The Old Neverending PublishAmerica Thread (Publish America)

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James D. Macdonald

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tab said:
Therein lies why PA and other vanity publishers fill such a crucial niche in the market.

I don't object to self-publishing. It has a place in the vast market of information exchange. I don't even object to vanity publication per se (for all that I think it falls into that vast grey area between a Very Bad Idea and an Outright Scam). What I object to is PublishAmerica's false, misleading, and deceptive advertising.

That advertising sucks in the good books with the bad. I'm positive that hundreds of good books, books that might have been read with enjoyment by thousands, are trapped in seven-year contracts to be read by (at most) the author's mom's bridge club.

The tragedy of PA is that they'll offer a contract to a good book as fast as they'll offer a contract to a bad book, and they'll do as little for one as the other. They put obstacles in the way of distribution that even a self-published book won't have.
 

James D. Macdonald

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needles said:
ETA: Prolly not worth mentioning, but mine's 7.5 X 5.25, 312 pages. The 6.99 tag just struck me as mass-market, but inset assures me it's trade.

The difference between Mass Market and Trade isn't trim size or price; it's what happens to books that don't sell. Trade books are whole-copy returnable. Mass Market books are stripped.
 
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DeadlyAccurate

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James D. Macdonald said:
The tragedy of PA is that they'll offer a contract to a good book as fast as they'll offer a contract to a bad book, and they'll do as little for one as the other. They put obstacles in the way of distribution that even a self-published book won't have.

I've seen several books on PA's site that sound interesting enough that I would love to read them, but since I can't trust the publisher's quality control, I won't purchase any PA books. I hate poorly written books.
 

James D. Macdonald

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DeadlyAccurate said:
I've seen several books on PA's site that sound interesting enough that I would love to read them, but since I can't trust the publisher's quality control, I won't purchase any PA books. I hate poorly written books.

There are bunches which, if I saw 'em in a bookstore, I'd pull off the shelf and skim, and maybe buy.

But I won't be doing that because the books won't be in bookstores. They won't be in bookstores because of the high prices, the short discounts, the non-returnability, the low production values, and PA's bad reputation.
 

Sheryl Nantus

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Ducking and Covering...

http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/7916.htm

Message:
Ray, only trust your own eyes. Here's the real quote, to be found at www.authorsmarket.net:

"The vast, vast majority of SciFi and Fantasy writers are serious, honest, great artists. They have spent tons of time working on their books, just as hard as writers on any other genre. They are positive, resolute, hard-working, earnest folks, who are finding it just as hard as anyone else to break through the barrier put up by the publishing dinosaurs.

But, alas, the SciFi and Fantasy genres have also attracted some of the lesser gods, writers who erroneously believe that SciFi, because it is set in a distant future, does not require believable storylines, or that Fantasy, because it is set in conditions that have never existed, does not need believable every-day characters. Obviously, and fortunately, there are not too many of them, but the ones who are indeed not ashamed to be seen as literary parasites and plagiarists, are usually the loudest, just like the proverbial wheel that needs the most grease. [...]

The vast majority of serious SciFi and Fantasy authors frown at this. They go to the supermarket, open that cheap book, see what these writers got away with, and they feel their frustration rise. "Why were these people published? My own book is at least two levels better." And more often than not they are right."

***********

hey, James!

you a bad boy...

:scared:

further on down in the thread someone comments about how they don't understand how SFWA tolerates these authors...

:cry:

someone may want to pass that bit of info onto SFWA - I'm sure they'll get right on rewriting their membership rules to include all PA authors and dismiss those who participated in "Atlanta Nights"...

:D
 

Ed Williams

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And, of course....

Ray, only trust your own eyes. Here's the real quote, to be found at www.authorsmarket.net:
We all know that www.authorsmarket.net is a bastion of truthfulness...

