes this thread look like a novella.

http://tinyurl.com/4sunq

The monster version of the URL is:
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.arts.sf.composition/browse_frm/thread/40e887df8b2f20ea/98ce3c74dad8227a?tvc=1&q=group:rec.arts.sf.composition+insubject:Great+insubject:new+insubject:sci-fi+insubject:novel#98ce3c74dad8227a

Deleted member 42 · Apr 4, 2005

AnneMarble said:
Yup. Fiction editing is a completely different bird.

Absolutely. I'll typeset or proof fiction or poetry, but I'm not a fiction editor--they really and truly are a breed apart, and I'd even go a step farther and say a fiction editor needs to really understand the particular kind or genre of fiction that's being edited, as well as being familiar with editing fiction in general.

And I am not now, nor was I previously, casting aspersions on academics. I'm just saying a graduate degree, even in English, doesn't confer native skill or the proper training and experience to edit, particularly in the case of fiction. Some of my best friends are academics

The editors wanted ads I've seen from PA are targeted towards undergraduates who are close to finishing or are fresh out of school. They're not equipped to genuinely edit anything, and of course, PA doesn't really want them to be equipped, or experienced, editors because they'll realize they're working for a less than genuine publisher all the sooner.

I suspect that the "editors" have to make a page quota as well--and I'd be willing to bet they're paid less than adequately. I've noticed that the headers from editorial staff reveal a number of different IPs, which makes me suspect there must be a fair number working remotely.

reph · Apr 4, 2005

ZaZ said:
For the record, we did sleep together and it was hot. I can't believe you don't remember that steamy igloo north of Saskatoon, eh?

Poor writerjenn! She thought she was only having a strange dream about a friendly walrus.

lindylou45 · Apr 4, 2005

underthecity said:
On another note, does anyone have a guess as to how many people actually work at PA, given the evidence from the emails and such? I mean besides the editors, could anyone list the employees we know of and what they do? I'm curious to see what kind of staff they think can handle a workload of 11,000+ authors.

underthecity

Well, in response to the MDAG they indicated they were increasing their employees from 30 to 65 I believe, but they were moving into offices that would house 100 employees. Now, I have no idea if they actually have that many employees, it seems the number of their employees changes about as often as their number of authors. :Shrug:

lindylou45 · Apr 4, 2005

changling said:
I apologize for my spelling error in the heat of typing.

We all make little spelling errors in the heat of typing. If we got kicked out of here for spelling errors, well, I would have been gone a long time ago.
:Hug2:

ByGrace · Apr 4, 2005

I spoke by phone with another concerned author today. She was wondering what would happen if Publish America went out of business. Would contracts still be held prisoner for seven years, or as it is in the case of some for the life of the copyright? Or would the rights be reverted back to the authors? Isn't it true that the authors own their copyrights? But if there is a contract and PA disolves, goes bankrupt, whatever, what happens as far as contracts, copyrights, and rights for the authors?

lindylou45 · Apr 4, 2005

Since I'm rather new here, would someone please answer the following questions so I don't have to go back and search through a gazillion posts.

:welcome:

Crystal Rivers.

Who are the "Big 3" that you're trying to bring down? (I know PA is one. I'm not that "stipid.")

The "Big 3" are the principle partners of PA - Willem Meiners, Larry Clopper and Miranda Prather. We may have to change that to the "Big 4" as Janet Morrissey's name has now been added as general partner.

Who prints PA's books?

Lightning Source, Inc. (LSI)

I'm so excited, I actually knew something!

James D. Macdonald · Apr 4, 2005

Jaws has already answered "It depends" (and in a bit I'll go search for his post), but one thing to keep in mind is this:

Copyright and publishing rights are two different things.

You can have the copyright for the rest of your life, but if you've sold the right to publish the work in book form, that right belongs to someone else until it reverts to you (in whatever manner is specified in the contract, or is determined by a court).

Some years ago, when Commonwealth went out of business (actually, they just vanished one day), the owner of the building they'd been in took their assets to pay back rent and sold 'em. Their assets included books, manuscripts, and publishing rights.

Go over to http://www.sfwa.org/beware to read up on the whole mess.

And while you're at it, get a copy of Ten Percent of Nothing, so you can find out what's going to happen next.

Sher2 · Apr 4, 2005

lindylou45 said:
The "Big 3" are the principle partners of PA - Willem Meiners, Larry Clopper and Miranda Prather. We may have to change that to the "Big 4" as Janet Morrissey's name has now been added as general partner.

Jessica Lewis's name is now showing up on amended contracts as a general partner, too. Five and counting?

lindylou45 · Apr 4, 2005

Well, I didn't read ahead so I didn't see that the questions had been answered, but I'm not deleting my post because I actually knew something. So there! :wag:

lindylou45 · Apr 4, 2005

Sher2 said:
Jessica Lewis's name is now showing up on amended contracts as a general partner, too. Five and counting?

Good Lord, are they just giving away partnerships? She used to be the receptionist! :Wha:

Ed Williams · Apr 4, 2005

I'll second Uncle Jim on recommending...

....that everyone obtain and read "Ten Percent of Nothing." If y'all want a book that's a blueprint on how literary scams operate (and why they ultimately get tripped up in the end), you owe it to yourselves to read this book. You can take the entire history of the Deering scam, compare it with what's going on at PA, and see a lot of interesting similiarities. I even believe that you can ascertain where PA is in the "literary scam life cycle" just by reading this book.

