Learn Writing with Uncle Jim, Volume 2

James D. Macdonald said:

I can't think of any reason why not, but why would you want to? Purely as a learning experience in how to set up and format a Lulu book?

If you have any intention of ever publishing anything ever again under the same name, having this out there won't help you.

But other than that -- it doesn't infringe on Atlanta Nights that I can see.

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It hadn't occurred to me that it might be detrimental to the success of other works. I did come up with a good pseudonym: Sue Doenimm. (I sure hope no one else has used that name). I thought it would be fun to have; there are actually some parts that are pretty funny.

I guess I will mull it over a bit, and if I have the extra time it might be fun to do.

Thank you very much!

Quick question: How do you stop your stories from being the same thing over and over again? It just feels like mine are. I know the obvious answer is to change them. However, I just can't or seem to do it the right way or something. It just feels like I'm writing the exact same thing over and over. Maybe that's why I'm bored by the story that I have right now. Because it feels like I've written it before. I don't mind writing something with the same theme or general plot line or whatever. But I just feel like I'm writing the same thing over and over, even some of the same actual lines. Advice on what I should do?

Even some of the same lines?

O, dear.

Take a couple of months off and read a ton of novels. See a movie a day.

Don't just pick genres you already know and like. Be eclectic.

Then write something new in a genre you don't generally write in. Perhaps use the Evil Overlord plot generator, with the Murphy's Laws of Combat complication.

Best of luck.

(On the other hand, some famous writers have made careers out of essentially writing the same book over and over and over again....)

James D. Macdonald said:

Then write something new in a genre you don't generally write in. Perhaps use the Evil Overlord plot generator, with the Murphy's Laws of Combat complication.

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I had to look it up.

I'm glad I did.

James D. Macdonald said:

Even some of the same lines?

O, dear.

Take a couple of months off and read a ton of novels. See a movie a day.

Don't just pick genres you already know and like. Be eclectic.

Then write something new in a genre you don't generally write in. Perhaps use the Evil Overlord plot generator, with the Murphy's Laws of Combat complication.

Best of luck.

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James D. Macdonald said:

(On the other hand, some famous writers have made careers out of essentially writing the same book over and over and over again....)

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I might try that idea.

Do you think maybe if I look at writing prompts(including but not limited to plot generators and flash fiction prompts) it might help? I used to do that before. However, I know some people kind of have different views on plot generators. So, I stopped trying to use them so much. However, but now I find myself getting stuck more often and having the same or very similar plots. So, would it be best, for me at least, to ignore that one particular piece of advice and go back to using them?

bearilou said:

I had to look it up.

I'm glad I did.

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Oh, yeah. That one is funny.

Yes, Murphy's laws of combat was funny. It was also thought-provoking.

Well....I've pretty much come to the conclusion that I don't think I have the skill set (yet) to write the story that I was trying to write. I kind of figured that may have been the case for a while but I wasn't sure. Either way, at least I know. I might try and finish it for the simple sake of saying I finished it but I don't know.

Silver-Midnight said:

I might try and finish it for the simple sake of saying I finished it but I don't know.

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Do this. It's the only way you'll know if you can do it, and if you can't, it's the only way you'll know in what ways you can't do it (yet). That will tell you what you need to work on.

Chris P said:

Do this. It's the only way you'll know if you can do it, and if you can't, it's the only way you'll know in what ways you can't do it (yet). That will tell you what you need to work on.

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I want to. I think it will help me grown as a writer (somehow; I don't know how exactly. But I'd like to think this wasn't all a big waste of time and/or effort). However, my characters are kind of just moving about, probably aren't all that fleshed out or interesting and are very one-dimensional as well, and plot is definitely taking it's time to unravel a bit. So, I want to finish it, maybe that will help me out more than hurt, even though it's highly frustrating right now (like extremely frustrating). Because honestly, despite the fact that I've been writing for a few years, including fan fiction years, I feel like I have no skill set, like none whatsoever.

If you don't finish this book, when and how will you learn to finish a book?

James D. Macdonald said:

If you don't finish this book, when and how will you learn to finish a book?

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That's something I have to agree with.

