Shopping a currently POD book to agents--is it feasible?

RandyPendleton

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I've been away from AW for awhile, working on 2 books. As always, thanks to the AW community for your input in regards to my current book. After some thought, I've taken a long look at my book and saw it was in need of a line-per-line edit. This should be complete within 2 weeks.

I'm known for giving long posts, but I think I'll be to-the-point here. I opt for self-publishing for my debut novel "When You Leave This Way." There were a few reasons but mostly, I just had the feeling it wasn't a marketable book (it's no Twilight). Now, almost a year since it was released, I'm mulling the agent/traditional publishing thing. My question is: are there any realistic chances for the endeavor?

I thought the book was as ready as it could be when I launched it in April 2014. ppl here @ AW suggested I take a second look at it. It finished at around 132,000 words upon its initial release. By the time I wrap it up (likely 10-14 days), it'll be a lean 126k or so. (That might not sound 'lean' to you, but I think the original 1st draft was over 150k words).

It looks and sounds cleaner now, but I'm unsure if the self-publishing past will hurt it. FWIW, it's sold under 50 copies. Those I've hired to assist me with selling did a poor job... I won't make the mistake again of trying to market a book with little marketing funds.
 

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Shopping a currently POD book to agents--is it feasible?


By "currently POD book" do you mean a book which you've self-published, and which is still for sale?

I'd appreciate clarification. POD is a printing/business method, so our answers will be different depending on what the situation is.

I opt for self-publishing for my debut novel "When You Leave This Way." There were a few reasons but mostly, I just had the feeling it wasn't a marketable book (it's no Twilight). Now, almost a year since it was released, I'm mulling the agent/traditional publishing thing. My question is: are there any realistic chances for the endeavor?

It's "trade publishing", not "traditional".

If the book is good enough then you have a good chance of finding an agent. If it isn't, you don't.

I thought the book was as ready as it could be when I launched it in April 2014. ppl here @ AW suggested I take a second look at it. It finished at around 132,000 words upon its initial release. By the time I wrap it up (likely 10-14 days), it'll be a lean 126k or so. (That might not sound 'lean' to you, but I think the original 1st draft was over 150k words).

Much depends on the genre but it's probable that your book is still way too long.

It looks and sounds cleaner now, but I'm unsure if the self-publishing past will hurt it. FWIW, it's sold under 50 copies. Those I've hired to assist me with selling did a poor job... I won't make the mistake again of trying to market a book with little marketing funds.

It's sold very badly.

But that's a point in your favour if you do want to get an agent. It won't have made any real dent on its natural market with sales like that.

This is what you have to do next:

Take it down from sale. Check the usual length of books in your genre and if it's substantially longer than is usual, cut it until it isn't. Write a good query. Send that query out.
 

RandyPendleton

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Thanks for getting back to me. It was late when I wrote this initial thread-starter, thus I think a few details were missed. Let me clarify a bit:

By "currently POD book" do you mean a book which you've self-published, and which is still for sale?

I think we discussed POD issues in the past. To be perfectly clear on what I meant: the book was on sale via Createspace & Kindle. I took it off both late last year. After conferring with Createspace, I simply removed the book from their site. It might still show up in searches (I’m unsure), but the book cannot be ordered in any capacity.

It's "trade publishing", not "traditional".

I tend to use the terms interchangeably. But if they’re not, I suppose I need to correct myself.

If the book is good enough then you have a good chance of finding an agent. If it isn't, you don't.

“POD/self-published” had a nasty stigma long ago. It’s not as damning these days. I just wasn’t so sure if its POD past would damage all/any likelihood of this ever seeing trade (See? I’m correcting myself) publishing. I think it’s a good book, so I suppose there is some chance for it.

Much depends on the genre but it's probable that your book is still way too long.

I’ve mentioned it a little in several posts. But to quickly state the full thing, I opt against trade publishing since:


  • I was happy with the book being as long as it was at the time I published
  • With all of these YA books being churned out, I didn’t see much potential in this book--not when YA was seemingly dominating
  • I have a second book, and I didn’t feel as though I had the time to get this current book out to agents while still working on book #2

Now that a year had passed, the 2nd book is nearly ready for a final tune-up. So #3 isn’t an issue any longer. #2 was never a true issue since, well, this isn’t YA. Oh no, this is not YA. But... what is it? I need to figure out where this book sits. I’ve had a lot of comparisons to the works of V.C. Andrews--namely “Flowers in the Attic”--thus I surmised my book might be in the same genre (gothic horror, according to a Google search). But my book could be something different altogether. I’ll seriously look into it.

And what of #1? I opened a thread awhile back, pertaining to an issue of length, to get an idea of what the book should be, lengthwise. It was a helpful thread, as it got me to look closer at my work. The best thing I could do: go through it, line-per-line, and make my manuscript the best it could be. I thought it was ready for the world... it wasn’t. It’s another lesson I learned.

