When an author is asked to "do their own marketing"

All I know is that my books get a lot more attention in the way of getting reviewed by the Library Journal, etc. than it would if I tried to self-publish them.

It gets distributed to reviewers who wouldn't give them a second look otherwise and I get sales based on a lot more than me weeping about it on FB or on Twitter. It sells hundreds of print copies to bookstores without me pleading on the phone or begging for a chance to get on their shelves.

I'm always amazed how many authors dismiss the business of publishing. A publisher, a GOOD publisher wants to sell your book and will do the best to their abilities to make it happen. Because then THEY make money as well as the author.

But what do I know?

I've also found small marketing things my publisher did for my book just by vanity googling myself, but my publisher never told me directly they were doing these little things for me.

They made a very beautiful banner ad of my book that was displayed on one site, but if I hadn't googled searched myself I would never have seen it.

I only found out they'd arranged a review in Romantic Times Magazine for the print release of my novel, when I contacted RTM myself in my own efforts to promo.

So your publisher may be doing things for you you don't even know about.

gingerwoman said:

I only found out they'd arranged a review in Romantic Times Magazine for the print release of my novel, when I contacted RTM myself in my own efforts to promo.

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That's why it's a good idea to liaise with your publisher's publicist--it does help avoid such duplications of effort.

I keep hearing this is required up and down, from self pubs all the way to the big five. After hearing all this, I've been looking into what this actually entails.

From what I can tell, what marketing for an author means is this:

• Have a website with your books on it. Optional: post free stories or excerpts on your site.
• Blog regularly.
• Use social media (facebook, twitter) where you talk about writing, about your books, and yourself regularly.
• Go to conventions. Give readings from your book, sit on panels and discuss your work, and sell your book in the dealer's room.
• Optional: create a book trailer.

The idea is if someone googles your name or your book, they should have you shoved up their nose. A person should have one easy place to both find out who you are, what books you've written, and what you're doing (professionally).

From what I can tell, the publisher's job is to print the book and send it to stores/anyone who buys it through their site. Your book is presented on the publisher's website, and they may have a small bio about you/link to your website. If they're the big five, then they may have a publicist's office that handles paid advertisements.

"Why have an Agent?" This is why:

Randomhouse Submission Guidelines said:

Random House LLC does not accept unsolicited submissions, proposals, manuscripts, or submission queries via e-mail at this time.
If you would like to have your work or manuscript considered for publication by a major book publisher, we recommend that you work with an established literary agent.

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An agent's job is to pitch your book to a publisher. I imagine they also handle all things contract related.

Rechan said:

I keep hearing this is required up and down, from self pubs all the way to the big five. After hearing all this, I've been looking into what this actually entails.

From what I can tell, what marketing for an author means is this:

• Have a website with your books on it. Optional: post free stories or excerpts on your site.
• Blog regularly.
• Use social media (facebook, twitter) where you talk about writing, about your books, and yourself regularly.
• Go to conventions. Give readings from your book, sit on panels and discuss your work, and sell your book in the dealer's room.
• Optional: create a book trailer.

The idea is if someone googles your name or your book, they should have you shoved up their nose. A person should have one easy place to both find out who you are, what books you've written, and what you're doing (professionally).

Click to expand...

There's often a distinction made between marketing and promotion. Marketing is usually the stuff that's paid for, like ads; promotion is usually the free stuff, like signings and readings.

The things you list aren't required by the Big Five or by any other good publisher: they're good, but not essential. If you feel unable to blog, for whatever reason, then it shouldn't get in the way of you getting a publishing contract. Your publisher will work around you.

If your publisher tells you otherwise, then you have to consider if your publisher is going to be able to fulfill its duties in an effective and professional manner.

From what I can tell, the publisher's job is to print the book and send it to stores/anyone who buys it through their site.

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Good publishers do a huge amount more than taking care of printing and distribution.

They edit, copy edit, proofread, design, typeset, format, market, print, distribute, and a whole lot of other things besides. Publishing is a very complex business, and it requires a lot of skill and experience to do well.

If you've been told otherwise, you've been misinformed.

Your book is presented on the publisher's website, and they may have a small bio about you/link to your website. If they're the big five, then they may have a publicist's office that handles paid advertisements.

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I don't think you've got this quite straight.

