Low Residency MFA

Status
Not open for further replies.

Bryan Reardon

Registered
Joined
Jul 7, 2006
Messages
21
Reaction score
2
Location
PA
I was wondering what some of your opinions were on low-residency MFA programs. Are there good ones? Do you such a degree could land you a prof job? Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.
 

PerditaDrury

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 12, 2005
Messages
132
Reaction score
12
Location
L.A.
One of our interns went to Spalding in Louisville, Kentucky. It was something like 10 days, twice a year. She said she loved it and made great friends but when I asked her what benefit this program was -- she's a film editor and an aspiring novelist -- she said that she planned to use the degree to be able to teach. That's the sum of my knowledge of any of these low-residency programs but based on her enthusiasm for the whole thing I might just recommend it.
 

Deleted member 42

The MFA is not what I'd call a shoe-in for a job. You won't get tenure track with an MFA, unless you're exceedingly well known.
 

mjlpsu

unidentifiable food tester
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 3, 2006
Messages
263
Reaction score
8
Location
New Jersey
Website
www.boozefoodtravel.com
My grad school has a pretty good low res MFA. I had two of the instructors who do some of the online classes. And the summer program is great with all the visiting writers. All the low res students seemed pretty happy with how things went. I was happier with the full time MFA. Plus I really liked the town.
 

badducky

No Time For Chitchat, Kemosabe.
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 20, 2005
Messages
3,951
Reaction score
849
Location
San Antonio, TX
Website
jmmcdermott.blogspot.com
Do you think Hemingway or Fitzgerald or Bob Dylan would happily go off and teach writing somewhere?

Woof. If the MFA helps your writing, then go for it with all yoru heart. If it gets you a job, go be an accountant or something. Go be a web-designer with a 2-year CC degree.
 

Jamesaritchie

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 13, 2005
Messages
27,863
Reaction score
2,311
job

badducky said:
Do you think Hemingway or Fitzgerald or Bob Dylan would happily go off and teach writing somewhere?

Woof. If the MFA helps your writing, then go for it with all yoru heart. If it gets you a job, go be an accountant or something. Go be a web-designer with a 2-year CC degree.

Why wouldn't they? Most writers love teaching. Don't think I've ver known one who hated it.
 

Josie

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 16, 2006
Messages
605
Reaction score
39
I'd love to get one of those low residency MFA's.

But it would be a waste of my time because I don't want to teach writing. I want to write.

Just another way for me to procrastinate.

I had an editor once who recommended low residency MFA's.

:)
 

PerditaDrury

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 12, 2005
Messages
132
Reaction score
12
Location
L.A.
The low residency MFAs, if I understood correctly, don't teach you to teach writing but allow you the opportunity to write and get a degree for it. Students have a mentor and they pursue their own individual goals and are encouraged by their fellows and their mentor. It seems like a great program for someone who needs guidance and/or encouragement. It's an opportunity for a group of writers to get together, something that's not all that easy considering the solitary nature of a writer's world.

I would love to hear about any of the other programs out there... I think there's one that ONLY teaches creative nonfiction, another is solely for poetry, others are mixed with most having fiction programs.
 

mjlpsu

unidentifiable food tester
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 3, 2006
Messages
263
Reaction score
8
Location
New Jersey
Website
www.boozefoodtravel.com
The way I see the MFA (low residency or otherwise) is motivation and improvement. At least that's why I did it. I wasn't writing enough while working, so I applied to grad school. And it worked.
The only significant difference I see between low residency and full time students is the community. Full time writing students tend to build a community to help each other (or maybe that was just my hippie school).
Anyway, my program offered a focus in either prose, poetry, or translation. They also offered classes in teaching and book arts.
 

Bryan Reardon

Registered
Joined
Jul 7, 2006
Messages
21
Reaction score
2
Location
PA
Jamesaritchie said:
Why wouldn't they? Most writers love teaching. Don't think I've ver known one who hated it.

As you said, I can't imagine why these two would be exclussive. Right now I tech write and write fiction. I know that during a large tech project I find it much more difficult to write creatively. Although it may be an ultimate goal to make a full-time living on creative writing, I have to be realistic. The odds are not there, so I will always have a backup plan. And I do believe teaching is the perfect one. I know my tech clients would not be all that happy with me publishing novels. While I would think the college would.

