The Firearms Thread (Questions and Discussions)

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Trebor1415

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Anyone know about shotgun shell reloading?

I know you can do it yourself relatively easily. What I'm wondering is how easy it would be once your supply of commercial pre-made components ran out / wore out, and what you would use instead. I'm assuming the reloading equipment itself would survive pretty much indefinitely provided it was looked after carefully. Commercial supplies haven't been available for about 70 years.

(Shot, not solid slugs, and breakbarrel guns rather than pump action.)

You'd have to have a source for primers, propellent, hulls (empty shell cases), and shot.

Plastic hulls can be recyled, but not for 70 years. Shotgun shells can be (and used to be) made of brass, so if they have the technology to make new brass cases for anything, they could make all brass or brass and paper/cardboard hulls.

To make round shot you need a several story tall building called a shot tower. You bascially drop the molten lead at the top and it falls through a series of screens. Gravity and the screens turn it into the small round pellets.

You could also hand cast round shot in a mold. You'd want a mold where each mold would make multiple pellets. It would actually be easier to make slugs with that method though.

As to making new primers, that's the tough one. You need a working knowledge of chemistry and some sort of at least basic chemical industrial process to make primers. It can be 19th Century tech, but it's the most involved part of the whole process.

So, the hard part isn't loading the components into a shell, per se, it's having the tech base to make the individual components.

EDIT: A forgot propellent. Modern smokeless propellent is totally different from black powder. To make it also requires fairly advanced knowledge of chemistry and the ability to work with chemicals at at least a workshop/lab scale.

Black powder is more straightforward to make, although still not actually easy. It doesn't require as advanced a knowledge of chemistry or chemical production processes. There are tricks and techniques to making good blackpowder and it does help to have an industrial base to work with as opposed to making it in your back yard. After 70 years though I'm sure the techniques to efficient BP production would be relearned, assumign there is any sort of cohesive society that allows for R&D, etc.

You could substitue BP for smokeless in cartridge firing shotguns, especially the simplier break open designs, with little problems. It would cause more fouling which does become an issue with repeaters (such as pump actions) or semi-autos.
 
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skylark

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Thanks Trebor! Exactly what I was looking for.

When you say "fairly advanced knowledge of chemistry", how high would that be? Interested high school student, degree level, or research scientist? Chemicals at a (garage) workshop level isn't a problem unless they're chemicals which themselves require a really complex manufacturing process.

Not worried about the fouling - they'll just have to clean the things more often :) Given that replacing anything broken is going to be near-impossible, they're going to limit use as much as possible anyway.

No shot tower, but I'm thinking it's not a disaster if the shape's not too good.

One more question - can you just fire a slug from the same gun that you'd fire an ordinary shot-filled shell from? Do you need to change anything at all, or do you just load a different shell?

(now needs to figure out where the heck they'd get sulphur from.)
 

Trebor1415

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When you say "fairly advanced knowledge of chemistry", how high would that be? Interested high school student, degree level, or research scientist? Chemicals at a (garage) workshop level isn't a problem unless they're chemicals which themselves require a really complex manufacturing process.

I'm not a chemist. My understanding though is that manufacturing smokeless propellents is a fairly advanced chemical manufacturing process and not something you'd attempt at a home workshop.

A lot depends on the knowledge base you have to work with. Does the person have info they can work from or are they trying to reproduce the process? Are they set up to extract chemicals using a centrifuge (I think that's how it's done?) and combine chemicals in an industrial type process.

Like I said though, I'm not a chemist, and my general understanding could be incorrect. I will say that knowing how to make blackpowder does NOTHING to help you make any of the smokeless propellents as they have nothing to do with each other chemicall.

Maybe do some research on how nitrocelluse and cordite were invited and see if you can figure out the background level of tech needed. Those are some of the earliest smokeless propellents.

Not worried about the fouling - they'll just have to clean the things more often :) Given that replacing anything broken is going to be near-impossible, they're going to limit use as much as possible anyway.

