"no one owns culture"

Great minds think alike, and post simultaneously!

kuwisdelu said:

In terms of resources and experiences to draw from? Sure.

In other ways, not so much.

See aruna's examples for how writing from the insider perspective can lead to difficulty with publishing and acceptance by the majority reading audience.

And if you're not a member of the community you're writing about, you don't have to worry very much about being rejected by it if you do screw up, and that rejection by our community is a major fear for some of us.

There are many white authors who see great success and are unbothered about being rejected by the communities they've disrespectfully depicted.

(And likewise, there are some who write respectfully and are embraced for it.)



A common reaction to criticism I see — particularly when it involves historical fiction — "but that's just how people thought in the day; do you want to throw out Mark Twain too?"

What this reaction ignores is how Twain's narratives are skillfully crafted to subvert the racism in them and communicate a completely different message.

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Agreed on both points. I just finished a novel with an MC from an Arab culture, one I'm very familiar with. I sent it to one of my old college profs who's a fairly known writer, a great writer, I think, and from the same culture himself. I was nervous, not just because he's a great writer, but because he's a generation older than mine, speaks the language which i don't, knows the time that it was set in, a time before I was born, etc. The good news is he said he had never seen that particular slice of life so authentically portrayed (full disclosure, he was speaking of not just the culture, but our common subculture and even a certain city neighborhood that we both come from. The bad news is he said, as kindly as he could that beyond that culture, he didn't see a market for it. Just starting to get it out there but we'll see if he's right.

bookmaker said:

Agreed on both points. I just finished a novel with an MC from an Arab culture, one I'm very familiar with. I sent it to one of my old college profs who's a fairly known writer, a great writer, I think, and from the same culture himself. I was nervous, not just because he's a great writer, but because he's a generation older than mine, speaks the language which i don't, knows the time that it was set in, a time before I was born, etc. The good news is he said he had never seen that particular slice of life so authentically portrayed (full disclosure, he was speaking of not just the culture, but our common subculture and even a certain city neighborhood that we both come from. The bad news is he said, as kindly as he could that beyond that culture, he didn't see a market for it. Just starting to get it out there but we'll see if he's right.

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Not sure about right per se, but it will be difficult for you to attract the interest of an agent and publisher for it. For some reasons non-white cultures (I consider Arabs/people of middle eastern decent non-white) written from the perspective of/ by a non-white author is more likely to get snubbed than the same work by a white author. Which doesn't make sense but is how things are.

Lillith1991 said:

Not sure about right per se, but it will be difficult for you to attract the interest of an agent and publisher for it. For some reasons non-white cultures (I consider Arabs/people of middle eastern decent non-white) written from the perspective of/ by a non-white author is more likely to get snubbed than the same work by a white author. Which doesn't make sense but is how things are.

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I think his concern was more that a reader outside the culture wouldn't get it, rather than it/I would be snubbed by the publishing industry because I'm non-white; yes, my understanding/definition of non-white would be any culture that isn't of European origin.

Is that (bolded) really true? Not doubting you, it just would seem counter intuitive. Why would anyone prefer to read a work written from the outside in of any culture? (Edit to clarify: all else equal, of course)

Lillith1991 said:

Not sure about right per se, but it will be difficult for you to attract the interest of an agent and publisher for it. For some reasons non-white cultures (I consider Arabs/people of middle eastern decent non-white) written from the perspective of/ by a non-white author is more likely to get snubbed than the same work by a white author.

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Given the number of agents deliberately looking for such books, I doubt that the "snub" is racially motivated.

Agents don't care as much about an author as they care that the book is good. Any number of offensive, rude, socially inept authors nonetheless write good books; agents and editors know this.

Medievalist said:

Given the number of agents deliberately looking for such books, I doubt that the "snub" is racially motivated.

Agents don't care as much about an author as they care that the book is good. Any number of offensive, rude, socially inept authors nonetheless write good books; agents and editors know this.

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I don't think it's a deliberate thing, not now at least. In the past it probably was deliberate, very much so most likely. I think part of it is book quality and marketablity, but some is that people don't want to be forced to let go of misconceptions. They want the romanticized western version of the Native American, or Indians etc. So when a book that comes along challenges that, they're more likely to reject it.

If I can say something that might be picked apart:

I think that fiction does not really reflect reality. I think when people write what they see in fiction they are not thinking about real life much. They are thinking about fiction. I think this may be why in the US people who aren't white and exposed nearly exclusively to stories about white people will write about white people until they realize what they're doing. I think in the minds of readers and writers stories to a good extent exist in a sort of "fairyland" where X or Y thing is acceptable or essential in them even though X or Y is nowhere in real life.

Despite this fiction is important and what people learn in fiction can affect them in real life blah blah blah blah we all know this part.

I think a good part of it is that with a lot of groups people do not know how they want to be represented or at least have not built their own representation yet.