On a completely different note - Kev, if you and ZaZ are having all this fun, I insist on being y'alls chaperone. Y'all need someone of sterling character and discernment to help guide you, someone who has never gazed lustfully at a woman in his entire life, and someone who knows where you can get a fifty broken into ones really quickly!

Saint Ed

Uncarved · Apr 4, 2005

If you're a saint then I'm Mother Teresa.

Sher2 · Apr 4, 2005

tinasamuels said:
Anyone that can turn them to stone, a bubbly pool of scum, or little bits of sharkbait I will step aside for.

Well, I do have some ruby slippers -- which I could be persuaded to trade for a good sword.

Actually, I think walking in the front door with a deputy and hollering "Boo! Search Warrant!" would probably do the trick.

Renee · Apr 4, 2005

LOL....Ed...I don't believe it!

Sher2 · Apr 4, 2005

Ed Williams:On a completely different note - Kev said:
http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/engel/angel-smiley-027.gif[/img]

Hmmmm. Maybe you are and maybe you aren't. I think you thieved that Little Angel smilie from me, though, and I want it back!

Literary Lola · Apr 4, 2005

ByGrace said:
I spoke by phone with another concerned author today. She was wondering what would happen if Publish America went out of business.

BWAHAHAHA!! Why we'd all invert our bellybuttons and dance nekkid on the freeways. After that we'd invade Frederick wearing plastic helicopter beanies singing "Ding Dong The Witch Is Dead" at the top of our lungs.

Sorry, I have absolutely nothing of value to add.

writerjenn · Apr 4, 2005

Ed Williams said:
.... "Willem Meiners is a publishing genius,"

Had to go back and re-read that one...Not sure where I'll ever see it again.

Jenn

victoriastrauss · Apr 4, 2005

ByGrace said:
I spoke by phone with another concerned author today. She was wondering what would happen if Publish America went out of business. Would contracts still be held prisoner for seven years, or as it is in the case of some for the life of the copyright? Or would the rights be reverted back to the authors?

I can tell you what happened with Press-Tige, a vanity publisher that went into Chapter 7 bankruptcy (Chapter 7 is liquidation of the business; Chapter 11 is reorganization).

There was a provision in the Press-Tige contract that in the event of bankruptcy, rights would immediately revert back to the authors. In fact, a provision like this may not mean anything, because the courts may consider publishing contracts to be assets that could be used to satisfy creditors. It doesn't matter if the contracts are of dubious value (as they'll usually be with a vanity publisher, because of the lack of editorial screening)--they are still going to get tied up in the disposition of the case. With Press-Tige, the situation was complicated by the fact that there was fraud involved in the bankruptcy filing.

Ultimately the bankruptcy trustee did release rights back to the authors, having determined that the contracts were of no value to the estate; but it took more than a year for that to happen.

This is why Jaws says "it depends": there are many variables involved, including the kind of bankruptcy and the speed with which the case proceeds through the courts--and of course, whether the business goes into bankruptcy at all; the PA principals could simply pull up stakes and vanish, like the owner of Commonwealth Publishing. Even if that happened, though, I'd think there would have to be some sort of court order returning rights to authors.

So I think that just about the only thing PA authors CAN count on if PA goes under is a headache.

- Victoria

lindylou45 · Apr 4, 2005

Ed Williams Saint Ed [img said:
http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/engel/angel-smiley-027.gif[/img]

Sorry, Ed. Gods cannot be Saints. You are either the God of Pod or you are Saint Ed. You cannot be both. You must choose immediately and there will be no do overs allowed.

I will expect your apology for so flagrantly displaying your godly/saintliness! (Is that a word)? :poke:

akaa1a · Apr 4, 2005

"In fact, a provision like this may not mean anything, because the courts may consider publishing contracts to be assets that could be used to satisfy creditors."

Not a problem In PA's case...since no one sells books to any one but themselves, the assets dry up as soon as the authors find out PA is t*ts up and they want their rights back!.....(angry crowd noise like in Frankenstein)

NOW, if there were books in stores as inventory then....

Patricia · Apr 4, 2005

T42 said:
This will be my last post at AW and I wanted to thank all of you for being here and giving me a place to vent about PA and a place to laugh and make friends. I wish everyone the best with their writing and with the fight against PA. You all have been the source of my sanity and I have found some true friendships.

Thank you so much!
ONE LAST TIME.....PublishAmerica Sucks!

You're joking, right?!

Ken Schneider · Apr 4, 2005

Susan Gable said:
I think the fact that you had someone else edit it for you speaks to your professionalism as well as the fact that PA is guilty as charged of not editing.

Susan, Like all writers, I edit my work, then have A trained professional check and fix any problems they find.

I send my work out in the best possible condition before a agent or publisher sees it.
I don't know what else I can tell you.

If you say P.A. doesn't edit, I'm fine with that. That doesn't, and shouldn't reflect on a work that has an author behind it who cares about the end product.

Ken

Patricia · Apr 4, 2005

Sassenach said:
Wonder if they'll have the nerve to take any credit for her success?

You can count on it! They will probably put her on the testimonial page.

The Old Neverending PublishAmerica Thread (Publish America)

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