Fouling will also limit how many shots they can fire in a row before the mechanism is jammed.

Replacing broken parts in a firearm is going to be easier than making new primers or new propellents. Many small parts could be made by hand with simple tools such as a saw and file. Heck, if you have time, you can make nearly a whole firearm with hand tools. As long as you have a way to remove material from a chunk of metal and bend metal into shape you could make a lot of replacement parts.

The hardest thing would be any type of rifled barrel. It can be done, and was done before the age of electricity, but it is more difficult than making any other part of the gun.


One more question - can you just fire a slug from the same gun that you'd fire an ordinary shot-filled shell from? Do you need to change anything at all, or do you just load a different shell?

(now needs to figure out where the heck they'd get sulphur from.)

A shotgun usually has a smooth barrel. This works well for shot and can be used for slugs. A "rifled slug" is recommended for a smooth barreled shotgun. This type of slug has the rifling grooves that produce spin molded into the shell instead of using grooves in the barrel. I don't see any reason why you couldn't make a mold to hand cast rifled shotgun slugs. (If there are any reloaders out there who know better, speak up).

A shotgun with a rifled barrel doesn't need rifled slugs. It can shoot regular slugs and still shoot shot, although the shot will not perform as well due to the rifled barrel.
 

MichaelZWilliamson

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Sulfur can be distilled from acid, and from various sources such as eggs. It also occurs naturally. Potassium nitrate is easily made from compost, urine, manure or guano and boiled down. Charcoal is a very old technology.

I've seen a good hull last a dozen reloads.

Smokeless propellant can be made at "home" if you can build a fractionating still and extract certain chemicals. There are books on how to do it.
 

MichaelZWilliamson

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Also, I need some help with a scene in the story. The fourteen-year-old has to shoot a man, but she doesn't want to kill him. She has the revolver and is standing about two feet away. Should she shoot him in the foot, the leg, the shoulder, somewhere else? Which would bring the man down, but wouldn't necessarily kill him?

This is a really bad idea with a handgun. As Trebor noted, a skilled fighter can engage the shooter within up to 21 feet before a typical shooter can react. I wouldn't take someone's gun away at 2 feet, but I would likely break their fingers in the process of deflecting it, and they would almost certainly not get a shot off to even miss.

A typical handgun is around 300-400 ft lbs at the muzzle. Assault rifles in the 1300-1700 ft round range are considered marginal for kills, but reasonably reliable for stops. Large bore rifles and rifles for medium game are around 3000 ft lbs. A handgun bullet kills by either blood loss, trauma or hits to the critical organs or CNS. Shooting to wound is likely to piss someone off, and if they are actively hostile, will not stop them. The CW with a handgun is to shoot center mass and keep shooting until they stop, or shoot center mass and head, or double tap center and head (the Mozambique Drill).

If you need to use a gun, you need to kill someone. If you don't need to kill them, don't use a gun.
 

Stanmiller

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Well, I see this thread has been languishing, so here's a 'bump' to get it going again.
 

Stanmiller

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How bout this, a high-tech sniper scope that makes nearly any layman a precision marksman with a bit of training.

http://videosift.com/video/Digital-tracking-scope-fires-gun-when-target-is-in-sites

Kewl! Won't dope the scope for range, wind, spin drift, temp, or up/down angle, but cool tech just the same. No word on what the critters will cost, but with that electronic trigger mechanism, I'd say $4-5K at least.

Combine it with Barrett's BORS scope-doping system for the best of both worlds. Can you say 2000 meter offhand hits?
 

MichaelZWilliamson

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Word is $20K, and it doesn't account for wind, curvature, or rotation of the Earth, and yes, there is software that does that.

When it can do a Gary Oldman from Fifth Element, call me.
 

MichaelZWilliamson

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25sJPG.jpg
4 pocket pistols in .25 ACP, including the Beretta 418 (lower right) carried by James Bond. That's the one taken away from him in the second book/first movie as "nice and light...in a lady's handbag."