A group may have built their own stories and create a persona of how things "should be written" in it and if you abide by these rules and do it well people are unlikely to be offended or even notice that it was made by someone "different." However I think a significant number of groups in the US have had external tropes pushed upon them which are not acceptable to that group and do not reflect how that group wishes to be portrayed. These tropes need to be built internally, I think.

So I don't really think that white people (or face it any external person) trying to write "sensitively" is necessarily the solution. I mean it might work for now but that's not really... it's oversimplified? maybe? And not permanent.

I'm confused, I never discussed rights.

Hapax Legomenon said:

Like I mean I have been looking at a project that would be steampunk Ottoman Empire based. I've heard so many people begging for non-European steampunk and whenever they see this idea they get really excited. But I have no idea how to go about it, particularly with the "offensiveness" because while the ethnic groups still exist there is no Ottoman Empire anymore, and, being an empire, has a significant amount of nasty history.

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Do it and take the flack. The way people jump from one outrage to the next these days youll be forgotten inside of a week. Even sooner if the story doesnt contain any actual racism. The proof is always in the pudding. Its ridiculous that people back down from things just because of the possibility of being CALLED a racist. As if the mere accusation makes it so.

Have more confidence in yourself and your work. Are you a racist? Do you intend to insert racism into your story? If not, then screw em. The burden of proof is on the accusers. Defy them to find the racism. Dont wave a white flag at the very uttering of the word.

bookmaker said:

The bad news is he said, as kindly as he could that beyond that culture, he didn't see a market for it. Just starting to get it out there but we'll see if he's right.

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Hmm, as a big fan of Hosseini's books, I really hope your professor's wrong.

Medievalist said:

Given the number of agents deliberately looking for such books, I doubt that the "snub" is racially motivated.

Agents don't care as much about an author as they care that the book is good. Any number of offensive, rude, socially inept authors nonetheless write good books; agents and editors know this.

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QFT. I'm trying to think of a time when my agent or editor asked whether I was white, or how old I was, or my heritage. I didn't meet them in person until I'd worked with them for over a year, and they didn't have a photograph of me until the first book was nearing final printing. (Pre-twitter/blog/forum era). I remember the closest they got to asking my age was whether I could legally sign a contract.

The only reason I can see that an agent or editor would be concerned about a topic is whether it will sell to enough people to make the publication of it worth the money--IOW, will it resonate with enough people to get word of mouth reputation. Something I've noticed (and this is just my own personal analysis) is that some "ethnic/written from the inside of the culture" books rely on a reader's knowledge of the culture that they may not have, while some "ethnic/written from outsider looking in" books capitalize on the reader having no knowledge and therefore go into more detailed explanation of the unique cultural logic that helps the reader center themselves. One example are the Tony Hillerman mysteries featuring Navajo policeman Jim Chee. I loved those books, not just for the mystery involved, but the detailed explanation of the logic behind the characters' decisions. He commented in an interview once that it was it was the fact he grew up on a reservation as a white child that gave him the outsider's insights into the culture that he could explain to others. I have no idea how they were viewed by the actual tribal members--whether they were lauded as excellent representations, or loathed as crap. But as a reader, the mindset of the character in solving not just "who" committed the crime, but the all-important "why" was fascinating to me, because often the crime (when perpetrated by a tribal member) was for an entirely different reason than I expected. On the other hand, the Walter Moseley mysteries were written from a more insider view, but with that strong outsider feel that delved into logic from outside the window, in that Easy Rawlins' world was unique to both his race and the era, so the logic of the characters was of that time and place, but Moseley explained it in a way that acknowledged a reader's lack of knowledge of the MC's world. But what if Moseley had been white? Would that somehow make the books any less? James Patterson writes the Alex Cross thriller novels. Is he wrong to try to write an African-American MC? Patterson actually talks about writing a black male, for which he has been both lauded and loathed and why he decided to do so. I also love those books, and the race of the character has no bearing on whether I purchase it. Would it make any difference if Patterson was black, or Asian? Not to me as a reader. But do I know whether the portrayal is accurate? No. I don't. I read books for the plot first, and later come to love the character on how they handle the plot and will buy a sequel. The race doesn't matter to me.

But some character logic is just too foreign for my plot expectations. Despite the critical acclaim, I HATED The No. 1 Women's Detective Agency stories. Not because it was set in Africa, and not because the characters were of a different race, but the logic made no sense to me. It may well be that the insider perspective was too inside so that it required a knowledge I didn't have. More than once I put down the book, shaking my head, only to pick it up later and try again. I never did make it to the end. What made it different? I honestly don't know.

snafu1056 said:

Do it and take the flack. The way people jump from one outrage to the next these days youll be forgotten inside of a week. Even sooner if the story doesnt contain any actual racism. The proof is always in the pudding. Its ridiculous that people back down from things just because of the possibility of being CALLED a racist. As if the mere accusation makes it so.

