The Old Neverending PublishAmerica Thread (Publish America)

Status
Not open for further replies.

Sheryl Nantus

Holding out for a Superhero...
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 12, 2005
Messages
7,196
Reaction score
1,634
Age
59
Location
Brownsville, Pennsylvania. Or New Babbage, Second
Website
www.sherylnantus.com
Ed Williams said:
1. I guess guerrilla literary desperados use guerrilla spelling and punctuation.

2. Bonnie, nice seeing you here, hope you will post often.

3. Per Frank Weaver's book, I think Frank has definite writing talent, but I can never recall it having an Amazon ranking. Maybe it has, but I've never seen it, and periodically I will look at the most hyped PA books to see how they may be selling.

didn't Mr. Weaver get top billing in the late lamented NYT "list"?

*looks at calendar*

still waiting for my fat royalty check here.

:roll:
 

AnneMarble

Nefarious Ghost Fan
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 12, 2005
Messages
2,922
Reaction score
3,044
Location
MD
Website
gorokandwulf.blogspot.com
clintl said:
It was covered both in the college creative writing course I took (which was taught by a professional SF writer), and at Clarion, which I attended a few years later. But whether those are typical of most classes and workshops, I'm not sure.

I took a Fiction Writing class in college, but we never learned anything about the business side -- except about getting rejection slips. :) I don't remember learning anything about this in the journalism classes, either. At my place of work, we had a chance to take courses on anything from scrapbooking to writing. I was really glad I got a chance to teach a mini-session on avoiding scams. That was fun. :D

On the other hand, most on-line sites that I've visited have lots of information on avoiding scams. Even if they don't have an actual part dedicated to scams, there are lots of knowledgable people ready to pop up and say "Noooo, don't sign that contract, Oskar Munny is a scammer." (Apologies to anyone actually named Oskar Munny.) I'm not sure this is true of all writing sites, though. I've seen some started by people without experience in writing, and they don't have that scam-busting expertise. :(
 

WhisperingBard

Wary...and weary
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 12, 2005
Messages
350
Reaction score
239
Location
In a far-off land of make-believe...
Please don't forget though that it's possible that his book did have a rating for the first three or four months, but lost it,

The point remains the same. PA touts online selling as one of the main outlets for PA books. Yet one of it's best writers can't manage a sale via Amazon in *insert number here* weeks/months.

PA authors, this does not bode well for your books.
 

tab

Dipsomaniac on the floor!
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 23, 2005
Messages
143
Reaction score
53
Location
Houston, Texas
Website
www.apocalypsecow.org
AnneMarble said:
I took a Fiction Writing class in college, but we never learned anything about the business side -- except about getting rejection slips. :) I don't remember learning anything about this in the journalism classes, either. At my place of work, we had a chance to take courses on anything from scrapbooking to writing. I was really glad I got a chance to teach a mini-session on avoiding scams. That was fun. :D

On the other hand, most on-line sites that I've visited have lots of information on avoiding scams. Even if they don't have an actual part dedicated to scams, there are lots of knowledgable people ready to pop up and say "Noooo, don't sign that contract, Oskar Munny is a scammer." (Apologies to anyone actually named Oskar Munny.) I'm not sure this is true of all writing sites, though. I've seen some started by people without experience in writing, and they don't have that scam-busting expertise. :(

Good point. Thats why its important to spread the word to others.
 

clintl

Represent.
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 12, 2005
Messages
7,611
Reaction score
603
Location
Davis, CA
AnneMarble said:
I took a Fiction Writing class in college, but we never learned anything about the business side -- except about getting rejection slips. :)

My class may not have been typical of other creative writing classes at my school for a number of reasons. One, as I said, it was taught by a professional, well-regarded but (at the time) up-and-coming SF writer who had been hired by the university as a remedial English lecturer, and the course was focused on SF and fantasy writing. I think it took him a bit of effort to convince the English Department to allow him to teach the course. He wasn't part of the regular creative writing faculty. Second, he was a former Clarion student, and modeled the structure of the course on Clarion to a certain extent. And the business side does seem to be covered at least a little at Clarion.
 

realitychuck

Hack Writer
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 12, 2005
Messages
207
Reaction score
114
Location
Schenectady (really)
Website
www.sff.net
I got a Master's Degree in writing from SUNY Albany and thus sat in a lot of their writing classes. Like most, there was little talk about marketing. However, they had no particular issues with my science fiction, other than a slight fear from the instructors that they might not be qualified to give advice about a genre they were unfamiliar with.

