Phoenix VA hospital accused of assembling a "secret waiting list" of vets who needed a doctor

Plot Device · Apr 24, 2014

Phoenix VA hospital accused of assembling a "secret waiting list" of vets who needed a doctor

This is from CNN, specifically Anderson Cooper. The language Cooper uses is very inflammatory and histrionic. The accusations are severe.

He said that at the Phoenix, Arizona Veterans Affairs Hospital, there is a "secret waiting list" (his words, not mine) of approximately 1,600 US veterans who ~~are in~~ went to that hospital and were sent home with nothing. They then spent ~~waiting~~ many months waiting to be allowed to see a doctor. And of those 1,600 vets, 40 of them died waiting for care.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/04/23/health/veterans-dying-health-care-delays/

A fatal wait: Veterans languish and die on a VA hospital's secret list

by Scott Bronstein and Drew Griffin -- CNN Investigations -- Wed April 23, 2014

(CNN) -- At least 40 U.S. veterans died waiting for appointments at the Phoenix Veterans Affairs Health Care system, many of whom were placed on a secret waiting list.

The secret list was part of an elaborate scheme designed by Veterans Affairs managers in Phoenix who were trying to hide that 1,400 to 1,600 sick veterans were forced to wait months to see a doctor, according to a recently retired top VA doctor and several high-level sources.

For six months, CNN has been reporting on extended delays in health care appointments suffered by veterans across the country and who died while waiting for appointments and care. But the new revelations about the Phoenix VA are perhaps the most disturbing and striking to come to light thus far.

Internal e-mails obtained by CNN show that top management at the VA hospital in Arizona knew about the practice and even defended it....

I recall that there was an AW forum member here about 4 years ago --I can't recall her name-- who was herself a US veteran and said she was having a difficult time getting her medical care. She said that the rumor among almost all US vets was that the policy by the paper shufflers who worked for the benefits offices at the VA was "Delay, deny, and hope that they die."

robjvargas · Apr 24, 2014

This touches VERY close to home. I only served for 7 years, so I don't qualify. But my dad is a 25-year veteran.

Veterans made an agreement with the US government, and served out their side of it.

If this accusation is true, every single person responsible for this, INCLUDING the doctors that didn't fight it, deserves to have the book thrown at them. And more, IMO.

regdog · Apr 24, 2014

That is just so wrong. Our Vets have done so much for us and that is how they are treated. Disgusting.

raburrell · Apr 24, 2014

I'd comment, but it'd be mostly incoherent sputtering. So I'll just say this had better get investigated and FIXED fast.

Plot Device · Apr 24, 2014

Here's a very telling quote. This is from Dr. Sam Foote, a staff physician who recently retired from that exact VA hospital in Phoenix. He went on the record with his full name and his face on camera.

"I feel very sorry for the people who work at the Phoenix VA," said Foote. "They're all frustrated. They're all upset. They all wish they could leave 'cause they know what they're doing is wrong.

"But they have families, they have mortgages and if they speak out or say anything to anybody about it, they will be fired and they know that."

Several other high-level VA staff confirmed Foote's description to CNN and confirmed this is exactly how the secret list works in Phoenix.

Foote is a whistle-blower, IMO. And any asshole who tries to deny him the honor of that title and prefers to call him a "leaker" is just ... I can't even describe my contempt for such obfuscation.

benluby · Apr 24, 2014

This is what happens when you put the bean counters in charge of medical care and tell them they have X amount of dollars to spend on it. This is also absolutely disgusting that our vets get treated in such a fashion. There should be no cap on their financial ceiling.

Plot Device · Apr 24, 2014

benluby said:
This is what happens when you put the bean counters in charge of medical care and tell them they have X amount of dollars to spend on it. This is also absolutely disgusting that our vets get treated in such a fashion. There should be no cap on their financial ceiling.

THIS! ^^ A thousand times THIS!! (And he said it in 3 sentences no less!)

robjvargas · Apr 24, 2014

It's the "just following orders" defense.

And I don't buy it. Thank you to Dr Foote for bringing this to light. But I'm very concerned by the extensive participation in this. Including by him. You call this unethical, then take part in it?

I strongly suspect that there will be no clean hands here.

Plot Device · Apr 24, 2014

robjvargas said:
It's the "just following orders" defense.

And I don't buy it. Thank you to Dr Foote for bringing this to light. But I'm very concerned by the extensive participation in this. Including by him. You call this unethical, then take part in it?

I strongly suspect that there will be no clean hands here.

