Am I asking for headaches with this POV?

Katana · Jul 29, 2014

I would be grateful for advice from POV experts here. In my soft sci-fi ms, I start out with an omniscient narrator, which I hope is obvious from the first paragraph.

Omni then takes a back seat to limited third, with generally only one character's POV per scene. The MC sometimes relays nightmarish flashbacks in first person. Then, like a typical back seat driver, the omni narrator will pipe up with omni comments, like in this snippet where Lyndon isn't the POV character:

"Some boys stash porn in their rooms. I hid literature written in ancient Greek, hoping you would never find it and start putting two and two together."

"I stash porn," Lyndon said to lighten the mood, but the others weren't listening.

I've read that this technique is referred to as a quiet omni narrator. (Writing the (Quiet) Omniscient Narrator) http://www.glimmertrain.com/b85ng.html

I tried writing the entire thing in limited third, but found this way worked better. I was able to significantly cut the original word count, letting unobtrusive omni guy relay vital info in the most efficient way possible.

Of all my beta readers, only one was confused by the POV shifts. It may be a matter of personal preference, their not liking that kind of viewpoint, but POV shifts from chapter to chapter, or even scene to scene, aren't unusual.

Could I be asking for problems with this POV choice? Agents have seen everything, and I'm wondering if what I'm trying to pull off is something they're likely to recognize as acceptable.

Bufty · Jul 30, 2014

Seems to me it's basically breaking POV and hoping it won't be noticed.

mirandashell · Jul 30, 2014

Yeah...... I think I agree with Bufty.

And 'efficient' is never a word I like to see about a story.

BethS · Jul 30, 2014

J. Marks said:
I would be grateful for advice from POV experts here. In my soft sci-fi ms, I start out with an omniscient narrator, which I hope is obvious from the first paragraph.

Omni then takes a back seat to limited third, with generally only one character's POV per scene. The MC sometimes relays nightmarish flashbacks in first person. Then, like a typical back seat driver, the omni narrator will pipe up with omni comments, like in this snippet where Lyndon isn't the POV character:

For me, that's not a large enough snippet to make sense of what you're doing. Who is speaking in the first line? Is your ON in first-person? And why the quote marks, which make it look like dialogue?

You can certainly have an ON who fades in and out, but that doesn't exactly look like what you're doing here.

In ON, the POV never shifts; it's always that of the ON, even when he effaces himself and shines a light into the head of one character or another.

Hillsy7 · Jul 30, 2014

Bufty said:
Seems to me it's basically breaking POV and hoping it won't be noticed.

Not entirely sure that the OPs description of the issue matches the Ops sample, but from the excerpt I'd say it's the complete opposite: the Narrator is making a clear intejection into the narrative of the 3rd person limited.....

Seems to me (albit I'm extrapolating a lot here) it's more of an intrusive framing story. The narrator isn't a true narrator, but a character who sits outside of the main narrative and supplies commentary. It's almost like schizophrenic 1st person - in first person you can have the "narrator" talk to the reader about his own limited experience, whereas here the "narrator" talks about the POV character's limited experience.

It could work, but the importance I would say is establishing the "narrator" character early, and really work hard on the rules of what he/she can or can't tell the reader. Also it's probably important to have a really distinctive voice so you can differentiate the character of the narrator from the POV characters.

I won't lie, it'll take a lot of work to do it right, but I suspect it's doable...

Osulagh · Jul 30, 2014

If the "to lighten the mood" bit of your snippet was suppose to the "omni" here, "to" explains the character's actions and you could always branch it from the POV by having "as if to lighten the mood" which negates the whole problem.

I'm with Beth as I am too not getting a full picture. I've seen Third omni and limited with first person play well--Patrick Rothfuss does this well, IMO. But then you see to be describing something else other than define POVs that have purposes within the story's framework. It sounds like you don't know the limitation of third limited and how to use it (like I noted above), and possibly using omni as an excuse to dump info. With the first person, I'd have to see how to works and hear about your reasoning, but just having the first person to describe a dream seems abrupt and jarring.

BethS · Jul 30, 2014

Osulagh said:
I've seen Third omni and limited with first person play well--Patrick Rothfuss does this well, IMO.

Yes. But not together in the same scene.

