The Firearms Thread (Questions and Discussions)

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movieman

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Was this a black powder gun? If so, there could be plenty of opportunities for a misfire or complete fail to fire if the gun isn't kept clean or dry, particularly if it's a matchlock or flintlock where a small powder charge instead of a percussion cap is used to ignite the main charge.

For example, dirt blocking the touch-hole could prevent the flame from reaching the main powder charge in the barrel, so everything would otherwise appear to work but it just wouldn't fire. Water getting into the priming powder in the flash pan of a flintlock or matchlock could make that fizzle so there's no flame to get through there. Or the flint in a flintlock may fail to ignite the powder.

Or you could just say it goes click and not try to explain why :).

I've only fired black powder guns a few times with a group of friends, but from what I remember we had a few failures of that kind between us; particularly with the flintlocks. I'm sure there are more experienced black powder shooters here but they don't seem to be posting today :).
 

Canotila

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Thanks again for the responders who pointed out that if the gun wasn't cocked, it wouldn't make a 'click' sound. But I forgot that just before this particular scene took place, he fell down while holding the pistol. Could a tiny bit of dirt or something prevent it from firing? Could he cock the hammer, then pull the trigger (thereby getting a 'click' sound) but the gun does not fire?

If so, how would you clean it out? (The simpler, the better.)

Thanks again.

If it's a blackpowder using percussion caps the cap might fall off, especially if he forgot to crimp it with his fingers before sticking it on. All he'd have to do is stick a fresh one on and it'd fire just fine. Is he using a revolver or a single shot pistol? Damp caps would cause a misfire. If the hammer got gummed up with dirt and crap it might not hit the cap with enough force to ignite.

Dampness would do it, but then you've got the problem of getting the powder and ball out somehow, which is pretty obnoxious and going to be impossible if he didn't bring any tools with him and doesn't know what he's doing.
 

Stanmiller

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Back with another quick question.
Thanks again for the responders who pointed out that if the gun wasn't cocked, it wouldn't make a 'click' sound. But I forgot that just before this particular scene took place, he fell down while holding the pistol. Could a tiny bit of dirt or something prevent it from firing? Could he cock the hammer, then pull the trigger (thereby getting a 'click' sound) but the gun does not fire?

If so, how would you clean it out? (The simpler, the better.)

Thanks again.

With the single-shot pistol, the percussion cap could come off the nipple when he falls down. Then he pulls the hammer back to full cock (the first click), then tries to fire (second click as the hammer falls). To fix, simply put on another cap, then fire the pistol.

The revolver is a little more problematic. The Colts have a guard on the frame to keep the caps in place. Don't know about the other one.

Stan
 

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Could a tiny bit of dirt or something prevent it from firing? Could he cock the hammer, then pull the trigger (thereby getting a 'click' sound) but the gun does not fire?

If so, how would you clean it out? (The simpler, the better.)

Thanks again.

In modern firearms you use a drill known as slap rack bang. In essence, repeat the movement of making the gun ready to fire. In this case, if he was under time constraint, he would likely just cock the hammer again and try to fire. If the malfunction was that the flint didn't produce enough sparks, that might solve the issue. If he has more time he could open the pan (small bowl under the flint with a small hole in to the main powder charge in the barrel) and replace the powder.

These are (some of) the battlefield remedies that a novice might handle. beyond that it gets gnarly.
 

KQ800

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Technically not...

He ruins the test pretty effectively by using completely different types of bullets. Compering a 9mm fmj with a low pressure .38wc and a .357M jhp is nowhere near reasonable.

What would have been interesting would have been to see all three firing the same type of bullet and loaded close to average combat loads.
 

seun

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Handgun help

Need a little help with a handgun issue. Looking at the two guns in the middle of the bottom row of this picture:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7b/Handgun_collection.JPG

For someone with very little knowledge of guns, how easy would it be for them to use either of these guns? Also, how easy would it be for that person to open the chamber (if that's what it called) and add more bullets? And correct me if I'm wrong - am I right in thinking the two in the middle are an older design of gun than the others in the picture?
 

Hallen

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Depends. Do they have to load it first?

The smaller gun looks like a .38. It is most likely a double action weapon so would be very easy to use. Double action means you pull the trigger, it cocks the hammer, and then release the hammer. If the gun is loaded, it will fire. Hitting something with this gun is another question altogether. It's very short barrel, and it's heavy double action trigger pull, make it very difficult to hit anything if you are unskilled at weapons firing. This weapon design is still popular today as a conceal carry weapon because of its small size and general ease of use. (you don't have to think much to fire it)

The second gun looks like a Colt Navy. It's based on the old-west style pistol made famous in all those movies. It can be either double action or single action depending on how accurate of a replica it is. If it's a single action, the user would need to manually cock the hammer with their thumb prior to aiming and pulling the trigger. This is a pretty heavy gun, although it's longer barrel and lighter trigger pull once cocked makes it a more accurate weapon (in general).

The Glock (I think it's a Glock) shown in the upper left is as easy to use as it gets. Assuming it's loaded, all the user has to do is pick it up and pull the trigger. It has a safety lever on the trigger that gets pressed as a natural action of pulling the trigger. However, if there isn't a round in the chamber, then it's more complicated. The user has to pull the slide back and release it to chamber a round and cock the weapon. Then it will be ready to fire with a pull of the trigger. This type of weapon is normally carried with a round chambered and the weapon cocked so it is not unusual at all to just pick it up and squeeze the trigger to fire it. It's the simplicity of this action that is its strong point.