One professor made this a point when I started attending his workshops. About halfway though, he came up to me and said, "I used to read some SF as a kid. Is Amazing Stories still around?" (At that point, it was.) Later, he was publisher for a fantasy novella that ended up in the best of the year anthology. So I made a convert. :D
 

clintl

Represent.
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 12, 2005
Messages
7,611
Reaction score
603
Location
Davis, CA
At my university, I don't the issue with allowing the course to be taught had as much to do with not being open to genre fiction (there was a regular creative writing faculty member who wrote mystery novels, and another who wrote a SF novel a number of years later). It was more that it wasn't a course that the department had hired my instructor to teach.
 

Ed Williams

Banned
Joined
Feb 12, 2005
Messages
1,079
Reaction score
686
Age
67
Location
Georgia
Website
www.ed-williams.com
Interesting...

...all the positive reviews about "Atlanta Nights" have been taken off of Amazon. I just posted one, it stayed up less than an hour and was taken off. Ah, censorship!
 

Kevin Yarbrough

Will write for peace of mind
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 15, 2005
Messages
1,249
Reaction score
415
Location
Hiding. Try and find me.
James D. Macdonald said:
There are bunches which, if I saw 'em in a bookstore, I'd pull off the shelf and skim, and maybe buy.

But I won't be doing that because the books won't be in bookstores. They won't be in bookstores because of the high prices, the short discounts, the non-returnability, the low production values, and PA's bad reputation.
James, I have a copy of my bok I will send to you for free. You can critique it and let me know what needs to be done with it. I know there are some problems, the book was written over four years ago before I knew about writing in general. If interested let me know.
 

Savannah Blue

None
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 12, 2005
Messages
148
Reaction score
96
AnnMarble said, "Didn't Moranda say something like this in that infamous article where she claimed that bookstore placement doesn't count, and most bookstore sales don't come from browsing? I think that article might be why they stopped letting her talk to reporters."

Hehe, another one of my favorite topics. Maranda Prather said, "It's a common myth that bookstore placement equals sales."

Between her and Clopper, I have a whole notebook full of idiot sayings.
 

Jaws

Apex Predator
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 12, 2005
Messages
582
Reaction score
221
Location
Loitering just offshore on the Silicon Prairie
Website
scrivenerserror.blogspot.com
tab said:
I have to respectfully disagree with the picture you paint of academic writing programs.

Tab, I hope that you have seen/had better experiences than those I have observed at about 15 universities, including three of the purported top five MFA programs. Admittedly, these are perhaps more academically oriented than many MFA programs offered through, say, P&W's voluminous ads (all of them, for example, require GRE and GRE English subject scores). However, the disdain for the author's marketing role comes through clearly in catalogs, in seminar and faculty presentations, and in comments from students. (Note: I'm a refugee from the MLA, and can theorize at the drop of a hat; so I have good enough camouflage to get non-PR-oriented answers.)

If you've got some "better" examples, I'd love to hear about them.
 

Jaws

Apex Predator
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 12, 2005
Messages
582
Reaction score
221
Location
Loitering just offshore on the Silicon Prairie
Website
scrivenerserror.blogspot.com
A General Comment on Evidence

Sorry if this seems like I'm repeating myself, but repeating myself every so often helps the new people overwhelmed by the sheer quantity of information keep from hurting themselves.

:Headbang: Some of the biggest myths floating around the Internet concern use of e-mail as evidence. In no particular order, these include:
:poke: "E-mails can't be used as evidence without getting ahold of the sender's hard drive." Wrong. In modern evidence law, a copy of anything that does not by statute require certification (such as a birth certificate) is as good as the original absent actual independent evidence of alteration or inaccuracy of the copy. That means that printouts of e-mails, with full headers included, are more than sufficient to use as evidence… except, of course, if you're contemplating "creative evidence," in which case I don't want to know about it.
:poke: "E-mail constitutes written notification." Generally, but not always, wrong. If the original contract calls for use of e-mail as written notification, an e-mail will suffice (but never for "registered" notices, as in PA contract versions D1 and later ¶ 30). Under certain circumstances specified by statute, an e-mail is good enough for notice; the prime example is the DMCA, 17 U.S.C. § 512, which allows one to contact an ISP to demand takedown of infringing material. Otherwise, though, if there's no possibility of putting a true signature on it, it's not "written notice." (That is not to say that all written notices must be signed—only that it must be possible to sign them.)
:poke: "E-mail is so informal that it's not very good as evidence." Sometimes this is true; but never assume that it is. This is a case-by-case matter requiring actual legal judgment, not some boneheaded rule of thumb.

