In defense of oral tradition

kuwisdelu

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Something I've been thinking about lately is the legitimacy of oral history.

Western thought tends to give more credence to written history versus oral history. And in general, to written languages versus purely spoken languages.

But I tend to feel this is a biased view of the world. Especially as a member of a people who have tended to be disregarded by history due to our illiteracy (I am Native American), I feel I must defend oral history. Why should written history be valued over oral history?

I believe they both have their advantages and disadvantages.

I think one area where this is evident is the distinction between knowledge and wisdom.

I propose that oral history favors wisdom, while written history favors knowledge.

In a culture of oral history that is passed down by elders and experts, wisdom and knowledge tend to be conveyed at the same time. While in a culture of written history, a novice may partake of multitudes of knowledge from written works, without drinking in wisdom, which can be more difficult to convey through the written word than through personal teachings.

An interesting area that I think demonstrates this is the martial arts. In this case, although the culture possesses the capacity for written history, we have areas of expertise that are exclusively conveyed via oral history. I believe this to be a case of a society — in a particular paradigm — choosing to use the advantages of oral history (which favors wisdom) over that of written history (which favors knowledge).

What are others' thoughts regarding written language versus spoken language? And cultures which use or favor one over the other?
 
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Lillith1991

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Are we including mythology in this discussion as well? Myths seem to be overlook when it comes to history particularly in cultures that value the written word over oral history. Which in turn means myths and other things that don't make up "true" history by western standards are dying out as the elders who are the main source of this information die out.

I don't think imparting wisdom by oral tradition in for example the form of old negro spirituals that lot's of older black people were taught as kids is invalid. Likewise I feel myths,fables, and legends from other cultures have great valueand wisdom. All those things are a form of history to me.

Because someone decides to write a book on the history of such a plant by such peoples doesn't mean said history didn't exist before it was written down. It did, even if "just" in the oral sense which is why it was worth writting about in the first place.
 
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RichardGarfinkle

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I am inclined to agree with the basic premise, although the example of Martial Arts shows that calling it oral history may be a misnomer. There are many skills that are best passed on by an apprenticeship system of hands on lessons.

Nearly all arts are best taught this way.

The point about passed on wisdom is a good one, but it's also possible for an oral history to acquire systemic errors that can be passed on because of tradition.

There is also a gain and loss in oral versus written history. The wisdom in oral history will tend to adapt the teachings of the past to the needs of people as they are in the present day, which is a good thing. But written primary source history gives us insights into thought as it actually was in the past.

I think both are vital.
 

regdog

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Oral history is very legitimate. In some ancient cultures it was considered an insult for something to be written down. if it was important it was told and remembered.


If I can steal a quote from Braveheart "History is written by those who've hanged heroes."
 

ColoradoGuy

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Careful, folks.

If you are an anthropologist or ethnographer oral history is key to what you are studying.

If you are an historian trying to figure out what actually happened in the past oral history is often wrong, and wrong in pernicious and dangerous ways. We can see this happening in front of our eyes today. Look at the wrong information we see about the Civil War, its causes and aftermath. In this particular case the "wisdom" of the Civil War experience is toxic to our current society. Yet some insist we should honor the misguided notions as valid in some way because misguided people believe it to be so.
 

regdog

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The problem is incorrect history is written as well.
 

kuwisdelu

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If you are an historian trying to figure out what actually happened in the past oral history is often wrong, and wrong in pernicious and dangerous ways. We can see this happening in front of our eyes today. Look at the wrong information we see about the Civil War, its causes and aftermath. In this particular case the "wisdom" of the Civil War experience is toxic to our current society. Yet some insist we should honor the misguided notions as valid in some way because misguided people believe it to be so.

Would you really call the Anglo-American south a culture of traditional oral storytelling?

If we are talking about the slaves' oral history, then maybe. But the white south was not and is not a culture of oral history. I would differentiate between oral history that is and isn't traditional.
 
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Lillith1991

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If we are talking about the slaves' oral history, then maybe. But the white south was not and is not a culture of oral history. I would differentiate between oral history that is and isn't traditional.

Maybe I'm biased, but i'd say more than maybe for the slaves. Spirituals are a form of oral history in my book.
 

ColoradoGuy

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Would you really call the Anglo-American south a culture of traditional oral storytelling?

If we are talking about the slaves' oral history, then maybe. But the white south was not and is not a culture of oral history. I would differentiate between oral history that is and isn't traditional.

I'm talking about the neo-confederate revival that pedals nonsense about the Civil War, an alternate oral history that began in the 1870s and reached its apogee in the so-called Lost Cause movement.
 

kuwisdelu

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I'm talking about the neo-confederate revival that pedals nonsense about the Civil War, an alternate oral history that began in the 1870s and reached its apogee in the so-called Lost Cause movement.

The Wikipedia page for the Lost Cause movement cites multiple examples of books and literary defenses. I'm not sure why you're calling it an oral history?

The Confederate South still consisted mostly of Anglo-American whites that long ago abandoned oral tradition as their primary form of history and story-telling, so I find it hard to buy into a comparison of a revived oral history in the Confederate south that has any relevance to the oral traditions to which I'm referring.
 

