The New Never-Ending PublishAmerica Thread (NEPAT)

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xanadian9

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Found this site via Google, as I was reading up on options available to those of us (such as myself) who have bit on PA's bait and 'published' with them.

I've looked through some of this thread, but seeing that it's so long, I doubt I'm going to find my answer right away. With that having been said (and while stating that I *will* read this thread to see what I can find), what options do I have now that I took the bait--hook, line and sinker? I signed with PA back in October of 2004. If I have to, I will wait out the remaining 3 years. But, I'm hoping there is a way out.

What are other people's experiences with this?

OK, off to read the thread to see what I find. Thanks in advance!
 

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Found this site via Google, as I was reading up on options available to those of us (such as myself) who have bit on PA's bait and 'published' with them.

I've looked through some of this thread, but seeing that it's so long, I doubt I'm going to find my answer right away. With that having been said (and while stating that I *will* read this thread to see what I can find), what options do I have now that I took the bait--hook, line and sinker? I signed with PA back in October of 2004. If I have to, I will wait out the remaining 3 years. But, I'm hoping there is a way out.

What are other people's experiences with this?

OK, off to read the thread to see what I find. Thanks in advance!


Wow, IDK?
They have let people out, rarely. I ask you this: To what lengths are you will to go, and what are the limits of your endurence?
 

roncouch

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Found this site via Google, as I was reading up on options available to those of us (such as myself) who have bit on PA's bait and 'published' with them.

I've looked through some of this thread, but seeing that it's so long, I doubt I'm going to find my answer right away. With that having been said (and while stating that I *will* read this thread to see what I can find), what options do I have now that I took the bait--hook, line and sinker? I signed with PA back in October of 2004. If I have to, I will wait out the remaining 3 years. But, I'm hoping there is a way out.

What are other people's experiences with this?

OK, off to read the thread to see what I find. Thanks in advance!

When you find out, please let me know. I haven't tried to get out of my contract. Not sure I will try - I did learn to forward my new manuscript(s) to a real publishing house. Good Luck!
Ron
 

Don Davidson

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Welcome, Xanadian9!

Well, PA did offer to let me out of my contract for $300.00, but I turned them down. You can read their email on the PA page of my web site, christianityforthinkers.com. It has links to most of the relevant documents, including the contract, emails from PA, and my emails to them. Here's the link to the web site: http://p7.hostingprod.com/@christianityforthinkers.com/publishamerica.htm
 

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Maybe you guys should contact the Attorney General of Maryland and the BBB. Perhaps get a lawyer yourselves. If you make enough noise, they might cut you lose. Also, if the books aren't selling due to lack of PA support, you may have a case. Again, IDK. Just trying to be supportive.
 

Marian Perera

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The BBB considers PA-to-author transactions to be a business-to-business issue, not a business-to-customer issue, so there isn't much point in contacting them. I believe people have tried that before.

PA's contract is also very cleverly worded. According to the contract, the "publisher" is not obligated to do much to promote the books, so even if they aren't selling due to lack of support, the contract protects PA.
 

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Found this site via Google, as I was reading up on options available to those of us (such as myself) who have bit on PA's bait and 'published' with them.

I've looked through some of this thread, but seeing that it's so long, I doubt I'm going to find my answer right away. With that having been said (and while stating that I *will* read this thread to see what I can find), what options do I have now that I took the bait--hook, line and sinker? I signed with PA back in October of 2004. If I have to, I will wait out the remaining 3 years. But, I'm hoping there is a way out.

What are other people's experiences with this?

OK, off to read the thread to see what I find. Thanks in advance!

When you find out, please let me know. I haven't tried to get out of my contract. Not sure I will try - I did learn to forward my new manuscript(s) to a real publishing house. Good Luck!
Ron

Well, PA did offer to let me out of my contract for $300.00, but I turned them down. You can read their email on the PA page of my web site, christianityforthinkers.com. It has links to most of the relevant documents, including the contract, emails from PA, and my emails to them. Here's the link to the web site: http://p7.hostingprod.com/@christianityforthinkers.com/publishamerica.htm

The BBB considers PA-to-author transactions to be a business-to-business issue, not a business-to-customer issue, so there isn't much point in contacting them. I believe people have tried that before.

