Why the attraction for bad boys?

Marian Perera · Feb 11, 2014

Argh!

I just finished a romance where the hero was a big, commanding SEAL who had to protect the heroine from someone trying to kill her. OK, that was fine, and I expected him to be an alpha. He decided that to find out who wanted her dead, he'd have to speak to her ex-boyfriends, and that was OK too.

What I didn't expect was him deciding he'd have to warn them all never to come near her, thinking this through a rising red-hot rage, and then reluctantly making up his mind to pass the duty off to one of his friends. Because he'd want to punch out any man who'd had sex with the heroine previously.

At which point I wanted to slap him and say, "Dude. Unless the ex-boyfriend raped her, she wanted it. That doesn't automatically make him evil. That doesn't automatically make him some sort of stalker who'll be hanging around, obsessed with her, so that you have to go all HULK SMASH on him. He didn't know in advance that you'd come along and fall in love with her in the future. So chill the heck out."

And I was going along with the book until that point.

Wicked · Feb 12, 2014

Queen of Swords said:
Because he'd want to punch out any man who'd had sex with the heroine previously.

Ewwww. Psycho jealous nutjobs need not apply. As if the heroine must be his own personal little vessel of virginity.

That's not my definition of a bad boy. It's more like the beginning of a villain.

Marian Perera · Feb 12, 2014

Wicked said:
Ewwww. Psycho jealous nutjobs need not apply. As if the heroine must be his own personal little vessel of virginity.

Or as if she is soooo irresistible that any man who ever got near her in the past is now fixated on her and therefore has to be warned off with fists.

That she is beautiful, I buy. That she is The One for every man she has ever dated, I do not. If she was able to leave those men and move on without stalking them, then why shouldn't they be able to move on too? Maybe they're now happily married to someone else, so the "hero" can threaten them in front of their kids?

Ugh. I love it when the hero wants to protect the heroine, but not when he behaves like an attack dog.

On another note, I'm also tired of the heroes who maintain constant erections around the heroines. I mean, in this book they have sex three times a night and he's still rock hard at the end. That's not erotic, that's priapism. It just made me want to tell him, "God help you when she gets pregnant and doesn't want to do it so often, or at all."

mada · Feb 12, 2014

Queen of Swords said:
On another note, I'm also tired of the heroes who maintain constant erections around the heroines. I mean, in this book they have sex three times a night and he's still rock hard at the end. That's not erotic, that's priapism. It just made me want to tell him, "God help you when she gets pregnant and doesn't want to do it so often, or at all."

And they're always HUGE! I've long joked that I'm going to write a book about an overweight hero with a small package who works at McDonalds and has a video game habit. The trick being he's such a sweetheart you can't help but love him.

The more I write and read, the more I hate most heroes I come across!

beckethm · Feb 12, 2014

mada said:
And they're always HUGE! I've long joked that I'm going to write a book about an overweight hero with a small package who works at McDonalds and has a video game habit. The trick being he's such a sweetheart you can't help but love him.

The more I write and read, the more I hate most heroes I come across!

And no heroine ever finds that uncomfortable! Seriously, being impaled by a telephone pole is not a fantasy of mine.

Marian Perera · Feb 12, 2014

beckethm said:
And no heroine ever finds that uncomfortable! Seriously, being impaled by a telephone pole is not a fantasy of mine.

I once read a book where the hero was well over twelve inches, iirc. And the heroine had to get into a special position such that her body could allow him access to her womb, otherwise all of him wouldn't have fitted.

I just shook my head and thought, "at twelve-plus inches, we're past the uterus; we're into the Fallopian tubes here."

Bing Z · Feb 12, 2014

mada said:
And they're always HUGE! I've long joked that I'm going to write a book about an overweight hero with a small package who works at McDonalds and has a video game habit. The trick being he's such a sweetheart you can't help but love him.

The more I write and read, the more I hate most heroes I come across!

I've written about this dude, kind of. He's a basketball player and his on-court nickname is Big Mac. His off-court nick is French Fries. But he's a jerk. Iced Coffee is the sweetie.

sunandshadow · Feb 12, 2014

Queen of Swords said:
Argh!

I just finished a romance where the hero was a big, commanding SEAL who had to protect the heroine from someone trying to kill her. OK, that was fine, and I expected him to be an alpha. He decided that to find out who wanted her dead, he'd have to speak to her ex-boyfriends, and that was OK too.

What I didn't expect was him deciding he'd have to warn them all never to come near her, thinking this through a rising red-hot rage, and then reluctantly making up his mind to pass the duty off to one of his friends. Because he'd want to punch out any man who'd had sex with the heroine previously.