Perhaps even Dr. Foote himself can/will be held liable because he waited until AFTER he retired (and maybe even also after he got his benefits package squared away?) to say anything.

benluby · Apr 24, 2014

Plot Device said:
Perhaps even Dr. Foote himself can/will be held liable because he waited until AFTER he retired (and maybe even also after he got his benefits package squared away?) to say anything.

The powers that be make it quite apparent to those that cross them that they will smash them like a bug. Or cover their transgressions up.
And it usually takes getting the media to piss off the citizenry to get anything done...as long as some new 'crisis' isn't fabricated to distract.
Our vets should come home to a house, free medical at ANY hospital, rather than being pigeonholed.
We have four million (approximate) vacant, foreclosed properties that the feds own. Why do we have homeless vets?

Ambrosia · Apr 24, 2014

This is from the Phoenix VA Health Care System website:

If you are intersted in reading the full statement PVAHCS submitted to CNN regarding tonights story I've copied it below...

The Phoenix VA Health Care System is committed to delivering the highest quality care to Veterans. We have conducted robust internal reviews since these allegations surfaced and welcome the results from the Office of Inspector General’s review. We take these allegations seriously.

We acknowledge Phoenix VA Health Care System has had longstanding issues with Veterans accessing care and have taken numerous actions to meet demand, while we continue to serve more Veterans and enhance our services. To ensure new Veterans waiting for appointments are managed appropriately, we maintain an Electronic Wait List (EWL) in accordance with the national VHA Scheduling Directive. The ability of new and established patients to get more timely care has showed significant improvement in the last two years which is attributable to increased budget, staffing, efficiency and infrastructure. We continue to make improvements to further reduce wait times for Veterans. Veterans who have concerns about their care, should call the Patient Advocate at 602-277-5551, ext. 6171 or 6172

Phoenix VA Health Care System cares deeply for every Veteran we are privileged to serve. As we continue to improve, we focus our work on Veterans to keep true to VA’s mission.

Click to expand...

I don't know what is happening out in Phoenix. But the VA care I have received here in NY has been very good. I think it is important to keep in mind that a failing at one point in a system does not mean the whole is bad.

benluby · Apr 24, 2014

Ambrosia said:
This is from the Phoenix VA Health Care System website:

I don't know what is happening out in Phoenix. But the VA care I have received here in NY has been very good. I think it is important to keep in mind that a failing at one point in a system does not mean the whole is bad.

Forty people dying while waiting for care I would consider not just a failure, but a major catastrophe of the VA health care system in Phoenix.

robjvargas · Apr 24, 2014

benluby said:
Forty people dying while waiting for care I would consider not just a failure, but a major catastrophe of the VA health care system in Phoenix.

Completely aside to this: Is anyone aware of the time period over which these deaths occurred? Weeks? Highly unlikely. Months? Years?

I don't think this is relevant here. I'm just curious about it, and unclear from what I've read.

Fingers · Apr 24, 2014

I quit going to the VA even though I have a service connected disability. I am a Viet Nam era vet with no combat service. I have been to the Portland VA hospital a handful of times, the last time I was there was in the mid 80's. I hurt my back at work and went to the VA for care. I was in the admitting area and was given a wheelchair to sit in and there I sat from 8am til 430pm when someone asked me what I was doing. They hurried me into a room where a doctor saw me and told me to go home and put a heating pad on my back. Nothing for the pain, no apology for making me wait. When I woke up the next morning, the heating pad had caused massive swelling in my back and I couldn't stand or walk for hours til the swelling went down. Never went back.

Filigree · Apr 24, 2014

I know of three 'Nam-era vets in the Phoenix area who died while on waiting lists, and were on substandard palliative care for major issues. 'Delay and Deny' seemed to be the way the main Phoenix VA handled things, certainly for cases that would require expensive long-time care.

I know another Gulf War-era vet who went in for something as simple as allergies, was treated for anxiety and PTSD as well, and ended up with over-medication that cost him a month of short term memory loss, the temporary inability to recognize new faces, and major motor control issues that are just now fading after two months. He's seeing a civilian doctor now, and has numerous reports from other vets of similar treatment.

The staff at the hospital is not completely to blame. They're often underfunded and at the mercy of bad administrators. They over-medicate with blanket drug cocktails because a lot of their patients are walk-in veterans who can snap and break someone's arm or neck when startled.

But I'm not surprised to see this report.

robjvargas · May 1, 2014

A little glimmer of hope on this story:

The director of the Phoenix VA and two others have been "placed on administrative leave until further notice" amid allegations that delays in care caused the deaths of U.S. veterans at the facility, the federal agency's top official announced Thursday evening.