If you're being published by one of the Big Five your book will be in the hands of the marketing department from very early on in the production process. In addition, you'll have a publicist assigned, a whole team of sales people will work on selling it into every retail outlet they can find.

Publicists don't usually deal with paid ads: that usually comes under the marketing department's responsibilities (but there's a whole lot more to marketing than paying for ads).

The good independents also have marketing departments, publicity staff, and sales teams.

Good publishers which don't have their own marketing departments will usually hire in marketing consultants and publicists to work on their books. They'll work with outside sales teams to get their books out there.

Publishers which don't have any marketing or promotional support, or any sales teams or distribution, are generally not worth publishing with. They can't do anything for you that you can't do for yourself, via self publishing.

"Why have an Agent?" This is why:

An agent's job is to pitch your book to a publisher. I imagine they also handle all things contract related.

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Agents do a whole lot more than pitching books and handling contractual details. Carole Blake's book From Pitch to Publication is a little out of date now, but it does give people who haven't worked in publishing a good idea of all that an agent does for her author-clients: you might like to read it.

gingerwoman said:

So your publisher may be doing things for you you don't even know about.

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And to note also that your publishers publicity department may well be able to gain access to publicity opportunities that you can't do yourself.

Old Hack said:

There's often a distinction made between marketing and promotion. Marketing is usually the stuff that's paid for, like ads; promotion is usually the free stuff, like signings and readings.

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This thread is the first place I've seen this distinction made. I mean, there are quite a few books that are about "Marketing your book", and they use the word marketing, not promoting.

The things you list aren't required by the Big Five or by any other good publisher: they're good, but not essential.

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Well, I'm not saying they're required. It's just what is meant when discussing an author doing their own promotion.

Good publishers do a huge amount more than taking care of printing and distribution.

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They edit, copy edit, proofread, design, typeset, format, market, print, distribute, and a whole lot of other things besides. Publishing is a very complex business, and it requires a lot of skill and experience to do well.[/quote]

If you've been told otherwise, you've been misinformed.[/quote]
You said good publishers do all this. What do typical publishers do? Because you keep using this "Good" distinction. Do "good" = almost all publishers?

It also should be noted that a publisher's marketing department works with the writer to direct the book to the appropriate market and lets face it, if you've written a book you should know where and how to sell it better than anyone. You help them and they can do the most for you. It's simply a matter of knowing your audience and how to reach them.

I've worked with one of the big five and they even hired me a NYC publicist. But that was back in the old days. They did expect me to be available for all appearances. They paid costs but not my time. Its a lot of work and commitment and frankly not much of pay off in the end.

Rechan said:

This thread is the first place I've seen this distinction made. I mean, there are quite a few books that are about "Marketing your book", and they use the word marketing, not promoting.

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The distinction isn't always made clear, but in general, that's what those terms mean. I speak as someone who has worked as a publicist and later as a marketing director, always in publishing.

Some of the books I've seen which talk about authors marketing their own books are woefully inadequate. Others, like Alison Baverstock's, are brilliant. Do buy it, if you haven't already.

Well, I'm not saying they're required. It's just what is meant when discussing an author doing their own promotion.

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Ah, yes. Of course you were. You're right.

They edit, copy edit, proofread, design, typeset, format, market, print, distribute, and a whole lot of other things besides. Publishing is a very complex business, and it requires a lot of skill and experience to do well.

If you've been told otherwise, you've been misinformed.

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You said good publishers do all this. What do typical publishers do? Because you keep using this "Good" distinction. Do "good" = almost all publishers?

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No, "good" does not include "almost all publishers". Sadly.

"Good publishers" and "typical publishers" are not two distinct sets. The one does not exclude the other.

All the trade publishers I know of and have worked for who publish people well do all the things I listed, and more besides.

The only group of publishers I can think of which don't do all those things are publishers which aren't very good at publishing. The books they publish tend to look amateurish and sell badly. Would you want to be published badly? I wouldn't.

Relayer said:

It also should be noted that a publisher's marketing department works with the writer to direct the book to the appropriate market

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That isn't always the case.

Sometimes authors can't work to help sell their books (for example, authors who die before their books are published); others won't help (some writers feel unable to help; some are so bad at it that they would do more harm than good if they tried). Even then, a publisher's marketing, publicity and sales departments would still work to sell copies of their books.

