Rough subject: Thank you for your comments, folks

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kkbe

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Flicka: As for believability... People are majorly effed up and do things and react in ways that may not fit our idea of what they ought to, reasonably, do or feel. It doesn't even matter what they statistically ought to do or feel. That's part of why the world is heart-wrenching and painful and unpredictable sometimes.

Flicka and PPartisan, I hear you both. To pronounce Cherry's reaction "unrealistic" is unfair to him; in effect, saying that, because he didn't respond the way one believes he "should" have responded, his response was wrong.

PPartisan: All you need is to tell a story, and show your man honestly - if reader's like or dislike him at the end is the reader's decision.

Yep.
 

ViolettaVane

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Since they end up together at the end, I think you really need to consider your audience and how you're going to market this book.

It's going to enrage a lot of people,as you might be able to tell from the response on this thread.

Personally? I'm OK with reading rape. I've written nonconsensual erotica. I'm OK with getting inside the heads of people who do terrible things. But I'm not OK with rape->love narratives and won't read them. I would not read this book. I don't see how it's a mainstream book in any shape or form. Maybe if one or both of them died at the end or something else horrible happened as well, I could see it falling on the very grim end of literary fiction, but just plain rape->love... no. No.

However, a lot of readers are into rape->love narratives. I don't judge them, or believe that liking that fictional trope means they wouldn't hate it in real life. The rape->love trope is all over yaoi, slash and some m/m erotica. I think if you made the rape scene more explicit, and added more sensual and emotional details, you could easily market it that way.
 

HoneyBadger

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I don't know if you've read this GQ article about a "reformed" rapist, kkbe, but it's chilling and very, very interesting.

He’s crying again. He’s bawling, sobbing, bleating, squealing, squeezing his fists to his eyes, letting his hair stick to the puddles on his face, suffering like some slaughtered saint. What is he crying about this time? Who knows? He cries about everything. He cries about anything. Crying is what Mitch Gaff does, you see, to test himself, to prove himself, to believe himself. One of his friends at Twin Rivers will tell you that the act of crying—the emotionalism that it represented, and the penchant for self-pity—was part of Mitch’s deviance, Mitch’s stuff, and they used to try and get him to stop doing it so much. Still… well, you’ve never seen anybody cry until you’ve seen Mitch cry, and your instinct is to reach out to him, to give him a hug, to offer him the comfort of a human hand on his shoulder… but you don’t. You don’t because of who he is, and what he’s done. He has to cry? Let him cry. He has to keen, he has to wail, he has to strangle his beautiful voice and send shrieking to Heaven? Let him sing. Because that is the song of Mitch Gaff, and he should have to sing it forever.
 

Theo81

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It's also worth pointing out that Rapists tend to think all men are rapists. This is why we don't tell Rape jokes - it re-enforces that belief.

Rape is not something people do once. It is what they are until they learn differently (or, forever, depending on your views regarding rehabilitation). A rapist does not simply have sex without consent. They have a lot of other traits as well.

The thing is, you could easily build on the idea that David IS a rapist. He is certainly walking a thin line of statutory rape. Whatever Cherry says, thinks or believes he thinks, David is abusing his position as much as the lads who go to Bangkok to pick up Thai girls for the week do. The question is, what do you think?

Re the question of whether it is okay that he isn't "punished" for this: Who is the book aimed at? I don't care if he gets punished, that's not the kind of reader I am. The book is the book. Are the people who you think are going to be reading it going to have a problem with that? Who's going to be in the "if you have enjoyed this..." section of your Amazon page?

There's your answer. You have to consider the reader.
 

kkbe

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ViolettaVane: Since they end up together at the end, I think you really need to consider your audience and how you're going to market this book.

It's going to enrage a lot of people,as you might be able to tell from the response on this thread.

But they don't end up together (Post #48). I do consider my audience, which is why I started this thread. To consider marketing is premature at this point. Some people are angry, some are not.

Violettavane: I would not read this book. I don't see how it's a mainstream book in any shape or form. Maybe if one or both of them died at the end or something else horrible happened as well, I could see it falling on the very grim end of literary fiction, but just plain rape->love... no. No.

Certainly, it is your prerogative to read or not read my novel, or any novel. As for the "mainstream" label, I questioned whether CHERRY fit better as literary fiction or mainstream/contemp. fiction. At this point, genre is a secondary concern. At the end, one disappears and the other is sad.