WriteMinded · Jul 30, 2014

J. Marks said:
. . .

Omni then takes a back seat to limited third, with generally only one character's POV per scene. The MC sometimes relays nightmarish flashbacks in first person. Then, like a typical back seat driver, the omni narrator will pipe up with omni comments, like in this snippet where Lyndon isn't the POV character:

I've read that this technique is referred to as a quiet omni narrator. (Writing the (Quiet) Omniscient Narrator) http://www.glimmertrain.com/b85ng.html

I tried writing the entire thing in limited third, but found this way worked better. I was able to significantly cut the original word count, letting unobtrusive omni guy relay vital info in the most efficient way possible.

. . . .

Could I be asking for problems with this POV choice? Agents have seen everything, and I'm wondering if what I'm trying to pull off is something they're likely to recognize as acceptable.

Switching 3rd POV from chapter to chapter is very common and almost never confusing. However — if I have understood correctly — you are using omni when it suits and jumping to 1st on occasion. Any 2nd?

The example you give of soft omni is exactly the kind of little bugger I kill when I am editing my own work. You could so easily reword that snippet to keep the POV clean and get rid of the problem altogether.

Although agents have surely seen almost everything, jumping to the conclusion that having seen soft omni before, they find it acceptable is quite a leap. IMO, they are more likely to see it as screaming amateur. Myself, I have only seen it in self-published works, and I found it irritating.

However. You asked for expert opinions, and I am not an expert, just an opinionated writer.

Bufty · Jul 30, 2014

'Soft Omniscient' sounds very hoity-toity to me.

In Third person Limited there is no 'omni narrator'. The narrator is the writer and to insert things as fact that the POV character doesn't and couldn't possibly know unless he is psychic- such as why someone decided to say something in the illustration - is breaking POV.

Sonsofthepharaohs · Jul 30, 2014

WriteMinded said:
Although agents have surely seen almost everything, jumping to the conclusion that having seen soft omni before, they find it acceptable is quite a leap. IMO, they are more likely to see it as screaming amateur.

Agree. This kind of POV mash up is exactly what agents hate - I got dinged for it by an agent who read something I wrote before I even knew about POV. Basically, if you resort to a technique because it's a convenient and easy way to solve a storytelling problem, you're probably doing it badly.

Jamesaritchie · Jul 30, 2014

Shifting from third limited to omniscient shouldn't be noticeable, if done well. Omniscient is not about head-hopping, it's about distance, and the best omniscient is written very much like third limited. In third limited, you can't know what more than one charater is doing, thinking, feeling, etc. In omnoiscient, however, it's perfectly fine to use only one POV character per scene, and long as you maintain distance.

Omniscient written just so that the writer can jump in and out of character's heads in the same scene is usually poorly written, and really isn't omniscient at all, it's just third limited with head-hopping. This can be confusing to any reader.

Bufty · Jul 30, 2014

I may be misunderstanding, but can you clarify something for me, James, please?

The reference to ... it's perfectly fine to use only one POV character per scene... suggests the POV is not that of the omniscient narrator.

Do you mean to imply that, or do you mean the omniscient narrator could focus in on the sensory observations of only one character per scene while making no mention of what the other characters in that scene were thinking or feeling?

Jamesaritchie said:
Shifting from third limited to omniscient shouldn't be noticeable, if done well. Omniscient is not about head-hopping, it's about distance, and the best omniscient is written very much like third limited. In third limited, you can't know what more than one charater is doing, thinking, feeling, etc. In omnoiscient, however, it's perfectly fine to use only one POV character per scene, and long as you maintain distance.

Omniscient written just so that the writer can jump in and out of character's heads in the same scene is usually poorly written, and really isn't omniscient at all, it's just third limited with head-hopping. This can be confusing to any reader.

Katana · Jul 30, 2014

Thank you for your responses, everyone.

WriteMinded said:
Switching 3rd POV from chapter to chapter is very common and almost never confusing. However — if I have understood correctly — you are using omni when it suits and jumping to 1st on occasion. Any 2nd?

Nope. I know better than to do this.

The snippet I gave was not the best of examples. It's dialogue, and, to simplify things, I only took the last line from a larger paragraph of the first speaker.

It probably sounds like my ms is a hot mess with several confusing POVs. The 1st person scenes are actually memories of an ancient life, emerging as terrifying nightmares for the mc. There are only three of these, and they're quite short. Several betas have complimented me on how well these 1st person scenes work.