PA's contract is also very cleverly worded. According to the contract, the "publisher" is not obligated to do much to promote the books, so even if they aren't selling due to lack of support, the contract protects PA.


Excellent points.

Here's an excerpt from one of my communications with PA. There statement is in blue, my added comment is in red:

We have very good news from the Better Business Bureau. According to BBB statistics, filings from contracted authors and customers amount to a very tiny fraction: less than half of one hundredth of one percent. All Of these complaints have been closed, of course, and this is an excellent record, especially considering our 30,000 authors, eight years in business, and almost three million (3,000,000) happy customers. Maryland BBB info as of 08.16.08: 62 complaints in the last 1.5 years, 30+ settled, membership expired 07.17.08.

In addition, with awareness of 'preditory businesses' on the rise, pursuing this may have some merit. I for one would be interested to see PA, in a legal proceeding, justify why they won't release Authors when their books aren't selling. Especially when the publishing community as a whole has a 'standard' for when books go 'out of print'. The standard is simply: 'Rights revert back to the author'. True, there are electronic rights, but the books aren't selling. So how would they rationalize this? Unless........PA is only telling the Author that the books aren't selling. There is evidence of this being a practice among these preditory publishers.

I would be willing to bet that the Authors who did get released, were also the ones who made the most noise.

:Soapbox:
 

brianm

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The BBB is only concerned with consumers. PA authors are not consumers. I've lost count of how many times someone new posts a recommendation to contact the BBB in these threads and it is and always will be futile.

Many have contacted Maryland's AG. Until there is sufficient proof that many writers have been greatly harmed (as in a large amount of money) by this business, the AG isn't interested. IMO, they feel the authors should have known better than to go with a vanity press that had/has posted warnings about them all over the Internet.

It’s like smoking cigarettes. They are really bad for you, but millions of people ignore the warnings printed on the packets. They have only themselves to blame when they get sick.

More importantly, PA is not doing anything illegal. Perhaps they are not paying all royalties due. Perhaps they have two sets of books and the IRS would like to have a looksee. However, unless you can prove these things and you have enough money and time to pursue them, you are well advised to move on and forget about PA. My opinion, of course.

A lousy contract, poor to no editing, poor quality printing and no marketing on their part is not illegal. Lying about their not being a vanity press, placing misinformation and false information on their website falls under false advertising. Sue them for that and they'll get a letter advising them to remove and correct the information within a certain prescribed time period.

Basically, it all comes down to writers not learning the business they wish to enter before entering it. If you want to be a professional writer, you need to learn the business of writing. Period.

If you didn't research the business of writing, if you didn't research PA or chose to ignore the warnings about PA you have only yourself to blame. Send PA a request to cancel your contract, advise them you will not be buying or promoting your book, write another better book, and move on with your writing career.

The next time you decide you have a manuscript ready for submission, do your homework.
 

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. . .
More importantly, PA is not doing anything illegal. . . .
And maybe more vexing, PA does apparently have many in its fold who are satisfied (maybe very much so) with the experience. Maybe they have low expectations or standards or are deluding themselves, but they will still stand up and support PA.

I was surprised this week to see a notice in the local paper of a signing of a PA book at a notoriously persnickety independent bookstore -- and the notice, for that matter, in the column of a notoriously persnickety book reviewer. Somehow, some PA authors do seem to get opportunities, however hateful that concept is to many here. That is not an endorsement, of course -- merely an observation of something that complicates the blanket condemnation of the vanity press PublishAmerica.

(And indeed there are apparently a lot of happy smokers. Go figure. I knew one who was an enthusiastic smoker right up until the cancer surgery.)