Uncle Jim, don't take all this too hard. I like knowing you, it's sort of like being friends with a literary version of Jesse James or Robin Hood...

grinning-smiley-002.gif
 

NancyMehl

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Authorsmarket Quote

"The vast, vast majority of SciFi and Fantasy writers are serious, honest, great artists. They have spent tons of time working on their books, just as hard as writers on any other genre. They are positive, resolute, hard-working, earnest folks, who are finding it just as hard as anyone else to break through the barrier put up by the publishing dinosaurs.

But, alas, the SciFi and Fantasy genres have also attracted some of the lesser gods, writers who erroneously believe that SciFi, because it is set in a distant future, does not require believable storylines, or that Fantasy, because it is set in conditions that have never existed, does not need believable every-day characters. Obviously, and fortunately, there are not too many of them, but the ones who are indeed not ashamed to be seen as literary parasites and plagiarists, are usually the loudest, just like the proverbial wheel that needs the most grease. [...]

The vast majority of serious SciFi and Fantasy authors frown at this. They go to the supermarket, open that cheap book, see what these writers got away with, and they feel their frustration rise. "Why were these people published? My own book is at least two levels better." And more often than not they are right."

Isn't this the "revised" version? Wasn't there a nastier commentary published first that was removed after PA received complaints from their own fantasy/sci-fi writers?

If I'm wrong, sorry. If not, it might be interesting to post the original quote. If I remember right, it was much harsher. Does anyone have it?
 

DeadlyAccurate

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From authorsmarket.net:

In order to sell a book, it has to stand out. In order for it to stand out, the author has to stand out. First books are rarely bought because the story catches on. They are bought because there is something about the author that fascinates the buyer. That is why the first people who will buy a book are the author's family and friends. To them, the author is already special. The real challenge, however, is to become also special to people who don't know the author yet.

What the...? Is there any basis in reality for this? I've never picked out a first book based on the author's bio. Unless the author's titles were already recommended by a friend, I don't pay attention to who the author is until I've decided I want the book.

Did Authors Market change their quote?

A second caveat is that science-fiction and fantasy writers have it easier. It's unfair, but such is life. As a rule of thumb, the quality bar for sci-fi and fantasy is a lot lower than for all other fiction. Therefore, beware of published authors who are self-crowned writing experts. When they tell you what to do and not to do in getting your book published, always first ask them what genre they write. If it's sci-fi or fantasy, run. They have no clue about what it is to write real-life stories, and how to find them a home. Unless you are a sci-fi or fantasy author yourself.

ETA: Ah, I see. My quote was from http://www.authorsmarket.net/experts.htm and the other quote was from http://www.authorsmarket.net/youreyes.htm. Boy, they're really angry about Atlanta Nights aren't they?
 
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DaveKuzminski

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Well, it's been a couple days now since my response to Larry's remark about his and PA's honesty and integrity. Strange how I haven't heard one single peep from him or PA now that they've been given the opportunity to prove that they're all about honesty and integrity.

So, I guess maybe that wasn't what Larry meant. Maybe he meant they were almost about honesty and integrity or they're about to commit to a twelve-step program for attaining honesty and integrity.
 

Susan Gable

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>>>In order to sell a book, it has to stand out. In order for it to stand out, the author has to stand out. First books are rarely bought because the story catches on. They are bought because there is something about the author that fascinates the buyer. That is why the first people who will buy a book are the author's family and friends. To them, the author is already special. The real challenge, however, is to become also special to people who don't know the author yet.
>>>>What the...? Is there any basis in reality for this? I've never picked out a first book based on the author's bio. Unless the author's titles were already recommended by a friend, I don't pay attention to who the author is until I've decided I want the book.


In my reality/experience, there is no basis for this statement. There is honestly nothing about me that "stands out." Harlequin didn't know much about me when they bought my first book - and when I asked my editor what made her buy it, she answered, "Harley." That was my heroine. It was the characters and story that made the ms something they wanted to buy. It had absolutely nothing to do with me personally.