ColoradoGuy

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The Wikipedia page for the Lost Cause movement cites multiple examples of books and literary defenses. I'm not sure why you're calling it an oral history?

The Confederate South still consisted mostly of Anglo-American whites that long ago abandoned oral tradition as their primary form of history and story-telling, so I find it hard to buy into a comparison of a revived oral history in the Confederate south that has any relevance to the oral traditions to which I'm referring.

Then we're referring to different things.
 

RichardGarfinkle

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I should have said oral tradition instead of oral history.

Changed the thread title.

Are you requiring that it be strictly oral? There are oral traditions which rely on and intersect with written works. The traditions and laws Jews live by are an amalgam of Biblical texts, written interpretations, and at least 2000 years of oral ideas and arguments.
 

kuwisdelu

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Are you requiring that it be strictly oral? There are oral traditions which rely on and intersect with written works. The traditions and laws Jews live by are an amalgam of Biblical texts, written interpretations, and at least 2000 years of oral ideas and arguments.

No, I think the Oral Torah is an example, too.

But I am thinking of traditions, rather than testimony.

So I would count Jewish tradition, Homer, etc.
 
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The Táin Bó Cúailnge or The Cattle Raid of Cooley; it's written now, but you'll notice that there are several different versions of many of the episodes and the Remscéla or pre-tales; even the mss. acknowledge this by giving a version and then noting "others say that it happened this way . . . "

Even today Ireland and the Seannachie, traditional tale-tellers, who will offer an alternate version "Some tells it like this . . . . "

The Medieval Welsh Trioedd Ynys Prydein/ Triads of the Isle of Britain; The Welsh triads; short fragments of knowledge and data grouped in threes for easy memorization:

Three Exalted Prisoners of the Island of Britain said:
Llyr Half-Speech, who was imprisoned by Euroswydd, and the second, Mabon son of Modron, and third, Gwair son of Geirioedd. And one (Prisoner), who was more exalted than the three of them. This Exalted Prisoner was Arthur. And it was the same lad who released him from each of these three prisons- Goreu, son of Custennin, his cousin.

There are Irish triads as well; they tend to emphasize genealogy, and places.

The Irish Dindsenchas; tales of high points, literally, but onomastic tales about places and their names: here's one, about Ard Macha:

Metrical Dindsencha of Ard Macha said:
There came one day in bright glory to Conchobar's appointed Assembly, from the waters eastward, a man rich in herds, Cruinn son of Agnoman, lord of hundreds.
Then they bring, pacing proudly, two horses, whose like I see not, to the warriors' horse-race—hide it not!—held at that season by the king of Ulaid.
Though their like was not found among the horses of Mag Da Gabra, Cruind, eager and shaggy, said that his wife was swifter, though heavy with child.
‘Arrest ye the chieftain!’ said Conchobar, leader in battle, ‘till the warrior's fair wife come to a noble race against my steeds.’
A messenger was sent to fetch her by the king of the stout levelled spears, to bid her come from the ocean waves to contend on behalf of idle-speaking Cruinn.
The woman came without delay to the assembly of perilous exploits: her two names, not seldom heard in the west, were bright Grian and pure Macha.
Her father, not without might in his home, was Midir of Brí Léith meic Celtchair; in her roofless dwelling in the west she was Grian, the sun of womankind.

When she arrived, fierce for glory, she prayed at once for respite to the host of undefeated clans, because her hour of travail was come.
The Ulaid made answer thereupon to the quick brisk dame, big with child, that she should find no grace before the contest from the sworded battalion of famous Line.
Then the nimble bright lady bared herself, and loosened the hair about her head: without fierce cry to urge her she came to the race, to the tourney.
The horses were brought close beside her, to drive them in this wise past the noble lady: for the Ulaid of that keep continually that array of steeds was an evil omen.
Swift though the prince's steeds were among the tribes, met in might, swifter was the woman, unsparing of effort: the king's horses were over-slow.
When she reached the end of the green—noble was her stake, great and famous—she bore twin babes, without respite, before the folk of the Red Branch fort.
A boy and a girl together—through her glorious deed sorrow was their nurse; Fir and Fial were the names of the twins that Grian bore, unsparing of effort.

She leaves a word enduringly upon the pillars of the Red Branch, that in time of war they should be in distress, in anguish and labour-pangs.
The word she uttered then brought distress to the lordly host; it clave to them—it was no occasion for valour—till the ninth of nine lives.
From the reign of Conchobar of Cerna over the strong troops of northern Emain, the ill deed by her imprecation wrought their ruin until the reign of Mal son of Rochraide.
Then the woman died of that sore sickness, 'twas certain, and was buried yonder in solitude in Ard Macha, rich in mead.

They're better in Irish; they're rife with poetic figures, formula and alliteration, all of which helps make them memorable. This is about a woman named Macha; she appeared one day at the home of Cruinn son of Agnoman. She set about making dinner, and stayed with him as his wife. She asks only one thing of him; that he not boast of her.