Uncle Jim,

I've been here a lot. Most of the time probably surrounding the same problem/question/issue. Why do you think I overcomplicate writing for myself so much? Or at least why do you think I overcomplicate it for myself so much now? Before when I was writing little 2K - 5k short stories or fan fiction(one or two fan fics that were 13K), yes, I freaked out about my writing, I did delete my work, and yes, it was hard for me to get words on the page, but now, it's progressively worse. I mean I don't like anything I do. Before, I at least liked it when I posted, even if I hated it afterward. Yes, my stories may have had some similarities, in theme or tone(and/or possible events) or what have you but they were still different and it was fun and all of that. No, my writing wasn't great but I enjoyed it. Why do you think now I overanalyze everything I write, and/or I overanalyze everything related to writing? Is it just jitters? Maybe I just seek validation that I'm a good writer or at least a suitable writer, and now that I'm not really showing my work to people I don't get that little reminder of "Hey, someone actually doesn't think you suck at this; keep going"? Perfectionism? (Which is partly similar to the second guess).

I mean I guess I wasn't bad at the "genre" I wrote before but now, now, I don't know. I haven't posted anything really in what I write now. Maybe one or two stories but nothing serious.

I know it's wrong to constantly seek validation, especially when it comes to writing. But do you think that maybe I'm still wanting it, well, to the point that it's affecting my writing (I either write poorly or I don't write at all)?

I know it's okay to suck. I'm fine with that. But I also just like being told sometimes that I'm not crazy, and that this isn't something futile, that I'm actually good at it. I don't have to be the best, I don't have to "win website/fan fiction awards" or whatever. I just want to be told that I'm a good writer. I'd even settle for decent.

I know I should probably be the one to tell myself that. But I doubt I have the confidence in myself to do so.

Silver
I'm in the same boat you are. What I'm slogging through now is something I wouldn't want to show my mother. But if I don't work through to the end and then polish I will never have anything ever to show off. I'm concentrating right now on getting that page a day down on paper. It may never be good enough to be shown off. But if I don't slog now I'll wonder for the rest of my life if it might have been good enough to be shown off.

Silver, what changed between then and now? Is it the genre? The length of the work? What you hope to do with it?

You may be one of the people who writes short stories. It happens. Maybe the change in genre is what's doing you in, like making a lefty write right-handed.

I don't know. Perhaps if you wrote a quick fan-fic, and posted it under some other name to one of the fan fiction sites it would help.

I'm not a psychologist. I can help you find how to write, but never why.

Silver-Midnight said:

I just want to be told that I'm a good writer. I'd even settle for decent.

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I think pretty much everyone likes to be told that they're good at the thing they like to do, spend lots of time doing etc. It feels good.

That said, it seems like one of the most useful skills a writer can develop is the ability to continue to write when nobody is telling you that or people are telling you the opposite. With very few exceptions, every book sitting on the shelf in the bookstore is written by someone who has been told over and over that they were not good, or even decent. And that's just what other people say. We all know about the things we say to ourselves.

If you're writing the same story over and over, make it better each time.

Just keep writing.

Silver-Midnight said:

I know it's wrong to constantly seek validation, especially when it comes to writing. But do you think that maybe I'm still wanting it, well, to the point that it's affecting my writing (I either write poorly or I don't write at all)?

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Silver,

I feel you so much on this. I'm going through it right now.

I wish there was some magic button I could push that would reset my self-consciousness and self-doubt to neutral and get back to writing. Most of a time, it's a struggle to manually push it there.

I have to wonder if part of it is all tangled up in the addiction of insta!feedback one usually gets from writing and posting fanfiction. When writing fanfiction (at least for me) it was taking off all the controls and locks and just writing for the love of it. Within the narrow confines of a pre-determined canon, you could do so much.

When I transitioned from fanfiction to writing original stuff, suddenly I felt like I was locked down. Now I had to worry about all the things. I didn't have the stable base of a pre-existing canon world. Or pre-existing characters. It is all me. It is all on me.

And I occasionally get overwhelmed by it. I feel naked. I have no 'crutches' to lean on. It's all me. And since there's the issues of copyright and not putting my original stuff out there to get feedback, something...anything that can give me the fur fluffing the ego needs, it's scary. I feel like I'm shouting in a soundproof room. Muffled and unresponsive.

And I don't have anyone to talk to about it. Sure, I whine to my friends and they (rightly so) bap me on the nose, tell me I'm good and shove me back in front of the monitor to keep writing but it's ... it's not the same.