ViolettaVane: However, a lot of readers are into rape->love narratives.

I trust "a lot of readers" are more discerning than that.

The rape->love trope is all over yaoi, slash and some m/m erotica. I think if you made the rape scene more explicit, and added more sensual and emotional details, you could easily market it that way.

I have not written a rape->love trope. CHERRY is not yaoi, slash, or m/m erotica. I feel that the way I handled the rape is explicit enough. I am not interested in making it moreso for marketing purposes.

Honeybadger, why the quote? Is this your way of illustrating how a rape victim feels about his or her rapist? That the victim is saying, "Cry, you fucker, cry forever, you deserve no less, you deserve no mercy"? No doubt, some rape victims feel that way.

David Brandt cries.

I didn’t think I had any tears left but I do because I’m still crying. I cried for hours and hours and here I am, crying again, crying my eyes out because, God, Steve, I’m sorry. I’m so, so sorry, Steve.
-----------------------------
“I’m so sorry, Steve. Christ,” I said, and then I started crying. I know, I’m a grown man but I couldn’t help it. I cried because I couldn’t take it back and he wasn’t going to forgive me. I cried because my heart was—
------------------------------------
I’ve been waking up crying. I know it’s ridiculous. I can’t help it.
------------------------------------
I’m a moron and an idiot because I

Hang on a second.

I’m crying all the fucking time.
--------------------------------------

He turns left and drives to Kitlan Creek Park. He pulls in behind the Muskrat Picnic Shelter, cuts the engine and kills the lights. He opens the bottle, downs three healthy swigs of rum, lifts the gun, opens his mouth, eats the barrel and releases the safety catch. His finger is on the trigger.
Do it, Dave.
He shuts his eyes.
Do it.
For five minutes, he holds his finger on the trigger, until beads of sweat form on his forehead and above his upper lip; until his hand begins to tremble from the strain.
I can’t do it, Cherry.
He slides the barrel from his mouth and starts to cry.

Does he deserve to cry forever? Should he have blown his brains out? That's up to the reader to decide.

Theo81: Rape is not something people do once.

That sounds like a blanket statement. As for rape being more than "sex w/out consent": agreed.

The thing is, you could easily build on the idea that David IS a rapist.

That is not the gist of my novel. He raped Cherry. As far as I know, he is not a serial rapist. The novel transpires over the course of a year, what happens beyond that might be fodder for another novel.

"Statutory rape" in this case? Legally, nope. Walking a thin line? In his mind? Yes. Abusing his position? Yes, he admits as much.
I don’t care how old the kid is, it doesn’t matter what chronological age the kid is, he’s not a man; at least, not yet, he isn’t. He’s still an innocent, trusting kid who put his trust in me and I blew it. I took advantage of him. It doesn’t matter what the priest said; I took advantage of that kid.

I’ve been doing that since Day One.

You say, The question is, what do you think? Nope, not what I think.

You ask: Who's going to be in the "if you have enjoyed this..." section of your Amazon page?

Good question. Again, it all comes back to why I started this thread.
 
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ViolettaVane

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Fair enough. I skimmed over #48, and was going by your "but he still loves him" in the first post.
 

HoneyBadger

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The paragraph I posted is the final in the article, written by a journalist.

If you read the article, you'll see the rapists' thoughts, the words of the two victims, and Tom Junod's impressions.


I posted that to illustrate that grief over raping someone? Meaningless. Who cares? Rapists *do* deserve to suffer, for the rest of their lives, for what they've done. Cry all day long; it changes nothing. It doesn't mean you're an okay person who had a momentary slip. Crying is selfish. It's self-pitying. It's regretful, but not remorseful. It doesn't do a goddamned thing for the person who was raped.

Victims may forgive; that's their prerogative and for some may be part of the healing process, but it in no way changes, minimizes, or offers redemption to the rapist for the tremendous violation, assault, dehumanizing act of rape.

If you break another human, that's it for you in terms of ever being a truly decent person.
 

Amadan

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I think you're just going to have to accept that some readers (and some people in this thread) hate your premise and will judge you for it. If you have confidence in your story, then you should write it. No matter what anyone here tells you, delivery is everything, and if you write it well enough, there will be a market for it.