U.S. Secretary of Veterans Affairs Eric Shinseki explained in a statement that he moved against Sharon Helman, the Phoenix VA's director, and two others "in view of the gravity of the allegations and in the interest of the Inspector General's ability to conduct a thorough and timely review."

I still have a bad taste in my mouth about the whistle-blower here, who waited until he retired before stepping up.

But I'm also glad he blew that whistle.

cathyfreeze · May 1, 2014

I can only speak from personal experience, but it's, imho, not just in AZ.

My dad, a Korean vet, got care just like this. He want to the hospital 3 times over the course of more than 2 yrs, if i recall--certainly more than a year. Each time, he was told it was all in his head or it was just normal aches of age (they knew he was a smoker.) No tests were ever run. Until Mom finally couldn't get him out of bed without assistance--then she (and a friend) hauled him to the VA hospital and wouldn't leave with him (they tried to get her to leave, again, without testing or treating him.)

He was finally diagnosed with stage 4 lung cancer. At that point, they admitted him, but refused him treatment other than minimal pain meds because, and i quote* my mom, "they said that standard treatments would only prolong his life, at most, a couple of months and the expense didn't justify the amount of time he'd be given." He lived 16 more days.

This was back in the 80s.

EDIT: *ok, i paraphrase. It's been a lot of years, but you generally don't forget hearing something like that.

cat

Witch_turtle · May 1, 2014

Wait, can someone explain this a little bit to me? I'm Canadian so I don't quite understand how the service is supposed to work, versus how it's (not) working. So are veterans supposed to get free healthcare? And hospitals and doctors are turning them away because they don't want to provide those free services?

This is honestly horrible, whatever the explanation. I don't think it's right for anyone to be denied healthcare.

Plot Device · May 1, 2014

Witch_turtle said:
Wait, can someone explain this a little bit to me? I'm Canadian so I don't quite understand how the service is supposed to work, versus how it's (not) working. So are veterans supposed to get free healthcare? And hospitals and doctors are turning them away because they don't want to provide those free services?

This is honestly horrible, whatever the explanation. I don't think it's right for anyone to be denied healthcare.

The USA has dozens if not hundreds of separate hospitals which are specifically called "veterans hospitals" where any US military veteran can go and get care. And it is all supposed to be paid for by the Department of Defense. This is deemed to be part of the fair exchange of military service. These guys (and women) surrendered their very lives and bodies over to Uncle Sam for a number of years, and after getting discharged from the military, part of the bargain is healthcare for the rest of their lives.

That's the deal these men and women signed up for. And you would be hard pressed to find any American citizen who would balk at that deal and say it's a waste of taxpayer money.

::ETA::

Part of being a member of the US armed forces includes the provision that the government literally "owns" your body during service. And this is taken so literally that if a military service person allows him or herself to get sunburned --even if he's off duty and having a day at the beach-- that crime is grounds for a court martial.

So ... after discharge, you get your body back again, but the government is obligated to help you take care of your body from then on. Medical, dental, vision -- the works.

benbradley · May 1, 2014

This is shocking but regrettably not very surprising. Veterans have been disrespected in every way that I've seen for most of my life, starting with coming back from Viet Nam and being called baby killers.

I recall the candidate who ran on reducing government spending on everything EXCEPT he would increase spending on veterans.

Ambrosia · May 2, 2014

Plot Device said:
So ... after discharge, you get your body back again, but the government is obligated to help you take care of your body from then on. Medical, dental, vision -- the works.

Not necessarily true. It depends. For instance, I am service connected disabled, but I do not get dental because I am not rated high enough in my percentage of disability to get dental. Depending on a person's priority group, they may or may not receive health benefits. Or they may not receive all health benefits. Or they may have to pay co-pays for medication and for hospital stays, etc. It really depends. Just because it is true that the government owns a soldier during their time in the service, and that person's time 24/7, right down to being able to court martial the person for harming government property, i.e. the soldier's body, it does not mean they get free medical for life.

Phoenix VA hospital accused of assembling a "secret waiting list" of vets who needed a doctor

Plot Device

A woman said to write like a man.

robjvargas

regdog

The Scavengers

raburrell

Treguna Makoidees Trecorum SadisDee

Plot Device

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benluby

practical experience, FTW

Plot Device

A woman said to write like a man.

robjvargas

Plot Device

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benluby

practical experience, FTW

Ambrosia

Grand Duchess

benluby

practical experience, FTW

robjvargas

Fingers

My cat Toby

Filigree

Mildly Disturbing

robjvargas

cathyfreeze

I lost my fever! I need it back!

Witch_turtle

hanging around for a spell

Plot Device

A woman said to write like a man.

benbradley

It's a doggy dog world

Ambrosia

Grand Duchess