He was shooting it through a suppressor with rubber wipes (disks) to catch the gas, so it would be not much more powerful than a pellet gun. If you shot me with it and I noticed, I'd be a mite angry.
 

MichaelZWilliamson

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This is a sporting rifle. It's based on the 1888 Commission Rifle. After it was removed from service, Haenel in Suhl used old actions, and forged some of their own.

This was made in 1909. It is proofed for modern loads, has a nicely finished stock, double set triggers, and three selectable express sights at the rear, two at the front.

Haenel5.jpg


Haenel3.jpg


Haenel4.jpg


Haenel2.jpg


It loads with en bloc clips, shown protruding. The military ones would drop free once the 5 rounds were fired. The civilian gun has a trapdoor added to retain the clip for reuse.

These were made in four ascending grades. This is a Grade II. In 1910, it retailed for $65. One similar to this sold in Cabela's in August for $1350.

Haenel1.jpg
 

T. Trian

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This is a really bad idea with a handgun. As Trebor noted, a skilled fighter can engage the shooter within up to 21 feet before a typical shooter can react. I wouldn't take someone's gun away at 2 feet, but I would likely break their fingers in the process of deflecting it, and they would almost certainly not get a shot off to even miss.

There have been plenty of FoF drills similar to that where one guy has been the defender with a gun and the other one has been e.g. the attacker with a knife. It can be surprising just how good one has to be with, say, a pistol to get in even one good shot when a determined opponent charges in with a blade from 10 feet with intent to kill. 2 feet... the 14yo better be a great shot and the only way to get those skills is doing dry fire drills as often as possible, preferably daily, and go do some actual shooting at the range about once a week and even then shoot IPSC (or preferably something even better suited for practicing combat shooting) or some such instead of just shooting one target from 25 meters. I've found that the old adage "practice doesn't make perfect; perfect practice makes perfect" to be quite true when it comes to effective combat shooting.


If you need to use a gun, you need to kill someone. If you don't need to kill them, don't use a gun.

I agree that that is the general consensus among "normal" people but if the character is callous or perhaps a "teflon" (i.e. a certain specific kind of a psycopath who is unable to feel emotions such as pity, sympathy, empathy, and though may understand the concept of remorse and shame, is incapable of feeling them), well, I could see how such a person would shoot someone even without immediate risk to their own lives (the justification in such a character's head could be along the lines of "well, he threatened my health without provocation first and though he only intended to hurt me, that alone is reason enough for me to cause them permanent damage." You know, the kind of justification where someone thinks that because someone punched you once, since they instigated the matter, you would be justified in punching them twice in retaliation because if they hadn't made the first move, the situation wouldn't have come up in the first place). For instance, a gutshot can leave a person badly wounded and in serious pain but alive for hours upon hours (and even then, when death finally comes, the point of a "clean, dignified death" is likely long gone).

Those are just food for thought, ideas for various character types. I've written a teflon into one story and hence did some research on such people and what motivated them to do whatever it was that they did. It's surprising just how many of the real teflons enjoyed torturing and killing animals when they were kids. There was a local incident some 20 years ago when two 12yo boys kidnapped a 6yo from a grocery shop, took him to some abandoned house, basically tortured him to death, left the body on train tracks, and then went for a pizza.


And then there's the less calculated reactions to a physical threat: someone who's not familiar with violence and the way adrenaline affects their mind and body might freeze or go overboard (for example) when under the threat of physical harm, i.e. a guy threatens to break your nose and you put two rounds in his chest. Or if emotions run otherwise high (e.g. like what happened here in Finland: a random guy sees another guy trying to rape a woman and he gets a bit carried away with the beating and got charged with assault himself even though he didn't even cause permanent damage to the would-be rapist... yeah, we don't have a justice system, but a "justice" system).