(I've assumed you're not using "marketing" in the same way that I do, because that would imply that authors are expected to pay for ads and various promotions, which they're not--at least, not at good publishers.)

and lets face it, if you've written a book you should know where and how to sell it better than anyone.

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WHY should you know this? If you have no experience or expertise in sales, marketing and promotion, why would you have the first clue how to do this?

You help them and they can do the most for you. It's simply a matter of knowing your audience and how to reach them.

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If you can help, and they want you to help, then do so.

If you don't know what you're doing then make that clear, ask what you can do, and don't be afraid to say that you can't do what has been asked of you if you feel you'd be really bad at it, or that you'd be horribly uncomfortable doing it.

I've worked with one of the big five and they even hired me a NYC publicist. But that was back in the old days. They did expect me to be available for all appearances. They paid costs but not my time. Its a lot of work and commitment and frankly not much of pay off in the end.

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Don't assume that this isn't done these days. Of course it is! It's just done less often, and with more planning and thought now than was perhaps the case twenty years ago.

It can pay off, if it's done well (and, usually, if the writer has an extensive backlist to make the most of the efforts expended). But book tours and the like aren't the most effective ways of selling books. There are better ways to do it.

Cathy C said:

(you didn't think those "Look Inside" hyperlinks or "Buy Three for the Price of Two" on Amazon are free, did you?

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I didn't know that publishers pay for the Look Inside feature. I do know that self-publishers have that feature and don't pay anything specifically for it (obviously retailers are taking their cut for selling our books). I don't even remember there being a way of opting out of it for self-publishers. So I guess I am surprised that's something that trade publishers are charged for.

Old Hack said:

.

That isn't always the case.

Sometimes authors can't work to help sell their books (for example, authors who die before their books are published); others won't help (some writers feel unable to help; some are so bad at it that they would do more harm than good if they tried). Even then, a publisher's marketing, publicity and sales departments would still work to sell copies of their books.

(I've assumed you're not using "marketing" in the same way that I do, because that would imply that authors are expected to pay for ads and various promotions, which they're not--at least, not at good publishers.)



WHY should you know this? If you have no experience or expertise in sales, marketing and promotion, why would you have the first clue how to do this?



If you can help, and they want you to help, then do so.

If you don't know what you're doing then make that clear, ask what you can do, and don't be afraid to say that you can't do what has been asked of you if you feel you'd be really bad at it, or that you'd be horribly uncomfortable doing it.



Don't assume that this isn't done these days. Of course it is! It's just done less often, and with more planning and thought now than was perhaps the case twenty years ago.

It can pay off, if it's done well (and, usually, if the writer has an extensive backlist to make the most of the efforts expended). But book tours and the like aren't the most effective ways of selling books. There are better ways to do it.

Click to expand...

Dead authors can't sell books, good to know.

PR people are hired for big name authors or celebrities these days I am sure - they are not hired for anything less these days I am also sure. That's why I mentioned it.

Book tours, radio shows, TV interviews are more effective than any wasted time blogging or tweeting I can only assume.

But the most effective marketing/promotion tool is excerpts of material or unrelated articles (on any subject but still including author and bio tagline) to targeted magazines. This is a prime example of using your expertise as author (authority) of your book to help marketing department as well as helping target reviewers - i.e. people who would be interested in your subject matter but are not reviewers persea for instance advice columnists, talk show hosts, etc. who can bring up your work in passing, in a column on a related matter. Yes you as an author should be able to direct the marketing dept. to mags, internet sites, radio shows, reviewers, local clubs or national organizations, local newspapers... to target marketing of your work of fiction or non-fiction. Yoga magazine for your inspirational novel, culinary mags because you use food as a metaphor etc. If you are clueless in this, really, how well did you research your work, know your audience, competition etc. Clueless about HOW TO market is one thing, clueless as an author to who you are writing for is another.

Payoff, - even with extensive backlist, perhaps. But my book tour was weeks, plus radio interviews by phone etc. If you have a full time job, freelancer, or kids or anything else you have to do besides promote a book, than no - your royalties won't make up for time loss wages or personal expense. Not saying not to do it, but it comes at a cost. Maybe you will see that return in the long run, maybe you won't. Remember you also have to prepare for interviews (live questions) public appearance, or lectures or readings. All time not paid for. Big five see that return for that investment - you however may not.

Relayer said:

Dead authors can't sell books, good to know.