This has been a test of the legal commentary system. Had this been actual legal advice, it wouldn't have appeared in a public forum anyway.
 

mdin

The late, the great XThe NavigatorX
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 12, 2005
Messages
2,376
Reaction score
539
Location
Seattle, WA
Website
www.mattdinniman.com
Ed Williams said:
...all the positive reviews about "Atlanta Nights" have been taken off of Amazon. I just posted one, it stayed up less than an hour and was taken off. Ah, censorship!

What the heck is wrong with Amazon these days? They'll let ridiculous, obviously-bashing reviews stay but have a hair trigger with other stuff.

I bet they have software that automatically removes reviews if they get enough "report this" clicked. All the negatives save one are obviously written by the same person. They need to completely revamp their reviewing structure.
 

Ed Williams

Banned
Joined
Feb 12, 2005
Messages
1,079
Reaction score
686
Age
67
Location
Georgia
Website
www.ed-williams.com
Well, the funniest thing about the "Atlanta Nights" Amazon reviews...

...is who cares if they post a thousand negative reviews, if the truth be known. Just attracts that much more attention to the book, it's obvious the reviews are all written by the same person, who is obviously an ardent PAvidian. The most ironic thing is the inordinate value the PAvidians place in Amazon reviews, I mean, how many people even read those things? Of course, if your book isn't stocked in bookstores, I guess it assumes a magnified importance....
 

ByGrace

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 12, 2005
Messages
223
Reaction score
82
Quick Question

An author has emailed me and asked about the rules for making a published book available online as a free download. Since PA authors get a PDF file, can they legally send the file to people who want to read it? I have done this with a couple book reviewers.

There is no profit involved.
 

ByGrace

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 12, 2005
Messages
223
Reaction score
82
Quick Question

Forgot to ask if anyone knows the answer to this.
 

keltora

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 12, 2005
Messages
212
Reaction score
68
Location
East Tennessee
Website
www.sff.net
Ed Williams said:
...is who cares if they post a thousand negative reviews, if the truth be known. Just attracts that much more attention to the book, it's obvious the reviews are all written by the same person, who is obviously an ardent PAvidian. The most ironic thing is the inordinate value the PAvidians place in Amazon reviews, I mean, how many people even read those things? Of course, if your book isn't stocked in bookstores, I guess it assumes a magnified importance....

It is interesting to note all the "reviewers" have used "pen names." I'm laughing because a couple of the reviews make No Sense what so ever.

But if it draws more attention to the sad case of Publish America, the World's Biggest Rip-Off Artist, then it has done its duty.

But of course, it also seems to reveal that there is such a petty side to small-minded people.

:banana:
Laura J. Underwood (A Little Bit of Travis Tea--My ATLANTA NIGHTS can poke out your EYE OF ARGON any day!)

DRAGON'S TONGUE forthcoming from Meisha Merlin in the Summer of 2006. Preview a copy at http://www.embiid.net.

 

mdin

The late, the great XThe NavigatorX
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 12, 2005
Messages
2,376
Reaction score
539
Location
Seattle, WA
Website
www.mattdinniman.com
I know of a couple PA authors who have placed their entire book free on their websites after PA refused to release them. I won't even begin to pretend to know about the legalities of doing that when you have an active contract with PA, but I do know PA hasn't done anything about it.
 

tab

Dipsomaniac on the floor!
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 23, 2005
Messages
143
Reaction score
53
Location
Houston, Texas
Website
www.apocalypsecow.org
Jaws said:
Tab, I hope that you have seen/had better experiences than those I have observed at about 15 universities, including three of the purported top five MFA programs. Admittedly, these are perhaps more academically oriented than many MFA programs offered through, say, P&W's voluminous ads (all of them, for example, require GRE and GRE English subject scores). However, the disdain for the author's marketing role comes through clearly in catalogs, in seminar and faculty presentations, and in comments from students. (Note: I'm a refugee from the MLA, and can theorize at the drop of a hat; so I have good enough camouflage to get non-PR-oriented answers.)