I would just love to do the full blown MFA, just for my own enjoyment, but life is not as simple as my own enjoyment. The low-res one might be possible so I wondered if it would be enough, assuming at least one published novel as well, to land a teaching gig. And if so, I wondered where the "best" program was.

Thanks for your thoughts, everyone.

Bryan
 

Deleted member 42

I doubt you'd get a reliable teaching gig, and what you would be teaching would almost certainly be composition classes, as a lecturer.

You'd have better hours and make more as a tech writer.
 

Old Hack

Such a nasty woman
Super Moderator
Absolute Sage
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jun 12, 2005
Messages
22,454
Reaction score
4,956
Location
In chaos
I took a part-time MA in writing in the UK and loved it. I was offered a part-time teaching job at the University (teaching creative writing to undergraduates) as a result but I turned it down as I'd rather write than teach.

Seems to me that the MA programs here accellerate people along their learning curve, rather than teach them a lot they wouldn't have otherwise picked up. It's all that criticism and workshopping--drags all that angst right out of you and makes you really look at your work.
 

JanDarby

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Apr 26, 2006
Messages
3,553
Reaction score
1,121
Another consideration: What type of writing do you plan to do, during and after the MFA?

Most (not all; I'm sure there are exceptions) MFA programs focus on literary fiction, and many (again, not all; I've heard of exceptions f rom people in MFA programs, and when Jack Bickham was alive, he taught popular fiction writing at Iowa) of the instructors are neither inclined nor qualified to give feedback on popular fiction manuscripts.

So, if you're aiming for lit-fic, then an MFA can be useful. (Although, I recall something in grumpyoldbookman.blogspot.com about following the writing careers -- or lack thereof -- of MFA graduates that was less than encouraging.) Or, as noted above, it can be a credential for a teaching job. Or it can work to motivate you (unless, of course, you're surrounded by instructors and fellow writers who look down their noses at your genre, in which case, I would think it would be de-motivating). Or if you're doing it for fun, that's great too.

But if you're writing pop-fic, I'm not at all convinced the program would teach you more than you could learn for a LOT less by attending well-respected, genre-specific conferences. WorldCon offers a lot of writing workshops in the SF/F genre and I'm sure they do the same thing at more local conferences; and RWA (and its local chapters) offer countless workshops on both the romance genre and writing generally, and through the chapters, there is a huge amount of networking and critiquing (what would be workshopping in an MFA) and informal learning going on.

Oh, Sisters in Crime. I almost forgot them, which would be bad. They offer workshops in mystery writing. And, no, you don't have to be a sister to belong and register for their conferences.

JD
 

PerditaDrury

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 12, 2005
Messages
132
Reaction score
12
Location
L.A.
JanDarby said:
Another consideration: What type of writing do you plan to do, during and after the MFA?

Most (not all; I'm sure there are exceptions) MFA programs focus on literary fiction, and many (again, not all; I've heard of exceptions f rom people in MFA programs, and when Jack Bickham was alive, he taught popular fiction writing at Iowa) of the instructors are neither inclined nor qualified to give feedback on popular fiction manuscripts.

JD

True about literary fiction being the predominant focus; I made this same argument with a group of students. One told me about this program:

http://www.setonhill.edu/academics/wpf_homepage.cfm?ACID=102
wpf_hometext1.gif



Seton Hill University's unique Master of Arts in Writing Popular Fiction teaches students to write marketable novels in popular genres like mystery, romance, science fiction, horror, and fantasy. Additional specialties include literature for children and adolescents, and cross-genre blends like romantic suspense or young adult mysteries.
Students attend two week-long, on-campus residencies each year to master the core elements of fiction writing and effective marketing and to gain inspiration from faculty mentors and special guests, all published authors in genre fiction. Established authors mentor students one-on-one as they work toward completing a market-ready manuscript from home. Readings, classes, and on-line discussion about the history, trends, and techniques of genre fiction add depth to the student's experience. So if you want to be a writer, if you are committed and independent, and if you seek real-world success for your creative work, then Seton Hill's Master of Arts in Writing Popular Fiction is designed for you.