So I doubt my ability to do this. Every day. Every day I sit down and I'm almost in tears over 'can I even do this?' It was crippling me.

And this is me yesterday, not just last week/last month/last year. Yesterday.

I was so frustrated and tired and scared, I finally decided to do something, Good Gawdikens, anything to get the fingers moving so I didn't have another day wasted with all my self-doubt.

I have gmail so I fired up gdrive, opened a new doc page (triple checked it was set to private) and started writing fanfiction.

But not just any fanfiction. This is the Granddaddy brain dump of all brain dumps. I'm tearing up the canon world, I'm butchering characterizations left, right and center. When I'm done yakking on the page, it won't even be recognizable as fanfiction for a fandom except in the name of the characters and world elements only.

It's irreverent, it's an emotional/psychological mess and it won't be anything I would dare to show the fandom. I'm writing it and deliberately not seeking out fandom validation. No one in their right mind would take my mess and try. It's dreadful in every conceivable way.

I have the safety net of canon, I have the freedom of an original author. I'm weaning myself from fandom interaction and input. And I'm having a hell of a good time doing it.

Where was I going with this? Simply: Even though I'm trotting out every distasteful kink and trope and cliche I can think of, dumping it in the pot with butchered characterizations and mangled canon world information, sprinkling it liberally with the spice Mary Sues and Gary Stus...I read what I wrote yesterday and I can see it is good.

I'm not some sucky dreck-spewer. I am actually telling a good story beneath all the issues I have heaped on it.

This won't be something I try to scrub and sell. Smacks too closely to John Ringo**, and he's a big selling writer that can get away with it.

It's something that I'll pull out every day and write on for no other purpose than because I want to. Not because I have to with all the expectations of wanting to be a 'real writer' and all the (self-inflicted) heavy baggage that can come with that. I want to.

And usually, half way through some half-baked of an idea of a scene, while the mangled characters are doing whatever thing I have them doing, I get glimmers of ideas of what to do on the WiP I'm working on.

I bring up my WiP and I work a while. I work until the self-doubt creeps back in and I flip over to my brain-yak. Work out the issues, get my self confidence back and the over to the WiP to get more done.

Clumsy? Yeah. Procrastination? Eh...depends. I do go back to my WiP to work and perhaps one day I won't need this crutch. Today I do and I think all that matters is whatever tips and tricks I can yank out of my toolbox to get just one sentence further along in my WiP is considered a good day.

And remember that no matter what I write on my WiP, it will be miles above what I'm yakking on the page with my 'fanfiction. And my fanfiction is actually written pretty well, all things considered. Even with all the warts.



** John Ringo. How best to explain this? Go to books to make my flist's heads explode: John Ringo and read the long post written by David Hines. Won't lie to you, this one post has deeply affected me. I read it from time to time as a reminder that not everything we write should be for public consumption, nor does it have to be. That was very freeing for me.

Silver-Midnight said:

I know it's okay to suck. I'm fine with that. But I also just like being told sometimes that I'm not crazy, and that this isn't something futile, that I'm actually good at it. I don't have to be the best, I don't have to "win website/fan fiction awards" or whatever. I just want to be told that I'm a good writer. I'd even settle for decent.

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That really spoke to me. I still feel this way sometimes. What I've learned to do I write through it. This is different for everyone and what works for you will be what works for you. It sounds like you are already processing this, now it's just a matter of finding what works for you. To put it another way, identify your strengths and make them work for you.

I also wonder if there is cycle here between lacking a clear direction in your writing (similar scenes, characters just ambling around, etc) and that makes you think you are a bad writer, which only makes you more critical of your writing. Prompts were mentioned earlier, and I would throw outlines into the mix too. Shoot, for my WIP, I wrote the query letter (didn't send it out, of course) when the book was only about 30K words done. I set out onscreen what the MC wants, what he needs to do to get it, and what happens if he fails. Then I wrote the book around that, and I will end up with a much better book in another 25K words. Maybe you need to break down the project into a series of achievable goals?

James D. Macdonald said:

Silver, what changed between then and now? Is it the genre? The length of the work? What you hope to do with it?

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Well, definitely the genre changed as did the length of the work. Both of those definitely changed. I mean I'm kind of happy that I've found stuff that I like to write and enjoy(well, sometimes). But for whatever is specifically stopping me or making me think like this. I don't know.