The first people who will buy a PA book (copies of it, not the ms) of course are the family/friends, because that's who get hit up first, as per PA training. Again, this statement (that you have to "become special" as a person to readers before they will buy your book) is insane and points to the model of selling only a few books. How in the world could a new author become "special" to enough readers around the country to sell enough books?? Oh, wait, that's right, they can't and that's why the big publishers don't buy new authors. <shaking head>

Susan G.
 
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keltora

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NancyMehl said:
Isn't this the "revised" version? Wasn't there a nastier commentary published first that was removed after PA received complaints from their own fantasy/sci-fi writers?

If I'm wrong, sorry. If not, it might be interesting to post the original quote. If I remember right, it was much harsher. Does anyone have it?

Yeah, that is not the original quote. PA has changed it in order to say, "hey, we didn't say what they think we said..." in an effort to cover their own a**es.

Because there are a lot of PA authors who write f/sf it's as much an insult to them as to SFWA.

Laura J. Underwood (A Little Bit of Travis Tea--My ATLANTA NIGHTS can poke out your EYE OF ARGON any day!)

DRAGON'S TONGUE forthcoming from Meisha Merlin in the Summer of 2006. Preview a copy at http://www.embiid.net.

 

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DeadlyAccurate said:
What the...? Is there any basis in reality for this? I've never picked out a first book based on the author's bio. Unless the author's titles were already recommended by a friend, I don't pay attention to who the author is until I've decided I want the book.

Did Authors Market change their quote?
Authorsmarket.net has changed their text so many times that it's impossible to keep up.

Re: "the first people who buy an author's book are his family and friends"

I gave my family and friends copies of the book. Copies the publisher gave to me. Others who knew me may have bought copies, but they were a miniscule fraction of sales. If not a single copy of my book had been sold to people who knew me, it still would have made back its advance. The key to success is selling books to people you don't know -- and only a vanity press can make a profit otherwise.

People buy fiction because of the story.

You'd think the PA authors would compare their own experience buying books with how PA says people buy books.
 
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tab

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I agree. The other fold of that tragedy is the plain fact that many would be authors simply do not research the market and the realities of being a writer, which is not all glitz and glamour. Grant it some of us had the advantage of being tutored by established writers and editors. However, its not that difficult to pick up a copy of the Writer's Market or touch base with a local writer (not one published by PA). There is just so much misinformation out there. That's why this board and the work of people on this board are such valuable resources.
 

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DeadlyAccurate said:
I've never picked out a first book based on the author's bio. Unless the author's titles were already recommended by a friend, I don't pay attention to who the author is until I've decided I want the book.

The exception to this kind of buyer behavior is non-fiction, particularly scholarly non-fiction, where one does look at the bio of the author (where did they study, where are they now, what else have they published and in what journals).
 

victoriastrauss

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NancyMehl said:
Isn't this the "revised" version? Wasn't there a nastier commentary published first that was removed after PA received complaints from their own fantasy/sci-fi writers?
Yes.

Here 'tis, from my files. Unfortunately they changed it pretty soon after launching the site, due to protest from PA's authors, so the Internet Archive didn't have a chance to cache it, but I made sure to print out a copy. All bolding, punctuation peculiarities, and spelling errors are PA's:

Let's look a little closer at those self-anointed "experts", the ones who call themselves author advocates, or watchdogs. You won't find too many of them, but they are usually loud. Their writing is typically characterized by the use of an overkill of adjectives, and by references to you being a victim of something. Their own book genre is almost always Science-Fiction or Fantasy.

That's why some of them are actually published writers. SciFi and Fantasy are among the easier genres, requiring no believable storylines, and no believable every-day characters. Not the sky is the limit, but outer space, and there everything goes. Ever since great writers such as Asimov and Tolkien pioneered the genre, copycats have stampeded through the open gates.

SciFi and Fantasy abounds with literary parasites and plagiarists. Some writers have built a name for themselves by writing spin-offs of hugely popular movies, such as Star Trek, after all the characters and story parameters had been handed to them on a silver plate by the story owners who licensed the merchandising rights to a publisher. It requires some talent, but not too much, to write such a book. And it definitely calls for modesty if, no surprise there, the book sells. The millions of Star Trek aficionados will read just anything as long as it says Star Trek on the cover.