You won't convince people that you really do know what you're doing or that your story really is that good by arguing with them, though. Take this experience to heart, because it's just a taste of what you'll get if your book is published. You will get 1-star reviews on Amazon calling you a rape apologist and worse. Are you okay with that? Excellent, then write your book. If not, maybe you need to either rethink it or build up a tougher shell.

I understand why you want to lash back at the (let's be honest) self-righteous tone of some of your critics in this thread, but use this as a training exercise to break yourself of that habit. Likewise, you're getting a lot of orthodox rape theory pounded into you, with the implication that human interactions can never ever play out any other way, and if you wanted to argue about that in a thread about that topic, it would be fair game, but arguing about it when the topic is your story is just making you look defensive.
 

kkbe

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HoneyBadger: Victims may forgive; that's their prerogative and for some may be part of the healing process, but it in no way changes, minimizes, or offers redemption to the rapist for the tremendous violation, assault, dehumanizing act of rape.

If you break another human, that's it for you in terms of ever being a truly decent person.

I agree with your first premise. As for your second comment. . .if you break another human. . .yes, that's unforgiveable, but Dave doesn't break Cherry.

Amadan:. . .if you wanted to argue. . .in a thread about that topic, it would be fair game, but arguing about it when the topic is your story is just making you look defensive.

I know. I tried to keep "on point," then found myself becoming emotionally reactive and, hence, defensive. I've tried to respond thoughtfully and respectfully.

I have confidence in my story. It is already written (in editing/rvsn. state). This thread has solidified my committment to CHERRY.

I truly do appreciate all of the posters to this thread. Clearly, people have strong opinions relative to the topic I raised. .. or, let's say, the topic that evolved. Hopefully one day my book will be available, and people can read it and opine to their hearts' content.
 
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thebloodfiend

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I don't really see the point of this thread if all you're going to do is defend your MC. You asked how they'd feel about a rape victim still loving his rapist. They answered. You've gotten "go with it" and "you're romanticizing rape" as your main responses. Rape is one of those subjects that can't be explained away. There's no justification. People are either going to accept the way you write, or abhor it.

I, personally, don't care for what you've written. In real life, I don't think rapists can be redeemed. In fiction, well that's an entirely different beast. Anything, as long as it's well written, can happen in fiction. But with a topic like that, you should write with sensitivity, and be aware of the fact that, well, it's rape. A lot of people think the penalty for rape should be death.

I mean, honestly, if you're afraid of people thinking you're a rape apologist, just turn the scene into hate fucking.

And, tbh, I've read a lot of weird, sick, disgusting shit. I realize that for abhorrent MC's, you've got to separate them from the author. But from your posts, I don't get the feeling that you're separating yourself from the story. You've got to look at it like an outsider would. A lot of people aren't going to see the nuance. They're going to see a raped kid loving a rapist. The amount of people who see that depends on how well you write it. And Dave's crying is rather pitiful, IMO. I'm a fan of going all the way, or not bothering at all.

And if, for Dave, this is just a one time thing he'd never do again because he's truly a good person at heart, well, I call BS. I haven't read the story, only your excerpts, so it's hard to tell what you're trying to portray. I've read non-fic about rapists and they tend to either a) justify what they did because it was love, b) feel no remorse, or c) swear they'd never do it again, but fall to temptation anyway. In the words of Detective Stabler from SVU: "You show me a first time offender, I'll show you a guy who's never been caught before."
 

kkbe

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To thebloodfiend:

I am not going to defend my mc, nor his actions, nor his reactions, nor the fact that he raped Cherry, nor the fact that Cherry is able and willing to move past that, nor the fact that Dave doesn't die, nor the fact that he cries a lot. I won't try to explain myself, my choices, my research. I won't try to change your mind about what I have written. I won't speculate as to whether or not Dave rapes again. I won't comment on your written or implied comments that I responded inappropriately, or unthoughtfully, or incorrectly to the posters here. I won't comment on your comment: I mean, honestly, if you're afraid of people thinking you're a rape apologist, just turn the scene into hate fucking.

I will, however, state, for the record, that I think Detective Stabler does, on occasion, manage a memorable, even pithy, utterance, which is a testament to the talents of the show's writers who, once in a while, crank out a thoughtful, well-turned phrase or two. . . which is, in my mind, what all writers hope to do.
 