At which point I wanted to slap him and say, "Dude. Unless the ex-boyfriend raped her, she wanted it. That doesn't automatically make him evil. That doesn't automatically make him some sort of stalker who'll be hanging around, obsessed with her, so that you have to go all HULK SMASH on him. He didn't know in advance that you'd come along and fall in love with her in the future. So chill the heck out."

And I was going along with the book until that point.

One that has repeatedly come to my mind has the alpha and the heroine's father cooperating to keep her under house arrest until she agrees to marry the alpha and bear an heir for their clan. (The alpha is the adopted, chosen heir of the heroine's father, but the alpha can't officially inherit the clan unless the heroine marries him.) So to escape from being held prisoner and forced into marriage and pregnancy, the heroine goes to the nice beta guy who has been set up as the "lacking rival", and borrows his car. The alpha's reaction to this? Beat the beta guy until he ends up in traction in the hospital!

He didn't even feel bad about it afterwards, and this was a guy he had grown up with. That's the point where I went from thinking the alpha was a stubborn asshole who needed to accept that the heroine didn't want him to thinking he needed to be put down for everyone's protection before the end of the story.

Marian Perera · Feb 12, 2014

sunandshadow said:
One that has repeatedly come to my mind has the alpha and the heroine's father cooperating to keep her under house arrest until she agrees to marry the alpha and bear an heir for their clan.

This sounds like some kind of forced impregnation kink.

Which is totally fine for kink, but then I want that clear right up front so I don't mistake it for something different.

HSLane · Feb 12, 2014

I think it's "successful" bad boys that get the swoonage. A man that goes against the grain/society/culture/whatever and is successful (and the more 0's on his bank account) is obviously hot stuff. That social malcontent loser who shares a one bedroom apartment while struggling to find part-time work? Dry spell for him.

sunandshadow · Feb 12, 2014

Queen of Swords said:
This sounds like some kind of forced impregnation kink.

Which is totally fine for kink, but then I want that clear right up front so I don't mistake it for something different.

There wasn't much emphasis on the pregnancy part in the story; if anything it was more of a "dynasty" kink if that's a thing. There was thematic emphasis on the idea of "belonging to the leader". Though the vast majority of theme in the story had to do with imprisonment and duty vs. personal freedom. Pregnancy was filed under duty, particularly by the father.

Connie Chastain · Mar 29, 2014

I actually love to read, and write about, virtuous men. If the "bad" in "bad boys" is "evil lite," (and not just rebellious or surly) I'm not at all interested, and I can't imagine how they could be conceived of as romance heroes.

I've read blurbs for romance novels with heroes who are demons. My gosh, demons are about causing pain, injury and destruction for humans. That is their whole purpose. They can't be redeemed by the love of a good woman or anything else. Of course, an author may choose to portray demons unrealistically, as having some redeeming qualities, but why? Evil exists -- all you have to do is look at the news headlines. All the fake sugar-coating in the world doesn't hide it. Why not just write a hero who is a good man with realistic flaws?

I like virtuous heroes (not flawless ones, as that doesn't exist) who are tough, sweet, loving men who take their responsibilities seriously -- men of principle, courage, and passion who do not let their passions master them. Give me heroes who are the flesh and blood sons of Adam struggling to live up to the nobility of human nature and harness their less noble components. Because, to me, good is soooo much sexier than evil.

sunandshadow · Mar 29, 2014

Connie Chastain said:
I actually love to read, and write about, virtuous men. If the "bad" in "bad boys" is "evil lite," (and not just rebellious or surly) I'm not at all interested, and I can't imagine how they could be conceived of as romance heroes.

I've read blurbs for romance novels with heroes who are demons. My gosh, demons are about causing pain, injury and destruction for humans. That is their whole purpose. They can't be redeemed by the love of a good woman or anything else. Of course, an author may choose to portray demons unrealistically, as having some redeeming qualities, but why? Evil exists -- all you have to do is look at the news headlines. All the fake sugar-coating in the world doesn't hide it. Why not just write a hero who is a good man with realistic flaws?

I like virtuous heroes (not flawless ones, as that doesn't exist) who are tough, sweet, loving men who take their responsibilities seriously -- men of principle, courage, and passion who do not let their passions master them. Give me heroes who are the flesh and blood sons of Adam struggling to live up to the nobility of human nature and harness their less noble components. Because, to me, good is soooo much sexier than evil.

Opinions do differ about what constitutes evil. The Dungeons and Dragons system for example has a grid of 9 alignments - are you limiting your heroes only to people who are "lawful good", the ones behind the stereotype "good is boring"?