Then again, how is one to know if an assailant will stop just at breaking your nose even if that was his verbal threat prior to the physical attack? Just as an example I could recount an incident that happened to me: I was out jogging with my wife, (K. Trian here on AW) it was a late afternoon, a bright day, and we were going through a nice neighborhood with expensive houses when I spotted three guys before us. One had fallen into a ditch, one was helping him up, and the third was just standing around with his back to us, all three of them drunk. There was a small bridge we needed to cross but when we passed the guys, the third suddenly tackled us against the railing with no prior warning. I shoved him to the side to give enough room for the wife to pass and move on (we've agreed long since that should something like this happen, I will deal with it and she will run to safety and if need be, call the police). Once she was in the clear, I found myself using the fence (Geoff Thompson's concept, search for it in youtube if you don't know it) to keep the guy from getting any closer than an arm's length (he was constantly moving forward and twice I had to shove him back while I assessed the situation). At this point his two buddies were back in the game and about a yard behind the lead jerk.

That was when I was faced with a conundrum: the guy before me was obviously aggressive, itching for a fight, I had no way of knowing whether his friends would join in should we tussle, and, of course, I had no way of knowing if any of them were armed in any way. All I knew was that there were three of them, just one of me, that at least two of them were bigger/more muscular than me (and I'm 6'1/185lbs & athletic) and they wanted me no good (it was impossible to gauge whether just one of them wanted to slap my face once or if all three of them intended to stomp on my head until it was flat). That's when I decided that should the main antagonist step close enough that my lead hand would touch his chest a third time, I'd deck him.

Luckily, I managed to resolve the situation verbally (asked if there was a problem, not sure if any of them caught my other hand hover close to my waistband) but the situation could have easily escalated due to several things (e.g. if I'd appeared less determined, if they'd been in a more aggressive mood, more drunk, less drunk, whatever).

I think a person needs to have a few simple plans (A, B, C etc) in case for such situations: you have your plan A (e.g. try to de-escalate verbally), if that fails, plan B (e.g. pre-emptive strike and leg it), and if that fails, plan C (e.g. lethal force), and all of those plans should come into play when a specific trigger has been engaged instead of by conscious thought (e.g. my trigger for plan B in that situation was if the guy had moved close enough that my lead hand would have touched his chest a third time) because sometimes an adrenaline dump can impair a person's thought process and that's when pre-learned triggers can be the dividing line between a mental lockjam/freezing and action.

I'm rambling now, aren't I? Sorry about that. I'm interested in self-defense (I hate that term btw because it's so passive) in general and have found some of these things quite useful when writing scenes of violence into a work of fiction. It might also be a good idea to google names like Geoff Thompson, Southnarc, Richard Dimitry etc. for good material and read some real accounts of violent lives (like aforementioned Thompson's autobiography, Watch My Back) if one strives for realism in fight scenes. Of course first-hand info is always a notch more authentic than second-hand stuff but the latter is safer and exposing yourself to the former on purpose is just... not worth it. Okay, I'll shut up now. :D
 

Stanmiller

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Thanks for the heads-up on the Thompson fence technique. I always carry a collapsible baton when I travel by air (TSA doesn't seem to mind, so far), and I see how the two together can be very effective.

Stan
 

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Of course a character may not choose the right course of action. Nor do people always do so. That's what makes an interesting story.

And the "Right" course can vary with a lot of factors.

But, the author should know the right course, if they are to direct the character.
 

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AKs-2.jpg
Two mostly finished AKs from my shop. The top one is an underfolder (the stock will fold under) and had some serious alignment issues, mostly resolved. Luckily, the standard tool for an AK is a hammer.

They need internal mechanisms, phosphate finished, and assembled. It's quite possible to build an AK in a well-equipped garage. The barrel would be the only tough part, but even that is doable--rifling cutters are a 17th century technology.