--Ken
 

brianm

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And maybe more vexing, PA does apparently have many in its fold who are satisfied (maybe very much so) with the experience.

I don't find this surprising at all.

Amateur actors and singers are thrilled to perform with their local thespian/opera societies. They haven't the talent or perhaps it's a lack of ambition and commitment to their art that stops them from furthering their careers and raising their goals. Whatever the reason, their local performances allow them to express their artistic side, which can be very rewarding.

But they don't run amuck proclaiming they are professionals. These actors and singers recognise they are performing as amateurs with an amateur company.

PA is a vanity press and being vanity published is not a professional credit, but PA authors do not or will not recognise this fact. So long as they remain with PA, they will remain amateurs regardless of their writing skills.

And that, IMO, is why these threads exist in AW. To warn those writers who want a professional career in writing that PA is a vanity press and that PA will not help them attain their goals.

As for the PA amateurs? For the most part, I don't care. I'm happy they have an outlet, I'm happy they can hold their books in their hands, and I'm happy they have a place to chat up writing.

I only care when they incorrectly advise other writers that PA is a traditional (meaning commercial or trade) publisher. PA is not and never will be anything other than a vanity press.
 

Marian Perera

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As for the PA amateurs? For the most part, I don't care.

Same here. If they get opportunities to sell or promote their books, that’s admirable – since those opportunities will usually be due to their own ingenuity and hard work, rather than to any efforts on the part of a publisher or agent or publicist. I don’t think anyone here grudges them what they do achieve, or hates it when they manage to sell books or get reviews.
 

roncouch

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As a recovering PA author, I ask myself If I would have paid any attention to the warnings posted here and other sites had I bothered to look. Frankly, I don't know. I do know I did not write a book for money, and that's a good thing seeing as my recent PA royalty check was a staggering $34.00. People make mistakes. Some have difficulty admitting errors in decision making. I don't. I screwed up! It won't be the last time. Good luck to all in your writings endeavors.
 

DaveKuzminski

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Roncouch, that check probably puts you in the top one persent of sales for PA authors who left the selling to their publisher instead of self-purchasing.
 

roncouch

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Roncouch, that check probably puts you in the top one persent of sales for PA authors who left the selling to their publisher instead of self-purchasing.

I heard some PA authors get royalties of a couple of bucks to nothing. A few claim they actually make a living from PA royalties. Perhaps I'm odd, but I never experienced the thrill of having my works published by PA. I've been around the block enough times to know that if it sounds too good to be true, it is.

I'll be thrilled if my second manuscript is picked up by a commercial publisher. Trust me, I'll toot my horn!

Ron Couch
 

brianm

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malberque,

When a writer signs a contract with PA, are they selling the right to PA to publish their manuscript for $1.00 and possible future royalties or are they buying printing services?

Answer: They are selling the right to publish and they are transacting business with another business.

What you have posted above means absolutely nothing, as PA authors can file anything they wish with the BBB but it doesn't change the fact they are not consumers. Additionally, some of those complaints may be from actual consumers. Individuals who bought books from PA’s bookstore and were not satisfied either with the product they bought or the service they received.


To simplify this for you, a consumer is a buyer. Consumers go to businesses and buy things. If the business screws up, those consumers/ buyers contact the BBB.

PA authors are sellers. They have sold the right to publish their products to PA for $1.00 and possible future royalties. They are not buying anything. Therefore, they cannot be consumers. They are a business conducting business with another business.

The BBB only handles complaints from consumers.

Even when a PA author purchases copies of their book, they are exercising their right to do so per the provision in their business to business contract they executed with PA. Now, if that same author went to PA’s bookstore, bought a book, and was not satisfied, they would be a consumer and they could file a complaint with the BBB.

One of the most important things new writers can do for themselves is to study the business of writing. Especially, publishing contracts. Know what you’re signing before you sign it or have a qualified attorney who specializes in intellectual property law go over your contract and explain it to you in detail.
 

brianm

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The end? Nice.