I read a post here seven or eight months ago from a prominent presence on AW. The writer said his current WIP has 7 POVs, 4 of which are main ones, and an odd omni narrator that likes to barge in sometimes. I don't want to mention the writer because I don't have his permission (and he may not want the attention), but I saved his post because I was thinking, "Yay!! This learned writer is doing something similar! I don't feel like such a loserish amateur." In my case, the POV shifts don't happen often, as most of the ms is spent with the mc.

Bufty said:
The reference to ... it's perfectly fine to use only one POV character per scene... suggests the POV is not that of the omniscient narrator.

Do you mean to imply that, or do you mean the omniscient narrator could focus in on the sensory observations of only one character per scene while making no mention of what the other characters in that scene were thinking or feeling?

That's what I've done most of the time, so that's how I interpreted his comment, but I may be misunderstanding it, as well.

Bufty · Jul 31, 2014

To my mind, the part you highlighted in my post is perfectly normal when using Omniscient as the POV so I don't really understand why the issue of a 'soft omniscient narrator' came into the equation at all. It's not 'soft' - it's normal to smoothly focus in and out on characters as necessary, without going 'into their heads'.

An odd omni narrator that likes to barge in sometimes? I don't follow that expression - if there's an omni narrator he's there all the time.

Good luck. Hope it all works out.

J. Marks said:
Thank you for your responses, everyone.

Nope. I know better than to do this.

The snippet I gave was not the best of examples. It's dialogue, and, to simplify things, I only took the last line from a larger paragraph of the first speaker.

It probably sounds like my ms is a hot mess with several confusing POVs. The 1st person scenes are actually memories of an ancient life, emerging as terrifying nightmares for the mc. There are only three of these, and they're quite short. Several betas have complimented me on how well these 1st person scenes work.

I read a post here seven or eight months ago from a prominent presence on AW. The writer said his current WIP has 7 POVs, 4 of which are main ones, and an odd omni narrator that likes to barge in sometimes. I don't want to mention the writer because I don't have his permission (and he may not want the attention), but I saved his post because I was thinking, "Yay!! This learned writer is doing something similar! I don't feel like such a loserish amateur." In my case, the POV shifts don't happen often, as most of the ms is spent with the mc.

That's what I've done most of the time, so that's how I interpreted his comment, but I may be misunderstanding it, as well.

Roxxsmom · Jul 31, 2014

I've read a lot of novels that are mostly in a limited third, but the authors may start chapters or sections in a more omniscient style pov, or write transitional scenes or chapters in omniscient (Django Wexler does this). I think switching back into omni once you've funneled a scene or chapter down is more likely to be problematic. Once you've brought a reader inside a pov's perception, it can be very jarring to dislodge them within that same scene, however.

There is something called the invisible narrator technique (in limited third), where the narrative camera pans out a bit without actually breaking pov. The narrator doesn't tell the reader anything the pov character doesn't know, but he or she uses a more generic voice or tone to disclose something it might be a stretch for the pov to be thinking of in that very moment.

The young woman--like most locals, she had blond hair and blue eyes--lounged at the table.

I ran across a blog that discussed this a while ago, but of course now I can't find it in my bookmarks. I think it's probably in the category of techniques one should use sparingly, or it won't be "invisible."

Bufty · Jul 31, 2014

.

=Roxxsmom;9005322]I've read a lot of novels that are mostly in a limited third, but the authors may start chapters or sections in a more omniscient style pov, or write transitional scenes or chapters in omniscient (Django Wexler does this). I think switching back into omni once you've funneled a scene or chapter down is more likely to be problematic. Once you've brought a reader inside a pov's perception, it can be very jarring to dislodge them within that same scene, however.

That's surely one of the functions of any narrator - to set the initial scene if it wouldn't otherwise be clear from the chosen POV character's actions, interactions, or reactions.

There is something called the invisible narrator technique (in limited third), where the narrative camera pans out a bit without actually breaking pov. The narrator doesn't tell the reader anything the pov character doesn't know, but he or she uses a more generic voice or tone to disclose something it might be a stretch for the pov to be thinking of in that very moment.

The young woman--like most locals, she had blond hair and blue eyes--lounged at the table.

I ran across a blog that discussed this a while ago, but of course now I can't find it in my bookmarks. I think it's probably in the category of techniques one should use sparingly, or it won't be "invisible."