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Were you snarking at me there? I do hope you weren't.

PR people are hired for big name authors or celebrities these days I am sure - they are not hired for anything less these days I am also sure. That's why I mentioned it.

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You're right and wrong.

Publishers don't hire publicists ("PR people" are a different thing) for every single book they publish: only for the bigger authors, or for celebrities.

But they employ whole departments of publicists, and every book which is published will be assigned a publicist. It might be that the publicist does little more than sending out review copies; it might be that the publicist arranges book tours, interviews and personal appearances; most books get something in between.

Book tours, radio shows, TV interviews are more effective than any wasted time blogging or tweeting I can only assume.

Click to expand...

Book tours aren't necessarily effective: if no one knows about them, no one will turn up. So they have to be partnered with interviews (not just TV: radio and print are useful too), articles and reviews, along with a decent amount of appropriate local advertising (which can just be a poster in the bookshop's window, but which is often more).

Blogging and tweeting can be very effective, if you blog and tweet to the right people and do it well. In six months of tweeting I got offered all sorts of work (talks, articles, and so on), which was very lucrative for me, and I didn't even have a book to promote.

But the most effective marketing/promotion tool is excerpts of material or unrelated articles (on any subject but still including author and bio tagline) to targeted magazines.

Click to expand...

What makes you think this is the most effective promotion tool? What are you basing your assumption on? I'm interested to know.

I'm not saying that it's not effective--I think it can be very effective: I am just interested to hear why you think it is so important.

This is a prime example of using your expertise as author (authority) of your book to help marketing department as well as helping target reviewers - i.e. people who would be interested in your subject matter but are not reviewers persea for instance advice columnists, talk show hosts, etc. who can bring up your work in passing, in a column on a related matter.

Click to expand...

"persea"?

You're using "marketing" where I'd use "promotion".

Yes you as an author should be able to direct the marketing dept. to mags, internet sites, radio shows, reviewers, local clubs or national organizations, local newspapers... to target marketing of your work of fiction or non-fiction. Yoga magazine for your inspirational novel, culinary mags because you use food as a metaphor etc.

Click to expand...

Please don't try to "direct" your publisher's marketing department; you definitely shouldn't try to get them to the places you list. If you "direct" them you're at risk of making them feel like you're bossing them about, and then they're not going to be very motivated to sell your book; and the things you're suggesting are, I think, things that a publicity department would work on, not a marketing department.

A marketing department would arrange advertising, that's true: but they generally wouldn't pay for advertising in the consumer-focused outlets you describe. Their advertising budget is usually more effective when spent on ads which people in the book trade see: if you get books on bookshop shelves you get it in front of its potential readers in the most effective way possible, and increase both in-person sales and online sales too.

If your publisher's publicist works on these things with you then again, you really shouldn't be "directing" them: you should be working with them. They'll send out review copies to almost everyone you ask them to; they'll contact people who might be interested in interviewing you or featuring your book, and will ask for a list of contacts that you have. But they won't write articles for you, so the more interest they generate the more work you're going to have--often for no pay. While it's good to make a splash, don't over-extend yourself here.

If you are clueless in this, really, how well did you research your work, know your audience, competition etc. Clueless about HOW TO market is one thing, clueless as an author to who you are writing for is another.

Click to expand...

With non-fiction it's pretty much standard now for authors to understand where their book fits into the market, and to know their potential audience.

With fiction? Not so much.

It can help, of course: but in my direct experience, many novelists are clueless about promoting their own work, and can actually hinder a publisher's efforts if they have too much of a plan.

Payoff, - even with extensive backlist, perhaps. But my book tour was weeks, plus radio interviews by phone etc. If you have a full time job, freelancer, or kids or anything else you have to do besides promote a book, than no - your royalties won't make up for time loss wages or personal expense. Not saying not to do it, but it comes at a cost. Maybe you will see that return in the long run, maybe you won't. Remember you also have to prepare for interviews (live questions) public appearance, or lectures or readings. All time not paid for. Big five see that return for that investment - you however may not.

Click to expand...

Of course publishers are going to want you to do all you can to promote your own work. But you can say no if it costs you too much.

As I think I said earlier, such extended tours work best for authors with an extensive backlist. Authors who only have one book out might well find that it costs them too much in other ways to make it worthwhile.

Old Hack said:

Were you snarking at me there? I do hope you weren't.