I'm not a visual expert on these weapons, so somebody else should confirm my nomenclature. But I'm sure about the use aspects that I talked about.
 

Drachen Jager

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The second from the right, bottom row (revolver, wood handgrip) is very simple. You can see that rounded part at the back of the cylinder, that rotates down and to the right, exposing one chamber at a time. Any moderately intelligent person who has seen a few movies could figure that one out. Though it looks like it's single action only which might mess with some people (pulling the trigger does nothing, you have to cock the hammer back manually).

The one to the left of it looks like it's double action so pulling the trigger would fire it. With that one there is a catch which releases the cylinder, the whole thing rotates out to the side for re-loading.

I am guessing about whether they are single/double action by the length of trigger pull, I may be wrong.

Either one would be simple to figure out if you had a minute or two to do it. The first might confuse some people when they found that pulling the trigger alone did nothing.
 

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Here:

http://50ae.net/collection/taurus669/taurus669-3-cs.jpg

is a picture that shows how the leftmost of the revolvers is loaded. the cylinder swings out when the little button next to it is either pushed or pulled sideways (model dependent) there is a small rod sticking out at the front of the cylinder,

http://www.shootingtimes.com/handgun_reviews/ST_coltnewservice_200905-A.jpg

when you push it towards the cylinder the spent cases will be pushed out (this is because sometimes they stick and doesn't fall out by themselves)


The other gun, the older possibly-single-action one is loaded like this:

http://www.hobbygunsmith.com/Archives/May04/PreCheck.JPG

Some revolvers require the user to cock the hammer halfway in order to free the cylinder. If the user does not know this, he might have to cock-and-release the mechanism repeatedly to advance the cylinder. This is awkward.

Also, there is a similar ejection rod on this gun, but over here:

http://www.engravingglossary.com/images/Ejector Rod Housing right.jpg

that comes out back here:

http://www.gunblast.com/images/STI-Texican/DSC02109.jpg

If the user does not know this, getting the spent cases out can be very difficult.
 

seun

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Thanks for your help. Glad I know now it's called a cylinder, not a chamber. The set up for the scene in question: character is being hunted, manages to get hold of a gun but has no idea how to check if there are any bullets. After this, it's more of having the gun as a threat issue than actually shooting anyone. Actually being able to check the bullets would be a big help.

Thanks, all.
 

KQ800

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Thanks for your help. Glad I know now it's called a cylinder, not a chamber. The set up for the scene in question: character is being hunted, manages to get hold of a gun but has no idea how to check if there are any bullets. After this, it's more of having the gun as a threat issue than actually shooting anyone. Actually being able to check the bullets would be a big help.

Thanks, all.

Well, the cylinder has chambers, five or six usually. In pistols, there is only one chamber, and taht is usually fixed to the barrel. A chamber is where a round sits when it is fired.

Also, in most revolvers, you can see if it is loades by looking at the cylinder from the front.

http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/363/363373/folders/277718/22176851.JPG


Once you know this, all Clint Eastwoods early movies becomes annoying....
 

Drachen Jager

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Also, in most revolvers, you can see if it is loades by looking at the cylinder from the front.

Once you know this, all Clint Eastwoods early movies becomes annoying....

First off. Never look down the barrel of a weapon that might or might not be loaded.

Secondly, if the action is cocked you cannot tell if the round in the firing chamber has been fired or not as the barrel blocks your view. Given the situations in Dirty Harry movies I would guess the action is cocked so your nitpick is probably invalid.
 

KQ800

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First off. Never look down the barrel of a weapon that might or might not be loaded.

Secondly, if the action is cocked you cannot tell if the round in the firing chamber has been fired or not as the barrel blocks your view. Given the situations in Dirty Harry movies I would guess the action is cocked so your nitpick is probably invalid.

Yes, I know, but the user in the story might turn it about without knowing proper firearms procedures.

Second: Not the Dirty Harry series! That was filmed in the US which allows the use of blanks in film props. I was referring to the The Man With No Name Trilogy which had the gunfights filmed in spain where the chambers of the props had to be left unloaded.
 

Drachen Jager

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Ahhh, I thought you meant, "I know what you're thinking punk. Did he fire six shots or only five..."

The first was more a general disclaimer. Just to make sure everyone is completely clear. It wasn't really a matter of correcting you.
 

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Yes, I know, but the user in the story might turn it about without knowing proper firearms procedures.

Second: Not the Dirty Harry series! That was filmed in the US which allows the use of blanks in film props. I was referring to the The Man With No Name Trilogy which had the gunfights filmed in spain where the chambers of the props had to be left unloaded.

I was more amused by the Man with No Name loading cartridges into Navy Colts...
 

Steve Collins

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Both the revolvers in the picture are Ruger's, the larger looks like a Redhawk and the smaller an SP101, 6 and 5 round respectively. The trigger pull on double action is usually 10 - 12 lbs, 3-5 lbs on single action i.e. when you thumb back the hammer. Hope this helps some?
 

Chase

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I was more amused by the Man with No Name loading cartridges into Navy Colts...

Only possible in that era when those cap 'n' ball front-loaders underwent conversions to cartridge revolvers. Many gunsmiths at the time specialized in the often unsightly transmogrification.
 

Tiger

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Only possible in that era when those cap 'n' ball front-loaders underwent conversions to cartridge revolvers. Many gunsmiths at the time specialized in the often unsightly transmogrification.

I didn't think it was possible at all. I knew I could count on you for the details.

But, the production people for these Italian westerns clearly liked the look of the Navy Colts and I believe you can see several scenes in which characters carry them with holsters that are full of cartridges.
 
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