You may be one of the people who writes short stories. It happens. Maybe the change in genre is what's doing you in, like making a lefty write right-handed.

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Well, I know I want to write short fiction. Whether that's just short stories or novelettes or whatever else falls under that umbrella, I don't know. But right now, I don't have the want to write a novel. I do want to write something longer than a short story sometimes, mostly due to my plot lines (which kind of fall into Mystery, Thriller, and Suspense as well as some Urban Fantasy and other forms of Fantasy).

I don't know. Perhaps if you wrote a quick fan-fic, and posted it under some other name to one of the fan fiction sites it would help.

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Maybe. I have no idea.

I mean for the longest time I wrote Contemporary Romance or some form of Romance(but not the Romance/genres I write now). Granted, I did read and like Suspense and Thriller and Mystery; however, I didn't think I had the skills to pull anything like that off. I got into the genres I write now because I really couldn't find a plot or one that was interesting or good or what have you; I couldn't figure out what conflicts my characters had. Well, ones that could be resolved over more than 2K words. Also the conflicts I did/do come up with involve personified protagonists.

bearilou said:

Silver,

I feel you so much on this. I'm going through it right now.

I wish there was some magic button I could push that would reset my self-consciousness and self-doubt to neutral and get back to writing. Most of a time, it's a struggle to manually push it there.

I have to wonder if part of it is all tangled up in the addiction of insta!feedback one usually gets from writing and posting fanfiction. When writing fanfiction (at least for me) it was taking off all the controls and locks and just writing for the love of it. Within the narrow confines of a pre-determined canon, you could do so much.

When I transitioned from fanfiction to writing original stuff, suddenly I felt like I was locked down. Now I had to worry about all the things. I didn't have the stable base of a pre-existing canon world. Or pre-existing characters. It is all me. It is all on me.

And I occasionally get overwhelmed by it. I feel naked. I have no 'crutches' to lean on. It's all me. And since there's the issues of copyright and not putting my original stuff out there to get feedback, something...anything that can give me the fur fluffing the ego needs, it's scary. I feel like I'm shouting in a soundproof room. Muffled and unresponsive.

And I don't have anyone to talk to about it. Sure, I whine to my friends and they (rightly so) bap me on the nose, tell me I'm good and shove me back in front of the monitor to keep writing but it's ... it's not the same.

So I doubt my ability to do this. Every day. Every day I sit down and I'm almost in tears over 'can I even do this?' It was crippling me.

And this is me yesterday, not just last week/last month/last year. Yesterday.

I was so frustrated and tired and scared, I finally decided to do something, Good Gawdikens, anything to get the fingers moving so I didn't have another day wasted with all my self-doubt.

I have gmail so I fired up gdrive, opened a new doc page (triple checked it was set to private) and started writing fanfiction.

But not just any fanfiction. This is the Granddaddy brain dump of all brain dumps. I'm tearing up the canon world, I'm butchering characterizations left, right and center. When I'm done yakking on the page, it won't even be recognizable as fanfiction for a fandom except in the name of the characters and world elements only.

It's irreverent, it's an emotional/psychological mess and it won't be anything I would dare to show the fandom. I'm writing it and deliberately not seeking out fandom validation. No one in their right mind would take my mess and try. It's dreadful in every conceivable way.

I have the safety net of canon, I have the freedom of an original author. I'm weaning myself from fandom interaction and input. And I'm having a hell of a good time doing it.

Where was I going with this? Simply: Even though I'm trotting out every distasteful kink and trope and cliche I can think of, dumping it in the pot with butchered characterizations and mangled canon world information, sprinkling it liberally with the spice Mary Sues and Gary Stus...I read what I wrote yesterday and I can see it is good.

I'm not some sucky dreck-spewer. I am actually telling a good story beneath all the issues I have heaped on it.

This won't be something I try to scrub and sell. Smacks too closely to John Ringo**, and he's a big selling writer that can get away with it.

It's something that I'll pull out every day and write on for no other purpose than because I want to. Not because I have to with all the expectations of wanting to be a 'real writer' and all the (self-inflicted) heavy baggage that can come with that. I want to.

And usually, half way through some half-baked of an idea of a scene, while the mangled characters are doing whatever thing I have them doing, I get glimmers of ideas of what to do on the WiP I'm working on.