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Yes you are right, dead authors can not help sell their books. This of course is obvious



[/QUOTE]You're right and wrong.

Publishers don't hire publicists ("PR people" are a different thing) for every single book they publish: only for the bigger authors, or for celebrities.

But they employ whole departments of publicists, and every book which is published will be assigned a publicist. It might be that the publicist does little more than sending out review copies; it might be that the publicist arranges book tours, interviews and personal appearances; most books get something in between.

Book tours aren't necessarily effective: if no one knows about them, no one will turn up. So they have to be partnered with interviews (not just TV: radio and print are useful too), articles and reviews, along with a decent amount of appropriate local advertising (which can just be a poster in the bookshop's window, but which is often more).

Blogging and tweeting can be very effective, if you blog and tweet to the right people and do it well. In six months of tweeting I got offered all sorts of work (talks, articles, and so on), which was very lucrative for me, and I didn't even have a book to promote.



What makes you think this is the most effective promotion tool? What are you basing your assumption on? I'm interested to know.

I'm not saying that it's not effective--I think it can be very effective: I am just interested to hear why you think it is so important. [/QUOTE]



[/QUOTE]"persea"?[/QUOTE]

Pardon me - I did not think I was going to be edited. Per say.

[/QUOTE]You're using "marketing" where I'd use "promotion". [/QUOTE]

A PR was hired for me, I worked "with" the marketing/publicity department at McGraw-Hill. I did and do my own self-promotion. Sorry if I confused the situation by lumping all these "titles" together.


[/QUOTE]Please don't try to "direct" your publisher's marketing department; you definitely shouldn't try to get them to the places you list. If you "direct" them you're at risk of making them feel like you're bossing them about, and then they're not going to be very motivated to sell your book; and the things you're suggesting are, I think, things that a publicity department would work on, not a marketing department.[/QUOTE]

Although I believe in assertiveness with everyone working on your behalf to publish your book, I meant the word direct as in offering suggestions - leading. Semantics, really.

[/QUOTE]A marketing department would arrange advertising, that's true: but they generally wouldn't pay for advertising in the consumer-focused outlets you describe. Their advertising budget is usually more effective when spent on ads which people in the book trade see: if you get books on bookshop shelves you get it in front of its potential readers in the most effective way possible, and increase both in-person sales and online sales too.

Agreed

[/QUOTE]If your publisher's publicist works on these things with you then again, you really shouldn't be "directing" them: you should be working with them. They'll send out review copies to almost everyone you ask them to; they'll contact people who might be interested in interviewing you or featuring your book, and will ask for a list of contacts that you have. But they won't write articles for you, so the more interest they generate the more work you're going to have--often for no pay. While it's good to make a splash, don't over-extend yourself here. [/QUOTE]

Agreed.

Once again "directing" was perhaps a poor word choice or you just misunderstood my intention.

Of course they won't write articles for you??? They will write ad copy which they sometimes may let you check or not.

Over extend - yes - remember it only lasts 15 minutes according to Andy, so go for it.

[/QUOTE]With non-fiction it's pretty much standard now for authors to understand where their book fits into the market, and to know their potential audience.

With fiction? Not so much.

It can help, of course: but in my direct experience, many novelists are clueless about promoting their own work, and can actually hinder a publisher's efforts if they have too much of a plan.[/QUOTE]

I fear my response to this will insult lazy amateurish writers who believe their masterpieces should be recognized without a monumental effort on everyone's behalf. Including taking the time to read their competition and follow their marketing/promo tactics including who is publishing their work and which agents represent them. Research is research. If you do it to write, do it to sell. The clues they need are here on this very website. I just learned about the importance of web presence on a thread here.

This is one reason I stated getting your name on any byline in any print with your book title next to your name is good free (or even paid) advertizing whether its a major mag and a product review or a local paper that accepts freelance columns, movie or restaurant reviews, etc. I read on this website that blogging and tweeting aren't that helpful as this proven type of self promotion. For one thing, you are at least reaching people who read print and aren't surfing the web 24/7/365. JMO - not written in stone anywhere.


[/QUOTE]Of course publishers are going to want you to do all you can to promote your own work. But you can say no if it costs you too much. [/QUOTE]

Agreed and evident. I was merely pointing out to be careful what you wish for. Business travel sucks, sitting at bookstore table is tedious, having to do a reading or lecture or interview is nerve racking. Unexpected expenses creep up, etc. etc.