Have more confidence in yourself and your work. Are you a racist? Do you intend to insert racism into your story? If not, then screw em. The burden of proof is on the accusers. Defy them to find the racism. Dont wave a white flag at the very uttering of the word.

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Oh, good lord. This post right here, so many things to dispute but they all consolidate into one thing. A peoples culture is their baby! If you write about a culture you better have a damn sight more than just "common knowledge" and a desire to write a story. You have to treat the people you're writing about with respect!

You don't have the right to write whatever you damn well please about them! You can however have the privilage as long as you approach the topic with care, and compassion. As long as you portray a story that would resonate with the people it's about, not just a white audience or one of other ethnic groups.

kuwisdelu said:

Of course not. But it's not like we aren't telling our own stories.

While these conversations are always coming back to outsiders arguing for a right to tell them.

When the conversation was never supposed to be about that in the first place.

...

And no, you do not have that right.

But you can have that privilege if you are willing to carry the responsibility that comes with it.

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I have to admit that I was long-reluctant to crack open Life of Pi because it was written by a non-Indian. I'm not interested myself in writing 'other people's stories' as such, and as a reader I'm not terribly keen on them either. Even if they are well-researched, unless that person is already familiar with the culture via other means - they grew up nearby, know a lot of people who belong to it, etc. - there's still something (like some of the tweeness in LoP) that feels a bit off.

I don't take that to mean I can't write about someone else's culture (and in that sense I don't think anyone 'owns' it) but do think that if a person who doesn't 'belong' to a particular group is trying to write a story from the perspective of someone within that culture then the standard for research, etc. needs to be very high.

Even among professional anthropologists, ethnographers consider that one cannot properly study another culture without being immersed in it for a significant length of time. And these days, unfortunately, 'research' has a very broad definition. It's a skill in and of itself.
ETA: However the larger and more diverse a 'culture' is, the more leeway a writer has. Considering Cathy's point above, 'African-American' covers a wide range of people. And an American author is still going to be closer to his subject matter than if he was from, say, Northern Italy or Saskatoon.

So then all historical fiction is out because none of us has ever been to the past. It should probably just be left to the historians. History belongs to them, and dopey fiction writers have no right to write about stuff they dont understand.

snafu1056 said:

So then all historical fiction is out because none of us has ever been to the past. It should probably just be left to the historians. History belongs to them, and dopey fiction writers have no right to write about stuff they dont understand.

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Hist fic is one of those things where if you don't do your research to where you can show you're reasonably familiar with the era, the people who read a lot of that stuff will think you're an idiot. Same with medical thrillers, police procedurals, etc.

Wilde_at_heart said:

Hist fic is one of those things where if you don't do your research to where you can show you're reasonably familiar with the era, the people who read a lot of that stuff will think you're an idiot. Same with medical thrillers, police procedurals, etc.

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And with things having to do with culture as well. You tell me something about khmer culture I know isn't right, and use just the monolith of asia slapping the name Cambodia on it. Me, yiey(my cousins grandma), and my cousins are all going wonder what idiot wrote this.

Same with things written about African Americans for me. Or Jamaican culture for my sisters best friend, Haitian culture for my nieces dad. We're all some variation of black, but the culture is different because of our histories.

I came across this blog post today on Twitter, written by YA author Malinda Lo. Seemed relevant to this thread: Should white people write about people of color?

Sunflowerrei said:

I came across this blog post today on Twitter, written by YA author Malinda Lo. Seemed relevant to this thread: Should white people write about people of color?

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hmm...

On the other hand, if you’re terrified of writing outside your culture, you don’t have to.

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Interesting.

snafu1056 said:

So then all historical fiction is out because none of us has ever been to the past. It should probably just be left to the historians. History belongs to them, and dopey fiction writers have no right to write about stuff they dont understand.

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I think there's a difference when you're trying to portray an extant culture and you mess up royally than in writing a historic novel where you get some details wrong. Consider that members of minority groups within a country like the US, or members of non-western cultures, are often stereotyped and misunderstood, when they're acknowledged to exist at all. It hurts to see something that's integral to your values or experience made light of or misrepresented, especially when said misrepresentations have been used (or are still being used) as a justification for lowering your status. I don't think historians feel the same kind of pain when someone portrays medieval European eating potatoes and smoking tobacco. Annoyance or bemusement, perhaps, but not pain.

No one in this thread has said one shouldn't write other cultures, simply that they should do the appropriate research and run it by readers who personally understand that culture. And of course to learn from any negative feedback they receive. I find the specter of getting things wrong frightening too. I write secondary world fantasy, so I make up my cultures. I'd like to say it's from scratch, but that would be a lie, as my perceptions of real-world cultures drive my choices consciously and subconsciously.