Google image search: d&d alignment. You can find an image that corresponds to fiction you are familiar with and see which character is what:
https://www.google.com/search?q=d&d...HgsASsioK4CQ&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAQ&biw=1024&bih=674

Consider Robin Hood - he's clearly conceived as a romantic hero, but he is definitely a thief. He's not forced into theft like Aladdin, he could easily be earning a living as a mercenary archer. Robin Hood is also opposed to the local law enforcement and bureaucracy. So he's not aligned lawful. He actively enjoys causing chaos and partying, so he's no neutral either, but chaotic. Specifically he's an example of a chaotic good alignment.

Now consider Captain Jack Sparrow from the Pirates of the Caribbean movies. Lots of people have a crush on him, not just because he's played by Johnny Depp, but also because as a character he has a great sense of humor and also a great sense of theatricality. He represents whimsy and magic. So again, he's definitely not lawful, and past neutral to chaotic. But he's not good either. He's not motivated to go out of his way to avoid killing others, nor does he have compunctions against trying to seduce an engaged or married woman into a one night stand. His favorite hobby is drunken carousing. Can't really be described as virtuous. Morally, he's neutral. So he'd be an example of a chaotic neutral alignment character who is still considered a romantic hero. Han Solo from Star Wars is another example of a charmingly roguish chaotic neutral character.

Now for a futuristic example, let's look at Captain Picard from Star Trek. He's definitely interested in law and order. He's also a pragmatist, not an idealist; he was conceived as a strong contrast to Captain Kirk, who regularly breaks rules for the sake of his ideals. Captain Picard's alignment is Lawful Neutral. And again, his character is considered romantically attractive by many fans.

This one you might not be familiar with, but I strongly recommend that anyone who hasn't seen Dr. Horrible's Sing-Along Blog should do so immediately!

Dr. Horrible, like Picard, is very fond of law and order. But he sees all the problems with the world, like prejudice and bullying, and he comes to the conclusion that he really needs to take over the world to make sure it is ruled properly. He's completely honest, open, and sane about being a super villain (well, sane aside from the usual emotional trauma from having been the victim of bullying and unrequited love and such). He's likeable and trustworthy... and his alignment is lawful evil, the same as Darth Vader.

Even chaotic evil characters, at the total other corner of the grid from where we started, can be charismatic, charming, sexy, clever, stylish devils. The Joker from the Batman universe has had various incarnations; the one in the recent movies is too disturbing to be considered attractive in pretty much any way, but some of the older incarnations of him were funny, creative, sweet to his girlfriend, and out to cause chaos in the most entertaining way possible. Loki is another villain whose more humorous versions were chaotic evil (and he has SO MANY FANGIRLS). The Mask from the Jim Carrey movie of the same name is a third example of an appealing chaotic evil character.

(I skipped a few of the combinations, but I think the point is illustrated; it's really hard to define "evil" in such a way that no evil characters are attractive, appealing, or romantic.)

Marian Perera · Mar 29, 2014

Connie Chastain said:
I've read blurbs for romance novels with heroes who are demons. My gosh, demons are about causing pain, injury and destruction for humans. That is their whole purpose. They can't be redeemed by the love of a good woman or anything else. Of course, an author may choose to portray demons unrealistically, as having some redeeming qualities, but why?

Same reason an author chooses to portray a vampire as having some redeeming qualities. Or a werewolf. Or an android. Or a necromancer. There's no law that says "characters belonging to X species/race must be evil in fiction, because only evil would be realistic".

Maybe demons, like Jessica Rabbit, aren't bad - they've just been written that way.

Evil exists -- all you have to do is look at the news headlines. All the fake sugar-coating in the world doesn't hide it. Why not just write a hero who is a good man with realistic flaws?

Because sometimes it's fun to shake things up.

How far do you think Anne Rice's Vampire Chronicles would have gotten if she'd written about all vampires being evil bloodsuckers devoid of any personality other than wanting to cause misery and death?

PamelaC · Mar 29, 2014

Connie Chastain said:
Of course, an author may choose to portray demons unrealistically, as having some redeeming qualities, but why? Evil exists -- all you have to do is look at the news headlines.

Evil definitely exists, but those aren't demons making the headlines, they are men (or women).

As for portraying demons "unrealistically", demons are not real, so it's impossible to portray them any other way. Like vampires, werewolves, zombies, etc, there are popular/traditional notions about demons, but they are imaginary creatures, so they can be portrayed however a writer wants.