I have no experience with this program but it certainly sounded interesting.
 

Deleted member 42

When you're looking at a graduate program, look at the faculty. Who are they? What do former students say? What have they written?

Really though, if what you want to do is Write, then write, and find something besides teaching to support you. Unless you are exceedingly unusual, writing while teaching in a non-tenure track job is difficult. It's exceedingly difficult if you are teaching writing. And it's not like there's a shortage of people to teach writing and lit classes; there's a glut. The upper level classes, and the creating writing classes, go to senior professionals.

The exception to this is, possibly, teaching Extension classes; that, however, rarely pays as well and does not include benefits, as a rule.
 

badducky

No Time For Chitchat, Kemosabe.
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 20, 2005
Messages
3,951
Reaction score
849
Location
San Antonio, TX
Website
jmmcdermott.blogspot.com
Medievalist said:
When you're looking at a graduate program, look at the faculty. Who are they? What do former students say? What have they written?

Really though, if what you want to do is Write, then write, and find something besides teaching to support you. Unless you are exceedingly unusual, writing while teaching in a non-tenure track job is difficult. It's exceedingly difficult if you are teaching writing. And it's not like there's a shortage of people to teach writing and lit classes; there's a glut. The upper level classes, and the creating writing classes, go to senior professionals.

The exception to this is, possibly, teaching Extension classes; that, however, rarely pays as well and does not include benefits, as a rule.

I've been through a writing program, and I noticed something very interesting. Only one of my teachers had actually gone through an MFA program. The others had published books. Lots of them. They worked other jobs, and published books. Then, because their books were good, they were invited to teach at the prestigious writing program.

If you want to teach writing, write exceedingly well, and do it for a few years.

If you want to get an MFA to teach writing... Well, you could go ahead and work at some other job now without the debt and the new location. You can write exceedingly well and fight for publication. Then, in a couple years, you can still teach writing.

However, if an MFA will help your writing, then an MFA is a great idea.

As Med said, there's a glut of folks wanting to teach writing. You will need to compete with not only the many MFA candidates, but also those authors that want to teach that have been busy publishing.
 

Deleted member 42

badducky said:
You will need to compete with not only the many MFA candidates, but also those authors that want to teach that have been busy publishing.

And again, unless you're exceedingly well-published and well-thought of, it isn't likely that you'll be teaching much more than comp classes, and maybe an intro survey course for non majors.

And if you've not taught comp before, there's a lot of grading; at some schools a comp class will have thirty students in it, with you doing all the grading, for several papers and in class writing assignments.

For three or four classes at a time.
 

Troilee

Registered
Joined
Jul 27, 2006
Messages
31
Reaction score
7
PerditaDrury said:
True about literary fiction being the predominant focus; I made this same argument with a group of students. One told me about this program:

http://www.setonhill.edu/academics/wpf_homepage.cfm?ACID=102
wpf_hometext1.gif



Seton Hill University's unique Master of Arts in Writing Popular Fiction teaches students to write marketable novels in popular genres like mystery, romance, science fiction, horror, and fantasy. Additional specialties include literature for children and adolescents, and cross-genre blends like romantic suspense or young adult mysteries.
Students attend two week-long, on-campus residencies each year to master the core elements of fiction writing and effective marketing and to gain inspiration from faculty mentors and special guests, all published authors in genre fiction. Established authors mentor students one-on-one as they work toward completing a market-ready manuscript from home. Readings, classes, and on-line discussion about the history, trends, and techniques of genre fiction add depth to the student's experience. So if you want to be a writer, if you are committed and independent, and if you seek real-world success for your creative work, then Seton Hill's Master of Arts in Writing Popular Fiction is designed for you.