I bring up my WiP and I work a while. I work until the self-doubt creeps back in and I flip over to my brain-yak. Work out the issues, get my self confidence back and the over to the WiP to get more done.

Clumsy? Yeah. Procrastination? Eh...depends. I do go back to my WiP to work and perhaps one day I won't need this crutch. Today I do and I think all that matters is whatever tips and tricks I can yank out of my toolbox to get just one sentence further along in my WiP is considered a good day.

And remember that no matter what I write on my WiP, it will be miles above what I'm yakking on the page with my 'fanfiction. And my fanfiction is actually written pretty well, all things considered. Even with all the warts.

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bearliou, I could hug you. This basically describes how I feel, except I don't talk to my friends about my writing. They haven't really read it. One has, and she told me that I could write. But no one else really. My friends talk to me about their writing though.

I mean it's so strange. It's like I'm glad I broke down and started writing what I am writing. However, that's mainly when things are "going good" and I'm not ready to yank out my hair. I mean I feel proud of myself. I was brave of enough to at least try something a little harder.

I mean I want to try writing fan fiction or post some original fiction. Maybe if I hear that I am at least somewhat good in those genres, just a little bit. I'd feel more confident. Because I just feel like just no confidence with it.

And I would just approach it like it was fan fiction. However, given the big broohaha that's been happening with fan fiction lately and how I personally feel about P2P fan fiction (I don't hate the idea but the legalities of it are just kind of sketch for me), approaching that way just seems.....off.

I just have this huge sense that I don't know what I'm doing, and I think maybe someone saying I at least make going in the wrong direction fun I'd feel better. I had no earthly idea though.

Maybe I'm just comparing myself to the authors I like way too much....again.

Chris P said:

I also wonder if there is cycle here between lacking a clear direction in your writing (similar scenes, characters just ambling around, etc) and that makes you think you are a bad writer, which only makes you more critical of your writing. Prompts were mentioned earlier, and I would throw outlines into the mix too. Shoot, for my WIP, I wrote the query letter (didn't send it out, of course) when the book was only about 30K words done. I set out onscreen what the MC wants, what he needs to do to get it, and what happens if he fails. Then I wrote the book around that, and I will end up with a much better book in another 25K words. Maybe you need to break down the project into a series of achievable goals?

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Well, the query letter thing is kind of what I do now slightly. I really don't think outlining works for me. I've tried that a few times, and I really didn't like it. So, the plot summary/synopsis or query letter method is the one that works best for me.

James D. Macdonald said:

It's a lovely thing. Nearly unreadable. I'm sure PublishAmerica would offer a contract in a heartbeat.

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May I use your quote on the back cover? (seriously)

Silver-Midnight, NEVER compare yourself to other writers. That way lies madness.

Let others do it, but never do it yourself.

Now, understand that writing a book without a plan is like going into battle without a plan. While no plan survives contact with the enemy, the plan is like a map that keeps your troops moving, acting, reacting, and controlled during the chaos of battle. Without plans battles are just loosely- organized mobs having at one another with whatever's at hand.

Don't call it an outline. That word seems to be an anathema to many writers. Don't use it.

Call it your notes. Call it your plan. Call it your journal or your book diary or your daisy garden or your manure pile. It just doesn't matter. It's your roadmap for where you're going and how to get there.

Plans are supposed to be flexible. Make sure yours is flexible too. Roll with the punches and come back into the work swinging. If you're bogged down, throw a spanner wrench into the works. Surprise your characters. Hell, have a guy with a gun suddenly burst into the scene if all else fails.

Maybe one of your characters is the problem. Kill him (or her).

Maybe your viewpoint is the problem. Change it.

Maybe your scenery is the problem. Move it.

Just remember, the first draft is always crap - but it's also the foundation for the entire house you're building.

Forget about worrying about all this. Just go sit down at your keyboard and bust out another thousand words. Do it RIGHT NOW without even replying here or wasting anymore time.

C.bronco said:

May I use your quote on the back cover? (seriously)

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Go right ahead.

FOTSGreg said:

Silver-Midnight, NEVER compare yourself to other writers. That way lies madness.

Let others do it, but never do it yourself.

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Right on.

Thanks, Jim and Greg.

Don't thank me. Practically everything I know I learned here from Uncle Jim.



Glad I could help in some small way.