I'm just describing my experience to someone asking a question. You accuse me of snarking, but you are critiquing my spelling, arguing semantics of job descriptions although I agree they are different they are also similar and germaine to the topic at hand. And lastly responding to my reply with repetition - i.e. below. I'm not looking for a problem, just stating opinions.

[/QUOTE]As I think I said earlier, such extended tours work best for authors with an extensive backlist. Authors who only have one book out might well find that it costs them too much in other ways to make it worthwhile.[/QUOTE]

With regards to social media - there are many authors out there who would do well to stay off Twitter and Facebook because they don't d themselves any favours, and indeed can do more harm than good to their careers.

Relayer, you need to redo your quote tags: you don't need the forward slash "/" on your opening quote tags, only on the closing ones.

I'll correct it in this quote, because at the moment it's almost impossible for people to work out what you're saying, and what you're quoting.

So, for those of you following along at home, here's Relayer's comment with the quote tags corrected (I hope--it might take me a couple of tries to get it right, so do bear with me if I have to edit this), and my reply.

Relayer said:

Old Hack said:

Were you snarking at me there? I do hope you weren't.

Click to expand...

Yes you are right, dead authors can not help sell their books. This of course is obvious

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You didn't answer my question.

I advise you to think very carefully before answering me.

You're right and wrong.

Publishers don't hire publicists ("PR people" are a different thing) for every single book they publish: only for the bigger authors, or for celebrities.

But they employ whole departments of publicists, and every book which is published will be assigned a publicist. It might be that the publicist does little more than sending out review copies; it might be that the publicist arranges book tours, interviews and personal appearances; most books get something in between.

Click to expand...

Book tours aren't necessarily effective: if no one knows about them, no one will turn up. So they have to be partnered with interviews (not just TV: radio and print are useful too), articles and reviews, along with a decent amount of appropriate local advertising (which can just be a poster in the bookshop's window, but which is often more).

Blogging and tweeting can be very effective, if you blog and tweet to the right people and do it well. In six months of tweeting I got offered all sorts of work (talks, articles, and so on), which was very lucrative for me, and I didn't even have a book to promote.

Click to expand...

What makes you think this is the most effective promotion tool? What are you basing your assumption on? I'm interested to know.

I'm not saying that it's not effective--I think it can be very effective: I am just interested to hear why you think it is so important.

Click to expand...

"persea"?

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Pardon me - I did not think I was going to be edited. Per say.

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I wasn't editing you, I just didn't understand what you meant. And just so you know, you've still not got it right.

You're using "marketing" where I'd use "promotion".

Click to expand...

A PR was hired for me, I worked "with" the marketing/publicity department at McGraw-Hill. I did and do my own self-promotion. Sorry if I confused the situation by lumping all these "titles" together.

Click to expand...

We've discussed the distinction between marketing and promotion earlier in the thread: for example, I wrote,

Old Hack said:

There's often a distinction made between marketing and promotion. Marketing is usually the stuff that's paid for, like ads; promotion is usually the free stuff, like signings and readings.

Click to expand...

If you'd read the rest of the thread you'd have noticed it, I'd have thought.

Please don't try to "direct" your publisher's marketing department; you definitely shouldn't try to get them to the places you list. If you "direct" them you're at risk of making them feel like you're bossing them about, and then they're not going to be very motivated to sell your book; and the things you're suggesting are, I think, things that a publicity department would work on, not a marketing department.

Click to expand...

Although I believe in assertiveness with everyone working on your behalf to publish your book, I meant the word direct as in offering suggestions - leading. Semantics, really.

Click to expand...

Ah--I didn't read it as that at all. Thank you for clarifying.

In future, please don't change people's quotes in any way without making clear that you've made that change. It's not appropriate.

A marketing department would arrange advertising, that's true: but they generally wouldn't pay for advertising in the consumer-focused outlets you describe. Their advertising budget is usually more effective when spent on ads which people in the book trade see: if you get books on bookshop shelves you get it in front of its potential readers in the most effective way possible, and increase both in-person sales and online sales too.

Click to expand...