Connie Chastain · Mar 29, 2014

PamelaC said:
Evil definitely exists, but those aren't demons making the headlines, they are men (or women).

As for portraying demons "unrealistically", demons are not real, so it's impossible to portray them any other way. Like vampires, werewolves, zombies, etc, there are popular/traditional notions about demons, but they are imaginary creatures, so they can be portrayed however a writer wants.

Vampires, werewolves and zombies are not real, but demons are acknowledged in religious traditions as entities or forces that visit evil, pain and suffering, torture, despair, destruction, etc., upon humankind. And since these things, which can be lumped together as "evil," exist, it stands to reason that evil originates somewhere. In any case, to portray the entities or forces whose sole purpose is to bring suffering and destruction as some sort of lover -- I simply can't relate to that.

Most bad boy heroes aren't attractive to me, but truly evil "heroes" -- the disconnect is too great for me to bridge.

I think it's a sad that there is so little appreciation for portrayals of men as good, decent and noble in the popular culture.

Sonsofthepharaohs · Mar 29, 2014

I used to steal my mum's romance novels when I was a kid, and some of these were from the 70s/80s, so the gender stereotypes and sexism were pretty rampant, but...

There was one where a girl was literally sold in marriage to the billionaire guy her dad was in debt to (presumably because she was sooo desirable, he considered her full payment of the hundreds of thousands he was owed). Anyway, the guy whisks his new wife off to his private island, where he proceeds to try and woo her by proving he's not a horrendous douche really (notwithstanding the constant threat hanging over her father if she should leave the marriage). He doesn't make as swift progress as he'd like though, so just as he's starting to win her over.... he demands his conjugal rights and rapes her. Then, consumed with guilt, he leaves on an extended business trip for months, during which time she 'gets over it' and realises how much she loves him.

WTF??

That is not the kind of bad boy romance I can get behind.

It should be no surprise that this novel is called The Beast. I kid you not.

sunandshadow · Mar 29, 2014

Connie Chastain said:
I think it's a sad that there is so little appreciation for portrayals of men as good, decent and noble in the popular culture.

I don't think there's actually a shortage of liking for characters who are truly good people. It can be difficult to put a character like that into a protagonist/antagonist/contagonist/whatever role, because often the most moral choice in many real-life situations is passive endurance, trying to keep smiling and encourage others rather than focus on one's own problems. Good people are either at piece with themselves or anxious, but they don't generally have a strong motivation to do something or a strong internal conflict, both important ingredients of an active protagonist.

Protagonists typically think that they can or should force change oh the world, which is an inherently arrogant thing to think. Good people don't generally go around kicking butt. Paladins, missionaries, and freedom fighters or terrorists with a noble cause, some of the most active roles which are labeled "good", are often considered to technically fail at being good due to being jerks, close-minded and/or short-sighted.

There are a couple of story archetypes which do work with really good people as protagonists. The hapless person whose special ability misfires half the time and temps villains to challenge or abduct them the other half of the time is one such archetype. The matchmaker or problem-solver who runs around helping everyone until their own problems build up to a head and meanwhile they have attracted the attention of the villain by disrupting his plans is another such archetype. But commonly the truly good characters are sidekicks or guardians of the actual protagonist who is more flawed and has some lesson they need to learn about what they are doing wrong. Sometimes they get romances too, just not usually the central one of the story.

Marian Perera · Mar 30, 2014

Connie Chastain said:
Vampires, werewolves and zombies are not real, but demons are acknowledged in religious traditions as entities or forces that visit evil, pain and suffering, torture, despair, destruction, etc., upon humankind.

I am not religious, and therefore I don't feel any need to hew to religious traditions when it comes to writing. As far as I'm concerned, demons are as real as vampires, werewolves, zombies, etc.

Personally, I don't write paranormal romance, so I don't have any vampires or demons in my stories. But my novels still fly in the face of established religious tradition. They're set in a world based on the Garden of Eden, where the serpent's unsealing of the Tree of Knowledge is a gift that allowed people to gain the knowledge of what was good and evil. Whatever religious tradition might say about that, in my world, it's a blessing, not a Fall.

And since these things, which can be lumped together as "evil," exist, it stands to reason that evil originates somewhere.

I'm afraid I see no logical reason to go from "evil originates somewhere" to "it must originate from demons" to "therefore, a demon cannot be the hero of a novel".

Then again, I subscribe to the William Golding theory of evil - that it's something which comes from within us, just like good, rather than something demons create.

In any case, to portray the entities or forces whose sole purpose is to bring suffering and destruction as some sort of lover -- I simply can't relate to that.