I have no experience with this program but it certainly sounded interesting.
I'm in this program and I highly recommend it for anyone who wants to improve their craft relatively quickly. Each residency, I come home having learned so much it feels like it's seeping out my ears. At the residencies, there are general writing modules (Plot, Writing a Synopsis, etc) and genre-specific modules (genre markets, etc) as well as in-depth critiques with fellow students and mentors. We also have nationally known writers and publishing professionals come in to teach a module and also give a public presentation. My first residency we had Nancy Kress (SF writer, columnist for Writer's Digest), second residency was David Morrell (Rambo's daddy) who gave an incredible, if somewhat depressing, state of the market talk. This residency, we had Betsy Mitchell (Editor-in-Chief at Del Rey), Kate Seaver (Senior Editor at Berkley Publishing Group) and Ginger Clark (literary agent at Curtis Brown LTD).

After the residency, students spend the remainder of the term (4 months) working with their mentor (a published author) and critique partners. In order to graduate, students must have a polished, marketable manuscript.

We've got several current students who are published and have won various awards within their genres. Many graduates are also published and I know of several who have started their own small presses and have released (or are in the process of releasing) anthologies and such.

At the risk of sounding like a cheerleader, enrolling in Seton Hill is probably the best thing I've ever done for my writing.
 

Josie

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 16, 2006
Messages
605
Reaction score
39
How wonderful for you!!!

I'm green with Jealousy and Envy. Very green hee hee

Oh I guess I'll go over to the site again, at least I can do that.

Sigh:poke:
 

kbax

Refrigerate After Opening
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 15, 2006
Messages
101
Reaction score
15
Location
In your fridge
Website
kristophrenia.blogspot.com
at the risk of being debbie downer...

Just before I graduated, I talked with a prof about the low-res MFA idea. He definitely encouraged it, if I wanted to be a prof--but he recommended getting a PhD as well. Now, since MFA is the highest degree you can get in writing, the PhD would have to be something like education or English lit.

But he told me, warned me, that academia is highly competitive. His wife (ex-wife now), another prof of mine, taught English Lit at the same college. It's a decent college, not the best, but consistently ranked in the top 5 in the region in US News & World Report. Now, his wife--she was flipping BRILLIANT. Taught Middle English Lit, Chaucer etc., Bible as Lit, and Dante, as well as the upper-level freshman writing seminars (if you got higher grades on your Verbal SATs). BRILLIANT woman. And she had to compete with--get this--119 other profs to get her job. And we ain't talking Harvard here. She, I believe, had a master's and a PhD in her field.

So, I take his advice about the extreme competitive-ness and low security in academia, and what do I do?

Oh, I try to become a novelist. If anything, MORE competitive (at least in the # of people "in the game"; not necessarily in nature or spirit) and WAY less secure.

Yep. I'm a smart one.

But anyhow, when I was looking into the MFA track, I was considering Goddard, Antioch in L.A., and one other that I can't remember. All seemed fairly worthwhile. Good luck with all of it, if you decide to go for it! :)
 

mjlpsu

unidentifiable food tester
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 3, 2006
Messages
263
Reaction score
8
Location
New Jersey
Website
www.boozefoodtravel.com
kbax, MFA is not the highest degree for writing. There are a few creative PhDs out there now. I think maybe 5 or 6 in the country. Denver University offers one, but it's highly competitive to get accepted. I think last year they accepted 5 students... or something ridiculously low. My friend managed to get in.
 

kbax

Refrigerate After Opening
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 15, 2006
Messages
101
Reaction score
15
Location
In your fridge
Website
kristophrenia.blogspot.com
I stand corrected

kbax, MFA is not the highest degree for writing. There are a few creative PhDs out there now.

Really? Wow, I had no idea. :Shrug: That's definitely something worth looking into. I think all the literature I read from universities offering MFAs said it was the highest degree in the field, which is where I got the info from. Anyhow, that's very interesting information to have, and enlightening. Thank you!

And, wow, your friend must be an incredible writer. I think just getting accepted to something like that would be an honor. Congratulations to him/her! :)
 

emeraldcite

Art is Resistance
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 11, 2005
Messages
2,466
Reaction score
364
Location
Florida
Website
www.emeraldcite.blogspot.com
kbax, MFA is not the highest degree for writing. There are a few creative PhDs out there now.

Georgia State has one and there's one in Colorado too, but I can't remember which university. University of Georgia might also have one...I don't recall.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.