Agreed

If your publisher's publicist works on these things with you then again, you really shouldn't be "directing" them: you should be working with them. They'll send out review copies to almost everyone you ask them to; they'll contact people who might be interested in interviewing you or featuring your book, and will ask for a list of contacts that you have. But they won't write articles for you, so the more interest they generate the more work you're going to have--often for no pay. While it's good to make a splash, don't over-extend yourself here.

Click to expand...

Agreed.

Once again "directing" was perhaps a poor word choice or you just misunderstood my intention.

Of course they won't write articles for you??? They will write ad copy which they sometimes may let you check or not.

Over extend - yes - remember it only lasts 15 minutes according to Andy, so go for it.

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Again you've added an emphasis to my words which wasn't there originally, but haven't pointed out that you've made this change. Please: do not do this.

Note that I was discussing work that publicists would do for a writer, not that which marketing people do: so I was not talking about ads, or ad copy: I was talking about interviews and articles. If a publicist arranges for an author to write an article, the author has to write it. My point was that this work is time-consuming, and usually unpaid: so there's a limit to how much one writer should take on.

As for Andy and his fifteen minutes, you might like to try to be a little less obtuse.

With non-fiction it's pretty much standard now for authors to understand where their book fits into the market, and to know their potential audience.

With fiction? Not so much.

It can help, of course: but in my direct experience, many novelists are clueless about promoting their own work, and can actually hinder a publisher's efforts if they have too much of a plan.

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I fear my response to this will insult lazy amateurish writers who believe their masterpieces should be recognized without a monumental effort on everyone's behalf.

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I fear it will too.

Go and read AbsoluteWrite's "Newbie's Guide", right now. Do not post here again until you've done so. Pay particular attention to our one rule of "respect your fellow writer". If you can't do that, then you will get banned from this site.

Including taking the time to read their competition and follow their marketing/promo tactics including who is publishing their work and which agents represent them. Research is research. If you do it to write, do it to sell. The clues they need are here on this very website. I just learned about the importance of web presence on a thread here.

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This doesn't flow from your previous sentence and consequently doesn't quite make sense.

This is one reason I stated getting your name on any byline in any print with your book title next to your name is good free (or even paid) advertizing whether its a major mag and a product review or a local paper that accepts freelance columns, movie or restaurant reviews, etc. I read on this website that blogging and tweeting aren't that helpful as this proven type of self promotion. For one thing, you are at least reaching people who read print and aren't surfing the web 24/7/365. JMO - not written in stone anywhere.

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It's something, but it's not necessarily advertising, nor is it necessarily good.

For example: I've had around 35 books published now, and I spent several years writing for the UK's national press, during which time I had a good few hundred pieces published. Those articles did nothing to increase or improve the sales of my books. I can guarantee that, because they didn't mention or refer to my books in any way, and so there was no reason for the readers of those articles to connect me with any of the books I've written.

A better tactic would be to write another book, and have it published well.

Of course publishers are going to want you to do all you can to promote your own work. But you can say no if it costs you too much.

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Agreed and evident. I was merely pointing out to be careful what you wish for. Business travel sucks, sitting at bookstore table is tedious, having to do a reading or lecture or interview is nerve racking. Unexpected expenses creep up, etc. etc.

I'm just describing my experience to someone asking a question. You accuse me of snarking, but you are critiquing my spelling, arguing semantics of job descriptions although I agree they are different they are also similar and germaine to the topic at hand.

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1) I asked you if you were snarking. I didn't accuse you of it. You still haven't answered my question.

2) I didn't critique your spelling. I just didn't understand what you were talking about, because I couldn't work out what you meant by the misspelled word you included. However, I have now critiqued your spelling because when you tried to correct your earlier misspelling, you got it wrong again.

3) I'd already discussed with another member the differences between marketing and promotion before you arrived in-thread. For you to start talking without taking that into consideration implies that you're more interested in the sound of your own voice than in the subject under discussion. That is not a good thing.

4) If you agree with me about the differences between marketing and promotion, why are you arguing with me about it?

5) I'm not "arguing semantics", I'm trying to avoid confusion by using words in as precise and correct way as possible. Why do you find that so objectionable? You're a writer. Words matter. We should use them with care.

And lastly responding to my reply with repetition - i.e. below. I'm not looking for a problem, just stating opinions.

As I think I said earlier, such extended tours work best for authors with an extensive backlist. Authors who only have one book out might well find that it costs them too much in other ways to make it worthwhile.