Coach3.jpg
A shotgun with damaged barrels can be shortened to a coach gun (which weren't common in reality, but abound in movies). However, the barrels must stay over the (US) minimum legal length of 18", the "regulation" or making both barrels shoot to same point of aim must be checked, and the muzzle must be resoldered, the barrels properly crowned inside and out to ensure straight shooting. Then the bluing must be touched up. I still need to reinstall a front bead sight.
 

Drachen Jager

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They need internal mechanisms, phosphate finished, and assembled. It's quite possible to build an AK in a well-equipped garage. The barrel would be the only tough part, but even that is doable--rifling cutters are a 17th century technology.

There is a town in Pakistan (near the Afghan border of course) where gunsmiths make a variety of weapons with hand tools. I think it was on 60 Minutes or something, they said a craftsman could make an automatic pistol in about two days, or an AK in about a week.
 

Trebor1415

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There is a town in Pakistan (near the Afghan border of course) where gunsmiths make a variety of weapons with hand tools. I think it was on 60 Minutes or something, they said a craftsman could make an automatic pistol in about two days, or an AK in about a week.

Yep, Mike ZW actually used it in one of his books. The Khyber Pass gunsmiths play a significant plot role in, IIRC, "Scope of Justice."
 

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What rifle bullets do:

What it will do, is punch a hole in one side, deform and mushroom to a larger size, thereby making a larger hole as it travels through tissue and doing dmage to organs. It will drag behind it a vacuem bubble that expands inside the body rending and damaging further tissue untill the velocity decreases and it catches up with the bullet and deflates. The flattened and mushrromed bullet will usually then exit leaving a larger hole than the entrance. Entrance wound of a .30 caliber rifle (.308 or 7.62 or .30/06, .30/30 7.62x39 (ak round)) will be .30 of an inch diameter. Exit may be half an inch or up to a size you could put your fist into.
People do not get there heads 'blown off', however a high velocity rifle like this with a shot to the head will do considerable damage, shattering the skull and leaving a even larger wound than a body shot, simply because the braincase/skull is full of basially a liquid matter. Liquid does not compress under pressure. With a high velcocity bullet there will be a lot of matter blown out the back. For the truely grisly, and for this I apolgise, with a head shot and a high velocity weapon the eyes may be forced out of the sockets under the pressure and sit outside the skull over the eye cavity.
This same bullet for example, if shot through an empty dixie cup balanced precariously on top of say, a coke can, will not move the cup at all. It will poke a .30 caliber hole in one side and out the other without moving it. If you shot the full coke can, because of the water content, it will explode like a handgrenade.
(While we are on the subject, brain matter is not grey. It looks a tan sort of colour. )
As I described above a rifle hit will drop someone even without hitting the spine or brain simply because of the amount of internal damage done and the shock received by organs and muscles adjacent to the wound area.


What handgun bullets do:
Handgun bullets travel at a much slower velocity and do not do the devastating damage a rifle will do. But trust me that you will still notice it right away.
A bullet shot from a pistol or revolver will not knock a determined adrenaline-fueled attacker down - unless it gets him in the right place. The right place is the nervous system. By this I mean in the neck or anywhere along the spine. This will drop him in his tracks.
A truly enraged or stressed individual may take a shot through the heart and still continue for many seconds on adrenaline before his brain starves of oxygen and he passes out. Wounds from a pistol that do not immediately incapacitate the nervous system, wills till be fatal, but may take a few seconds or minutes to cause death. A chest shot that takes out a lung but misses the spine will cuae death but not immediately. By the time he has died from it he may have killed the shooter.
This all depends on the state of mind of the victim. If he is unthreatened and unaware he is in danger he will succumb to these wounds quickly. A man in a fight may not, due to adrenaline and the determination of his character.

In general, the wounds receieved from a firearm are much more devastating than most people realise.
However, there is no firearm or bullet that can knock or blow a man off his feet. It is a matter of physics. People die because of damage done to their organs.
There is no shotgun or large caliber pistol that can throw a man accross a room with the impact of the bullet or shot. It will, however, divest him of his essential life support system in the blink of an eye.
 
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