It’s the end because you read on the BBB something vague about a contract dispute that was resolved? Something that could be as simple as PA explained to the BBB and the author that the dispute was over a publishing contract and therefore not a consumer related complaint, and that was why the matter was resolved.

Contact the BBB yourself. Ask them if they handle complaints in regards to a contract wherein an author sells their publishing rights to a publisher. I know what the answer is, but perhaps you need to hear it from the horse’s mouth.

Good luck to you and next time I recommend you leave the bit of snarkiness off the end of your post.
 

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I don't think Brian was trying to be snarky to you. It's just that there have been loads of times when people have shown up here and advised contacting the BBB as if they expect it to spring into action and "do something" about PA. And it won't.

Just because they have a record of a complaint doesn't mean anything productive came out of them receiving it. After all, the BBB counts a complaint as resolved if the company says that they responded to the issue. It doesn't mean that the person complaining came away happy.

And when you get right down to it, if people are going to ignore huge red flags all over the internet, are they going to pay any attention to the BBB rating? We've already seen PA authors say that they read the warnings but ignored them because the complainers were 'just lazy people who didn't want to get out and market their book'. They're going to say the same thing about anyone who complains to the BBB - that they're blaming their bad experience on PA instead of themselves.
 
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roncouch

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Malburque,

It appears there are some who feel it is their duty to take visceral exception to various posts. In a forum such as this, it's common to disagree with others, but I feel responses should be courteous and thoughtful, without resorting to unnecessary mean-spirited, self-serving attacks.

Ron
 

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BBB Definition:

Contract Issues - Claim of alleged failure to honor contract or agreement,
Business-to-consumer contract. Not business-to-business.

Ask them. Really. Lots of folks here have done that and the answer is always the same (just as it is from government consumer-protection agencies).

You can argue until you are blue in the face that PA authors are de facto consumers in the relationship (not an irrational argument, I would agree), but the response from BBB, attorneys general, and so on is always the same: no dice.

--Ken
 

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I don't think Brian was trying to be snarky to you. It's just that there have been loads of times when people have shown up here and advised contacting the BBB as if they expect it to spring into action and "do something" about PA. And it won't.

Just because they have a record of a complaint doesn't mean anything productive came out of them receiving it. After all, the BBB counts a complaint as resolved if the company says that they responded to the issue. It doesn't mean that the person complaining came away happy.

And when you get right down to it, if people are going to ignore huge red flags all over the internet, are they going to pay any attention to the BBB rating? We've already seen PA authors say that they read the warnings but ignored them because the complainers were 'just lazy people who didn't want to get out and market their book'. They're going to say the same thing about anyone who complains to the BBB - that they're blaming their bad experience on PA instead of themselves.

Thank you speaking to me, and not at me.

My point was this: I own a business. I have been asked by many customers over the years if I was a member of the BBB. Never was I asked if I knew of Web threads about me. True, it's apples and oranges. Perhaps we should appreciate the fact that more mature people are likely to call the BBB for info than they are to type PA into a search engine. A fair number of those who have been duped by PA are seniors. To them, calling the BBB is a no-brainer. They were doing so long before the internet was even a thought. If one person, just one, is spared from the misery that PA deals out, than I believe the effort is not futile. Plus, it may help the 'author' feel less crappy about their choice. Maybe if we concentrated our frustration toward PA, and not each other, things would be a bit less tense in here.

Thanks again, Leslie.
 

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Malburque,

It appears there are some who feel it is their duty to take visceral exception to various posts. In a forum such as this, it's common to disagree with others, but I feel responses should be courteous and thoughtful, without resorting to unnecessary mean-spirited, self-serving attacks.

Ron

Thanks for pointing this out, and grounding me. I should know better than to engage. I will do it differently from this point forward.

What you have been doing for over two decades is more worthy of respect than having words bound and sold. You have my gratitude.
 
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