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I was responding to your earlier comment. I suggest you re-read my comment in that context: it might help you work out why I said what I did and realise that I wasn't just repeating myself for fun.

Old Hack said:

Relayer, you need to redo your quote tags: you don't need the forward slash "/" on your opening quote tags, only on the closing ones.

I'll correct it in this quote, because at the moment it's almost impossible for people to work out what you're saying, and what you're quoting.

So, for those of you following along at home, here's Relayer's comment with the quote tags corrected (I hope--it might take me a couple of tries to get it right, so do bear with me if I have to edit this), and my reply.



You didn't answer my question.

I advise you to think very carefully before answering me.



I wasn't editing you, I just didn't understand what you meant. And just so you know, you've still not got it right.



We've discussed the distinction between marketing and promotion earlier in the thread: for example, I wrote,



If you'd read the rest of the thread you'd have noticed it, I'd have thought.



Ah--I didn't read it as that at all. Thank you for clarifying.

In future, please don't change people's quotes in any way without making clear that you've made that change. It's not appropriate.



Again you've added an emphasis to my words which wasn't there originally, but haven't pointed out that you've made this change. Please: do not do this.

Note that I was discussing work that publicists would do for a writer, not that which marketing people do: so I was not talking about ads, or ad copy: I was talking about interviews and articles. If a publicist arranges for an author to write an article, the author has to write it. My point was that this work is time-consuming, and usually unpaid: so there's a limit to how much one writer should take on.

As for Andy and his fifteen minutes, you might like to try to be a little less obtuse.



I fear it will too.

Go and read AbsoluteWrite's "Newbie's Guide", right now. Do not post here again until you've done so. Pay particular attention to our one rule of "respect your fellow writer". If you can't do that, then you will get banned from this site.



This doesn't flow from your previous sentence and consequently doesn't quite make sense.



It's something, but it's not necessarily advertising, nor is it necessarily good.

For example: I've had around 35 books published now, and I spent several years writing for the UK's national press, during which time I had a good few hundred pieces published. Those articles did nothing to increase or improve the sales of my books. I can guarantee that, because they didn't mention or refer to my books in any way, and so there was no reason for the readers of those articles to connect me with any of the books I've written.

A better tactic would be to write another book, and have it published well.



1) I asked you if you were snarking. I didn't accuse you of it. You still haven't answered my question.

2) I didn't critique your spelling. I just didn't understand what you were talking about, because I couldn't work out what you meant by the misspelled word you included. However, I have now critiqued your spelling because when you tried to correct your earlier misspelling, you got it wrong again.

3) I'd already discussed with another member the differences between marketing and promotion before you arrived in-thread. For you to start talking without taking that into consideration implies that you're more interested in the sound of your own voice than in the subject under discussion. That is not a good thing.

4) If you agree with me about the differences between marketing and promotion, why are you arguing with me about it?

5) I'm not "arguing semantics", I'm trying to avoid confusion by using words in as precise and correct way as possible. Why do you find that so objectionable? You're a writer. Words matter. We should use them with care.



I was responding to your earlier comment. I suggest you re-read my comment in that context: it might help you work out why I said what I did and realise that I wasn't just repeating myself for fun.

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I replied to OP. You replied to my reply unsolicited. I responded. Message received.

shaldna said:

With regards to social media - there are many authors out there who would do well to stay off Twitter and Facebook because they don't d themselves any favours, and indeed can do more harm than good to their careers.

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I agree, anything can turn some one off or be read the wrong way. Something can come back to haunt an author as well, look at Paula Dean for example.

Also I believe in having a bit of mystique. Plus, I am a writer, I like my solitude and my privacy. I don't want a person to know my likes and dislikes or to assume my fiction comes from my life and not my imagination even if it does.

My newest contract from a small, new, digital first publisher has only a short paragraph on author promotion. At the publisher's reasonable request and subject to my prior commitments I'm expected to personally promote my work on radio and/or Tv and/or print media interviews; if travel is required the publisher will pay travel costs and related expenses.

To date I have not had to do any such interviews. I have also felt no pressure to bust my ass in promoting my book. Everything I have done is of my own free choice: telling friends and family, Facebook and Twitter updates, contacting relevant blogs with review requests and/or guest post or interview suggestions. A few blogs have done this of their own volition.

My book is still selling well, so I assume my publisher is carrying on some kind of invisible marketing stuff.