There are some others who, particularly in the field of Fantasy, rewrite all but everything under the sun that has already been written before. They rummage through books on mythology, steal a character here, borrow a plot line there, throw in a wizzard from King Arthur, and literally loot all the mythologies ever written. They mix it, knead it, call the adventure a Journey or a Quest, and there's their work of Fantasy. And the funny thing is, it is widely accepted among fellow fantasy writers as the right thing to do. They call it a craft. Many make it to the mass market book sector, where Fantasy publishers need a new title every other week or so.

Does this mean there are no honest and original SciFi and Fantasy authors? On the contrary. There are many hardworking writers who do their best to come up with something original. Some make it to the published ranks, others seek acceptance in vain. But you never hear them thumping their chests. True-blooded original writers don't brag. They don't crown themselves.

Now what is wrong with the loudmouths, the ones who looted, leeched, or plagiarized their way to local stardom? What's wrong with them is that they claim a mantle of expertise about writing or being a writer in general that they don't possess. But what's even more wrong is that they love their elite status, of being published, too much. Once they start calling themselves author advocates, beware. Often they only advocate themselves and their status. They have found a spotlight, and the last thing they want is to share it with others.
The rest of it is pretty much the same as what's now on the site.

What's important here, I think, is not just the venom of the original screed, but the context. It's a diatribe aimed not at SF/fantasy writers, but at writers' advocates, many of whom happen to be SF/fantasy writers--and more than that, it's aimed at certain writers' advocates in particular: Ann Crispin (the Star Trek parasite), me (the fantasy plagiarist), and in the second iteration of the site, Dave Kuzminski (the chest-thumping e-book writer).

In all the discussion of Atlanta Nights--a lot of which is casting the hoax as a prank by SF/fantasy writers insulted by a nasty characterization of their genre--this is something that has gotten lost. Atlanta Nights is definitely a funny prank, but it's also a serious response to PA's craven and ongoing efforts to discredit the people who give warnings about its deceptive practices.

- Victoria
 

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When am I going to learn?
Typically, when someone posts the uniform resource locator to a PA message board thread and comments on the ensuing insanity of it all, I ignore it and proceed on my way.
Then, in a moment of weakness, I'll click on one. :Hammer:
 

underthecity

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Gah.

What's extra irritating is knowing that the authors on the PA boards are ONLY going to take PA's word for fact about what the authorsmarket website says NOW, not about what it has said previously. After all, the infocenter response says
only trust your own eyes. Here's the real quote . . .

Those of posting here know what the authorsmarket site said before (thanks in part to Victoria's quote, and thanks in part to the fact that most of us had already seen the page before PA changed it), which was what AN was responding to. Now, the PA authors are going to read the updated authorsmarket page which has toned down the diatrible about scifi/fantasy authors and authors advocates, and not have any real clue as to why the group of authors made AN, unless they do research beyond what PA tells them.

And they probably won't, because PA's word is law: "So we have spoken, so it shall be."

If it came from Infocenter, it must be true. As an aside, it's always just "infocenter." Never a real name, ever. And PA authors never question that. When I communicate with my publisher, I always talk to a person, not a generic "department." Heck, if I wanted to I could talk to the publisher himself on the phone. Can PA authors do that?

underthecity
 

DaveKuzminski

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realitychuck said:
You'd think the PA authors would compare their own experience buying books with how PA says people buy books.

They do. Only problem is they get banned when they speak up on the PA board.

As to PA's habit of signing things always as the Infocenter, I suspect it's based upon a wrong-headed assumption that blame and responsibility can't subsequently be pinned on anyone in particular.
 
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Christine N.

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How long do you think this will last...

Someone had the audacity to point out the difference between Random House editing and what PA calls "editing."

http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/7947.htm

Here's the post, before it disappears...