A lot of people see things differently, so they can relate.

Connie Chastain · Mar 30, 2014

sunandshadow said:
I don't think there's actually a shortage of liking for characters who are truly good people. It can be difficult to put a character like that into a protagonist/antagonist/contagonist/whatever role, because often the most moral choice in many real-life situations is passive endurance, trying to keep smiling and encourage others rather than focus on one's own problems. Good people are either at piece with themselves or anxious, but they don't generally have a strong motivation to do something or a strong internal conflict, both important ingredients of an active protagonist.

Protagonists typically think that they can or should force change oh the world, which is an inherently arrogant thing to think. Good people don't generally go around kicking butt. Paladins, missionaries, and freedom fighters or terrorists with a noble cause, some of the most active roles which are labeled "good", are often considered to technically fail at being good due to being jerks, close-minded and/or short-sighted.

Decent, honorable men as heroes used to be the standard in fiction and drama and the bad guy hero was rare. I think this was turned on its head the last half of the 20th century because of the coarsening and tarnishing of pop culture -- in fact, of the wider culture as a whole -- during the same timeframe.

I guess it's all, or at least partly, how you conceptualize decency or goodness. I don't see it as passive at all, simply non-aggressive.

In any case, I'm really enjoying this discussion. It's interesting to see other people's ideas about things that shape characters or stories.

Connie Chastain · Mar 30, 2014

Queen of Swords said:
I'm afraid I see no logical reason to go from "evil originates somewhere" to "it must originate from demons" to "therefore, a demon cannot be the hero of a novel".

Then again, I subscribe to the William Golding theory of evil - that it's something which comes from within us, just like good, rather than something demons create.

A lot of people see things differently, so they can relate.

Just a quick clarification, in case I misstated earlier. I don't think evil is created by demons. Evil pre-exists mankind, and even demons. They are simply the entities or forces that convey evil into the realm of human existence.

Marian Perera · Mar 30, 2014

Connie Chastain said:
Just a quick clarification, in case I misstated earlier. I don't think evil is created by demons. Evil pre-exists mankind, and even demons. They are simply the entities or forces that convey evil into the realm of human existence.

Whether it's created by them or conveyed by them, my point stands.

No writer is under any obligation to conform to someone else's religious beliefs. If a writer gets an idea for a story where Satan is the romantic hero, I don't see any reason for that writer not to go ahead and write it.

It's a big literary world out there. I think there's room for both the fiction that stays within boundaries and the fiction that shatters them.

Connie Chastain · Mar 30, 2014

Queen of Swords said:
Whether it's created by them or conveyed by them, my point stands.

No writer is under any obligation to conform to someone else's religious beliefs. If a writer gets an idea for a story where Satan is the romantic hero, I don't see any reason for that writer not to go ahead and write it.

It's a big literary world out there. I think there's room for both the fiction that stays within boundaries and the fiction that shatters them.

I'm not aware that anything I wrote suggested anyone is obligated to anything. I was expressing my opinion about the subject under discussion. If my having an opinion and expressing it is offensive, maybe I misunderstood the reason for this forum. Sorry.

Marian Perera · Mar 30, 2014

Connie Chastain said:
I'm not aware that anything I wrote suggested anyone is obligated to anything. I was expressing my opinion about the subject under discussion. If my having an opinion and expressing it is offensive, maybe I misunderstood the reason for this forum. Sorry.

It's not that it's offensive, but if you're saying, "In religious tradition, demons are evil" to explain why you're puzzled that anyone would write about demons in a positive role, my response would be, "Writers aren't obliged to follow anyone's religious traditions when designing their worlds."

I wouldn't want you to leave the forum, because I think this is an interesting discussion, but if there's a debate about whether or not writers should push the envelope with bad-boy heroes, I don't think religious tradition is very relevant to that discussion. Unless the writers are planning to pitch to inspirational romance publishers. Or all the writers share the same religious beliefs, and therefore it's meaningful to them how religions typically portray the characters they're writing about.

Sonsofthepharaohs · Mar 30, 2014

GAH, why does everything always have to come back to politics and religion???

*puts colander on head and climbs into biscuit tin*

Why the attraction for bad boys?

starting over

Outcast Rogue

starting over

Getting back in the groove

starting over

illiterate primate

Impractical Fantasy Animal

starting over

Impractical Fantasy Animal

Impractical Fantasy Animal

starting over

Still writing the ancient Egyptian tetralogy

Impractical Fantasy Animal

starting over

starting over

starting over

Still writing the ancient Egyptian tetralogy