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thebloodfiend

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I'm just going to say that it's very hard to say how I'd feel about Dave, as I haven't read your novel. From your excerpts, and from your summaries, I don't care for him. But that's my singular opinion. People will bring their own prejudices with them when they read your novel. If the overwhelming response is "bleh," well, you've got to ask yourself if that's what you want.

I am not going to defend my mc, nor his actions, nor his reactions, nor the fact that he raped Cherry, nor the fact that Cherry is able and willing to move past that, nor the fact that Dave doesn't die, nor the fact that he cries a lot.

Then don't. You've presented a summary and excerpts. Let them speak for themselves. Either re-write it or don't.

I won't try to explain myself, my choices, my research. I won't try to change your mind about what I have written. I won't speculate as to whether or not Dave rapes again. I won't comment on your written or implied comments that I responded inappropriately, or unthoughtfully, or incorrectly to the posters here.

Then don't. Whether or not I think his recidivism needs to be addressed is irrelevant, because it's your story. Tell it how you want to tell it, but be prepared for dissenting opinions. You question was:

So, my question is: what does the AW community think?


And they told you. I suppose it's more difficult to answer because you aren't really asking a solid question. You aren't asking whether or not we'd continue reading, or if we'd root for Dave, or if we think you're justifying his behavior. You're just asking for opinions without any limited set of criteria.

I won't comment on your comment: I mean, honestly, if you're afraid of people thinking you're a rape apologist, just turn the scene into hate fucking.

Actually, I think you should comment. I mean, here you say:

I think it’s important to keep it in my story. It defines the mc, it’s integral to the story and shaping the relationship between him and the kid.

If the rape is pivotal, nothing we can say will change your story. There will always be people who judge the author because of what they write. If you're afraid of them, change the scene. Turn it into rough sex. And if you're able to do that, it proves that the scene wasn't pivotal. If it is, change it back.

I guess the big question any author wants answered is "do you like my book, and would you read my next one?" And, frankly, you want more responses of "yes" than "no". And if you're getting more "no's" you might want to rethink your novel. Because, yeah, we can say "write for yourself" all we want, but in the end, you're not writing for yourself if you're seeking publication.

I will, however, state, for the record, that I think Detective Stabler does, on occasion, manage a memorable, even pithy, utterance, which is a testament to the creative and skilled talents of the show's writers. . .perhaps, to all writers.

Meh, I thought the show was poorly written at times (I've watched every single episode -- don't ask why) but the quote stood out. I am kind of wondering if Dave will rape again.

I'm all for pushing boundaries. I guess I'm just unsure of what you're asking, or what you're trying to say with your novel.
 

Theo81

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Flying past because it's late here...


That sounds like a blanket statement. As for rape being more than "sex w/out consent": agreed.

That's not what I said. An alcoholic is not simply somebody who drinks a lot - a rapist is not simply somebody who has sex without consent.
 

Amos Gunner

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An off topic observation from a newbie, and therefore easy to dismiss:

In the main/cont/lit section, a thread on, say, literary journals goes nowhere. A thread with the word "rape" in the title gets to three pages in no time.

Draw your own conclusion. I've drawn mine, but I think I'll keep it to myself.
 

buz

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In the main/cont/lit section, a thread on, say, literary journals goes nowhere. A thread with the word "rape" in the title gets to three pages in no time.

Draw your own conclusion. I've drawn mine, but I think I'll keep it to myself.
I am no authority on anything having to do with rape at all, but if there a single conclusive statement I can make on the subject, it is that

literary journals ≠ rape
 

Amadan

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An off topic observation from a newbie, and therefore easy to dismiss:

In the main/cont/lit section, a thread on, say, literary journals goes nowhere. A thread with the word "rape" in the title gets to three pages in no time.

Draw your own conclusion. I've drawn mine, but I think I'll keep it to myself.


Not sure what your point is. My conclusion would be that rape tends to arouse stronger feelings and more controversy than literary journals.
 

Libbie

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Just wanted to throw another voice into the discussion here.

I do not, on principle, have a problem with a book with a rapist MC who doesn't get killed in the end. I don't have a problem, on principle, with a rape victim who believes himself to be in love with his rapist. I think that's an uncommon but not unrealistic response some rape victims have.