I haven't a clue what 'invisible narrator technique' means in relation to the example given. To maintain the reader's illusion of experiencing events through the senses of the chosen POV character the Third person Limited narrator - the writer- should strive to remain invisible throughout, and risks breaking POV by drawing attention to himself by such comments.

BethS · Aug 1, 2014

Roxxsmom said:
There is something called the invisible narrator technique (in limited third), where the narrative camera pans out a bit without actually breaking pov. The narrator doesn't tell the reader anything the pov character doesn't know, but he or she uses a more generic voice or tone to disclose something it might be a stretch for the pov to be thinking of in that very moment.

The young woman--like most locals, she had blond hair and blue eyes--lounged at the table.

IMO, if the young woman is meant to be the POV character, that example breaks POV. It's an outside-the-character observation.

Jo Bourne discussed this concept of an IN in a thread here recently, though. Not sure which one. Personally, I think what it's called is just semantics. Sometimes the POV is focused in close and sometimes it draws back a little to impart more general information that's still within the scope of the character's POV.

veinglory · Aug 1, 2014

So basically you have a narrative voice that makes occassional interjections into a third person account? No?

It's uncommon but R A MacAvoy made it work.

paddismac · Aug 1, 2014

I'm as green as spring grass at writing, and every time I think I have something figured out, I see something that makes me know that I haven't figured it out at all.

This sentence that Roxxsmom posted as invisible narrator in limited third (Gah! I've never encountered that term):

"The young woman--like most locals, she had blond hair and blue eyes--lounged at the table."

I would have read as being an omniscient narrator.

Am I totally off base? (Probably am, but I'm taking notes here! POV is my boogyman.)

Bufty · Aug 1, 2014

You're not off base. It could - in isolation - be read as omniscient.

But I understand it was intended as an illustration of an 'invisible narrator technique'.

The illustration is apparently meant to be Third person Limited POV where the following is narrated as being observed by the POV character - The young woman lounged at the table.

Then the narrator inserts his own additional comment as an 'invisible' narrator like most locals, she had blond hair and blue eyes.

Why making such a comment (and breaking the POV to boot) is supposed to make him an 'invisible narrator' beats me, because the narrator in Third Person Limited is usually aiming to be invisible all the time.

It's a load of cobblers to me and I wouldn't worry about it.

paddismac said:
I'm as green as spring grass at writing, and every time I think I have something figured out, I see something that makes me know that I haven't figured it out at all.

This sentence that Roxxsmom posted as invisible narrator in limited third (Gah! I've never encountered that term):

"The young woman--like most locals, she had blond hair and blue eyes--lounged at the table."

I would have read as being an omniscient narrator.

Am I totally off base? (Probably am, but I'm taking notes here! POV is my boogyman.)

paddismac · Aug 1, 2014

Thanks Bufty for that explanation. I think I understand now!

So much terminology to learn, absorb, or otherwise be aware of. At least it keeps me on my toes and shows me where I need to increase my knowledge. I s'pose if fiction writing were easy, everybody would be a best-selling author.

I'm really happy to have found AW!

mirandashell · Aug 1, 2014

I'm not sure you have to know all this technical stuff to write a book, do you? It's good for studying how, but not necessary for actually doing.

Bufty · Aug 1, 2014

I'm not sure a lot of it (what's in this thread anyway) even helps one to know how.

veinglory · Aug 1, 2014

mirandashell said:
I'm not sure you have to know all this technical stuff to write a book, do you? It's good for studying how, but not necessary for actually doing.

I don't think it hurts to know roughly what perspective you are using in a book. People should write whatever they like, but that choice affects marketability.

mirandashell · Aug 1, 2014

Roughly no. But I think some people get so tied up with the stuff that they forget the most important thing. To write the story.

Learning the fine nuances of Omniscient is just a distraction.

Am I asking for headaches with this POV?

On the edge...

Where have the last ten years gone?

Independent fluffy puppy.

Derailed

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Still writing the ancient Egyptian tetralogy

Where have the last ten years gone?

On the edge...

Where have the last ten years gone?

Beastly Fido

Where have the last ten years gone?

volitare nequeo

Parasite free since '09

Where have the last ten years gone?

Parasite free since '09

Where have the last ten years gone?

volitare nequeo