Message:
While I agree that the author takes responsibility for editing errors, the publisher should bare some of the burden as well. I asked a friend who is published by Random House how that works and he told me the following: First, the author must go over and over his novel. Once he/she has done that, then my friend has professional editors (one for grammar, one for content) to do their thing. Then the Publisher takes over. He advised that the author and publisher should look at this as a team thing, especially when they are "traditional" publishers. When novels with grammatical errors or content issues get published, it not only reflects on the author but the publisher as well. That is one of the reasons there are so many PA bashers out there who claim that PA isn't a "traditional" publisher.

I don't just go by what my fellow PA family members say, I research. And this is what my research has yielded. The facts are facts. Again, some of us are so hyped about being published that we ignore the fact that, PA is the publisher, and we are the people who write the words PA puts out.

I for one am glad to be published by PA; however, based on comments I've heard and editing mistakes I've seen in some of my PA family members' novels, I refuse to totally put my writing future in a Publisher's hands.

We must all cover ourselves until we get to the status of John Grishams and James Pattersons. Until then, we are just another writer striving to become a bankable author.

I know I'll get some heat for this, but again, I do research.

J

J was responding to a post asking who was responsible for the typos in their book.

We might want to warm up a chair for this enlightened soul, for it won't be long until they are banned.

</FONT>
 

Diana Hignutt

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realitychuck said:
You'd think the PA authors would compare their own experience buying books with how PA says people buy books.

Unfortunately, there are a lot of PA authors who would believe PA if they said day was night and night was day. They need to believe what PA says. It validates their own worth. Once again, cult behavior.

WAKE UP PA AUTHORS! (yes, I'm shouting)

diana
 

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Here's another juicy quote from authorsmarket.net:

The real agenda of some of these author advocates is to actually keep you away from their own ranks. They do this by finding fault in every single publisher other than the ones that represent the status-quo, i.e. the top 20 publishers who account for 93 percent of all book sales, one of whose imprints at some time in history they were lucky enough to be accepted by, again, almost exclusively in the SciFi-Fantasy sector.

How could I not agree 100%? I mean, when I decided to become a serious author, I searched the Internet for information on writing, publishing, agents, etc. And there was absolutely nothing available. You guys are keeping it all to yourselves to keep the rest of us out of your elite ranks. Oh, wait. You weren't. You're out there providing free information on what it takes to succeed, helping us learn, offering invaluable assistance into the profession, and warning us to look out for scam artists.

When I sent a query to an agent that then sent me a form acceptance letter, a quick Atlanta Nights-type check (very, very poorly written query from my mother's address that was enthusiastically accepted) and an email to Victoria confirmed my suspicion about the agent. If you guys really wanted to keep the elite ranks truly elite, it wouldn't take much to lead us newbies astray.
 

clintl

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I learned fairly early on as a writer about the scams like vanity presses, phony contests, etc., primarily through markets reports and the efforts of "author advocates," especially those connected to the SF and fantasy genres. You're doing a great service. PA knows it, too, or they wouldn't be using such ridiculous arguments to try to discredit you.
 

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Training authors

tab said:
I agree. The other fold of that tragedy is the plain fact that many would be authors simply do not research the market and the realities of being a writer, which is not all glitz and glamour. Grant it some of us had the advantage of being tutored by established writers and editors. However, its not that difficult to pick up a copy of the Writer's Market or touch base with a local writer (not one published by PA). There is just so much misinformation out there. That's why this board and the work of people on this board are such valuable resources.

You know, I've thought about this before. I've been to one creative writing class* so my experience is limited, but it seems these would be the perfect places to discuss the business of writing. Along with lectures on purple prose, point of view and tense there should be classes on the myths of copyright, proper manuscript formatting, how to find markets and proper manuscript submission. Do these topics ever come up in writing classes or critique groups?


*Which I quit it after the teacher said that the only reason genre works are published is because it allows publishers to pay for the literary works they really want to publish.
 
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