The only thing I'd have a problem with is feeling that the whole situation was treated without a lot of understanding, care, and respect on the author's part. If the extent of David's reaction is to write in his journal "Oh, crap, I raped that kid. I'm a terrible person"...then I'd have a big problem with it. Then rape feels like a prop and not like an integral and important part of the story.

In order to show how integral the whole sordid business is, I agree that you need to show it. If not showing the rape in detail, show the moment just after, or something equally visceral, so that the reader is FULLY AWARE of what has happened. And stay way inside David's head to show his whole range of reaction. Otherwise you'll make a very serious issue seem like you're treating it lightly.

It's a tough subject to write on. I think it can be done well, but it's hard. And yes, you will always have people who'll refuse to read your book no matter how well you've written it. That's just the way it goes when you write on tough subjects.
 

kkbe

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Libbie: The only thing I'd have a problem with is feeling that the whole situation was treated without a lot of understanding, care, and respect on the author's part.

What did I write? Oh, yeah, "I won't try to change your mind about what I have written." But. . . no. I'm not going there. Except to say, "You're wrong, Libbie."

Libbie: If the extent of David's reaction is to write in his journal "Oh, crap, I raped that kid. I'm a terrible person"...then I'd have a big problem with it.

I wrote, "I am not going to defend my mc, nor his actions, nor his reactions. . ." so I won't, except to say, "That's not the extent of it."

Libbie: In order to show how integral the whole sordid business is, I agree that you need to show it. If not showing the rape in detail, show the moment just after, or something equally visceral, so that the reader is FULLY AWARE of what has happened. And stay way inside David's head to show his whole range of reaction. Otherwise you'll make a very serious issue seem like you're treating it lightly.

What did I write? "I won't try to explain myself, my choices. . ." I won't, except to say, "It's visceral. He's inside his head. I would never treat it lightly."
 
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Libbie

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Well, you wrote a LOT of stuff in this thread, and you're getting mighty defensive over it. Maybe you don't have the chops yet to face the intense criticism a book with a rapist protagonist will attract if you can't take simple discussion in a forum, and if you're going to get a burr up your butt over my comments, which were SUPPORTIVE of you.

Disclaimer: my favorite book ever, in the entire world, the book by which I judge all aspects of all other books, including character, is Lolita. A book with a rapist protagonist. I am not your enemy. So chill out.

I told you quite simply the kind of rape story I *would* have a problem with. I did not say that I was assuming that was the kind of rape story you'd written. I told you quite simply under what circumstances I'd have a problem with a rapist protagonist, because you asked. I did not say I'd assumed you'd written that kind of protagonist (although your initial descriptions of your protagonist's reactions were extremely vague).

And then I gave you some good advice on how to make David an approachable, or even sympathetic, character. And you got all pissy with me. The last person you should have jumped all over, because, you know, Humbert Humbert is my favorite character in fiction and all.

So maybe next time you ought to read what I wrote. And seriously, reconsider whether you're up for putting this book out there in the world at this point in your life, because this very civil discussion thread is apparently too much for you to take right now without getting super-defensive. Reaction to your book from readers will be much worse than this.
 

kkbe

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Oh heavens, Libbie.

I responded that I wrote with care; that the extent of Dave's reaction wasn't "Oh crap, I raped a kid;" that I would never treat rape lightly; that I, indeed, showed the moment just after, or something equally visceral so the reader was FULLY AWARE of what transpired; and that I stayed inside David's head to show his whole range of reaction.

That's what I said. That's all I said.
 

Libbie

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Inflection says more than the literal meaning of words. Even on the internet.

I'm out of this thread. Good luck to you with your book. Oh heavens.
 

kkbe

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Libbie, you're out of this thread so you may not read this. When you wrote: The only thing I'd have a problem with is feeling that the whole situation was treated without a lot of understanding, care, and respect on the author's part, I thought you were talking about me.

Apparently, I was wrong about that, but my response wasn't pissy or ultra defensive. I started this thread, perhaps unclear as to what I was asking the AW community, but I value all responses and I am getting a thicker skin, as I know I must.

I wrote this thing. I'm putting it out there.
 

mccardey

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KKBE - there was a thread operating last night (my time) which kind of morphed into a discussion about pedophiles and rapists in books, and what kinds of reactions they produced in (AW) readers. If you're still interested in your initial question, it might hold some interest for you. Do you want me to have a look for it?
 
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