One day he sees the king's horses race, and says that his wife, great with child, runs faster. The king says bring her and prove this or die. She comes; she races and runs faster than the faster horses, then dies, giving birth to twins. As she dies, she curses the men of Ulster that in their time of war, they will be as weak as a woman in labor; this is the Pangs of the Ulaid.

Beowulf; the poetic meter and the use of oral formulae make it very clear that this was originally an oral epic.

The Slavic epics described by Alfred Lord in Singer of Tales; these are still transmitted orally.

There's three things I've noticed about oral tale traditions; first, a citation "I got this from X," secondly the acknowledgement of alternative versions "Some tells it like this, or [these people] tell it like this . . .," thirdly, the idea that there are proper people to tell and hear a tales "This is a tale the women . . . " and that there are proper times to tell a tale, i.e. not at night, only at night, only at a particular time of year, etc.

And these three things cross cultures and languages, though not all are true of all tale-tellers.
 
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blacbird

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I've never thought that "oral tradition" required being defended. A lot of stuff originating in oral tradition gets into written form for a number of valid reasons, not least of which is that, in today's world, it permits things to be shared much more widely.

A good example of this kind of thing is the Nigerian writer Amos Tutuola, who transformed the oral tales learned in his childhood Yoruba village into two fantastic "novels", The Palm-Wine Drinkard and My Life in the Bush of Ghosts. There are many other modern writers who draw upon such material (Sholom Aleichem, Velma Wallis, N. Scott Momaday, James Stephens all come to mind).

And I'm a huge admirer of stories that seem to demand being read aloud. The tale-teller is an immense part of the world's cultural history, of virtually every civilization, and continues to be. What glories have we lost, I wonder, because no written record exists of the tales of the Nazca people, the Olmecs, the Anasazi?

caw
 
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Wilde_at_heart

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Would you really call the Anglo-American south a culture of traditional oral storytelling?

If we are talking about the slaves' oral history, then maybe. But the white south was not and is not a culture of oral history. I would differentiate between oral history that is and isn't traditional.

Depends on what the literacy rates were, and the social class people belonged to, wouldn't it?

The main problem with oral history is what if that particular culture is wiped out or significantly altered by later rulers? All that's left gets largely told by the people who took over.
 
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Would you really call the Anglo-American south a culture of traditional oral storytelling?

If we are talking about the slaves' oral history, then maybe. But the white south was not and is not a culture of oral history. I would differentiate between oral history that is and isn't traditional.

Large percentages of White southerners even post Civil war were not literate.

And yes, even if you are literate you can still have oral traditions in various forms, most especially place-name /geographic stories and genealogical stories.

In some cases, there's language-switching, so for instance, various German-speaking religious minorities will switch to various restricted forms of German for some stories.
 

kuwisdelu

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Large percentages of White southerners even post Civil war were not literate.

And yes, even if you are literate you can still have oral traditions in various forms, most especially place-name /geographic stories and genealogical stories.

In some cases, there's language-switching, so for instance, various German-speaking religious minorities will switch to various restricted forms of German for some stories.

I'm curious. Do they also tend follow the three things you described earlier?

Where I'm having trouble is: I'm sure there are oral traditions that originate from earlier cultures of origin, but did a specific oral tradition unique to the American South (across ethnic backgrounds) arise? It seems like an awfully short time for that to be possible, to me, but maybe it was. For example, I'd think the German tradition must originate from Germanic roots, and the oral tradition of slaves must have originated from African roots, or am I wrong?

There's three things I've noticed about oral tale traditions; first, a citation "I got this from X," secondly the acknowledgement of alternative versions "Some tells it like this, or [these people] tell it like this . . .," thirdly, the idea that there are proper people to tell and hear a tales "This is a tale the women . . . " and that there are proper times to tell a tale, i.e. not at night, only at night, only at a particular time of year, etc.

And these three things cross cultures and languages, though not all are true of all tale-tellers.

I hadn't thought about it before, but when you describe it and I started looking for these things, you are right. I start seeing them everywhere, too.
 
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RichardGarfinkle

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I'm curious. Do they also tend follow the three things you described earlier?

Where I'm having trouble is: I'm sure there are oral traditions that originate from earlier cultures of origin, but did a specific oral tradition unique to the American South (across ethnic backgrounds) arise? It seems like an awfully short time for that to be possible, to me, but maybe it was. For example, I'd think the German tradition must originate from Germanic roots, and the oral tradition of slaves must have originated from African roots, or am I wrong?

This is an interesting question. It may depend on how long you think something needs to exist for it to become an oral tradition. Organizations and groups of people with common interests tend to acquire their own oral histories and their own customs, sometimes very quickly. And people can very quickly assert that those are the way things are done, and the attitudes people should have.

By way of example, I would point toward SFF fandom which is only a couple of generations old, but is old enough to have people miffed at the changes brought about by younger generations.

Human groups tend to develop private language, customs, and stories at a fairly quick pace. Those tend to be passed on orally more than anything else.

I'm torn as to whether or not there is a qualitative difference between these and the longer scale traditions you focused on when you started this thread. I would argue that they are structurally similar, but rarely as long lived.

I guess my point is that there is a great deal of oral tradition and history that people use all the time, but that they neither notice nor respect that they are doing so.