If you've got some "better" examples, I'd love to hear about them.

I actually only have my experience at Columbia. I was in the creative writing program. It was a specialized program but not an actual major. I majored in something else. I'm very fond of my experience there. True, they did not emphasize marketing, but I never found this to be a failing. This may be because, like I said, I tended to network and observe a lot. I'm one of those people who learns well on her own. It was an excellent program. I considered doing an MFA, but I decided that it would probably be a waste of my time.

I value your expertise on the subject. You're probably correct. My experience was just different.
 

roach

annoyed and annoying
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 12, 2005
Messages
701
Reaction score
130
Location
Bolingbrook, IL
Website
www.idiorhythmic.net
ByGrace said:
An author has emailed me and asked about the rules for making a published book available online as a free download. Since PA authors get a PDF file, can they legally send the file to people who want to read it? I have done this with a couple book reviewers.

There is no profit involved.

There are two different issues here: sending out a PDF file of a published book to reviewers/selected audience and making a PDF file of a published book free to anyone and everyone.

Erring on the side of caution I would say that sending a PDF file of a published book to reviewers would be acceptable. After all PA does make their authors responsible for marketing.

However, handing the PDF file out willy-nilly could be construed as attempting to compete with PA. I really don't think it's likely that PA would come after an author for this. Although it could be used as the reason behind a snotty e-mail/banning from them.

On the other hand, a couple of authors published by commercial publishers have given away their titles in e-book format ([size=-1]Cory Doctorow[/size] is the best example) to increase sales of paper copies. Another example of this is Baen's giveaways of e-book versions of their titles. So if PA ever tried to spank an author for giving away the PDF file the author could come back with "I'm doing it for publicity."
 
Last edited:

mdin

The late, the great XThe NavigatorX
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 12, 2005
Messages
2,376
Reaction score
539
Location
Seattle, WA
Website
www.mattdinniman.com
I went through the creative writing BA program at a large Pac-10 university, and I didn't hear a single thing about marketing/publishing the entire time.

The few of us who wrote "genre" stuff were treated like lepers. I have copies of my stories with whole paragraphs crossed out in red with No Inventions written in the margins. I still managed decent grades, though.

and in the spirit of keeping this thread at least a little on topic:

Bonnie - I was just checking the PA board and saw your post about Independence books. Good luck. We've seen at least twenty such threads get posted and destroyed in a matter of hours.
 

Deleted member 42

Jaws said:
Tab, I hope that you have seen/had better experiences than those I have observed at about 15 universities, including three of the purported top five MFA programs. .

There are a few, a very few, exceptions (Woodrow Wilson is one), but my experience (I've attended three universities, and taughtt at four, and am a faculty brat for another handful) is much like Jaws.

There's not much training regarding writing itself, even of an academic nature, or academic publishing either, at the graduate level. Some of the advice I've heard regarding academic publishing is as bad as anything I've seen from PA folk. I'm also exceedingly opinionated about academic prose--much of what I've been reading is excrutiatingly awful, and frequently is semantically null.
 

Ed Williams

Banned
Joined
Feb 12, 2005
Messages
1,079
Reaction score
686
Age
67
Location
Georgia
Website
www.ed-williams.com
Just to check it out...

...I posted a positive review on Amazon about "Atlanta Nights," and saw one other one on there. Neither lasted more than forty-five minutes, isn't that amazing?
 

tab

Dipsomaniac on the floor!
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 23, 2005
Messages
143
Reaction score
53
Location
Houston, Texas
Website
www.apocalypsecow.org
I should clarify one thing, I was not published by Publish America. I'm just a curious onlooker and an advocate for transparency.
 

bikrpreacher

Banned
Joined
Feb 12, 2005
Messages
196
Reaction score
27
Age
69
Location
Georgia
Ed Williams said:
...I posted a positive review on Amazon about "Atlanta Nights," and saw one other one on there. Neither lasted more than forty-five minutes, isn't that amazing?

They would have to be sitting there all day hitting that report button, yep, that IS amazing.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.