I’ve spoken to agents and publicists about the whole length thing. They’ve all said the same, that manuscripts (from new writer) that are over 100k words draw the ire of publishers. I weeded this down to 132k words and felt there was nothing left to trim, meaning I’d likely be rejected and thus would have been wasting my time. But I removed an entirely unnecessary passage and cut away additional fat from the rest. 126k still might be too long, but it’s a risk I’m now willing to take.

Yet I still need to figure out the genre. Ugh... I’ll do that soon.

It's sold very badly.

But that's a point in your favour if you do want to get an agent. It won't have made any real dent on its natural market with sales like that.

A grand mistake: instead of hiring ppl to help me with this, I instead had friends who volunteered their time, when they had the time to volunteer. Their time was extremely limited, and my marketing plans were shot to hell. I take the blame: I really should have had a real budget and hired the right ppl. (I actually hired one entity, but uh... long story short, they turned out to be a waste of my money).

I guess there is a silver-lining in the poor sales though.

This is what you have to do next:

Take it down from sale. Check the usual length of books in your genre and if it's substantially longer than is usual, cut it until it isn't. Write a good query. Send that query out.


Luckily, it’s been off sale for awhile now. Working as a lone-wolf hasn’t been helpful to me whatsoever, so I’ll ask the AW community for their 2 cents on genre issues. And of course, I’ll be here for my query letter, too.

Thanks for your help. It’s greatly appreciated :)
 

thothguard51

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I might also want to suggest that you should always inform an agent that the book was previously self published. Print on demand is not the issue, its that the book was self published.

Why?

Because most agent are searching the web for names and titles, etc. If the book was even bought by one person, it will show. They will then wonder why it did not sell well. Your lack of marketing may be one issue, but there are hundred of self published novels selling with very little or no marketing every year.

Now if during the search the agent finds it was a very good seller, he might be interested in overseas sales since that is new territory. This is not to say the agent would not be interested in U.S. sales as well, but if the book has been out and tanked, well...

The best I could say is to make sure the manuscript is as polished as it can be before you send it out to any agents, and be upfront with them about it the book has seen any form of publication before. Maybe not in the query letter, but if they show interest, then...
 

RandyPendleton

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This is great advice, thanks! I still need to get to 50 posts before I can post material. Once I can, I'll post my old query letter (written during the few months I panned on trade publishing). I'll see what ppl think of it. And of course, I'll modify all/anything needed. I'll open a thread on it all soon

I might also want to suggest that you should always inform an agent that the book was previously self published. Print on demand is not the issue, its that the book was self published.

Why?

Because most agent are searching the web for names and titles, etc. If the book was even bought by one person, it will show. They will then wonder why it did not sell well. Your lack of marketing may be one issue, but there are hundred of self published novels selling with very little or no marketing every year.

Now if during the search the agent finds it was a very good seller, he might be interested in overseas sales since that is new territory. This is not to say the agent would not be interested in U.S. sales as well, but if the book has been out and tanked, well...

The best I could say is to make sure the manuscript is as polished as it can be before you send it out to any agents, and be upfront with them about it the book has seen any form of publication before. Maybe not in the query letter, but if they show interest, then...
 

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I think we discussed POD issues in the past. To be perfectly clear on what I meant: the book was on sale via Createspace & Kindle. I took it off both late last year. After conferring with Createspace, I simply removed the book from their site. It might still show up in searches (I’m unsure), but the book cannot be ordered in any capacity.

It's still on Amazon
, but it's listed as out of stock. If anyone who bought one of the POD copies decides to sell that copy, it could well be ordered.

I tend to use the terms interchangeably. But if they’re not, I suppose I need to correct myself.

“POD/self-published” had a nasty stigma long ago. It’s not as damning these days.

They're not interchangeable. And neither are POD and self published. They're two very different things.

If you don't use the correct terms you're going to confuse people, and misunderstandings are going to arise. You don't want that.

I just wasn’t so sure if its POD past would damage all/any likelihood of this ever seeing trade (See? I’m correcting myself) publishing. I think it’s a good book, so I suppose there is some chance for it.

The way it was printed wouldn't scupper its chances but its publication history might.

I’ve mentioned it a little in several posts. But to quickly state the full thing, I opt against trade publishing since:


  • I was happy with the book being as long as it was at the time I published
  • With all of these YA books being churned out, I didn’t see much potential in this book--not when YA was seemingly dominating
  • I have a second book, and I didn’t feel as though I had the time to get this current book out to agents while still working on book #2
My bold.


That's very disparaging towards authors of YA books. Don't do that here. Thanks.



Now that a year had passed, the 2nd book is nearly ready for a final tune-up. So #3 isn’t an issue any longer. #2 was never a true issue since, well, this isn’t YA. Oh no, this is not YA. But... what is it? I need to figure out where this book sits. I’ve had a lot of comparisons to the works of V.C. Andrews--namely “Flowers in the Attic”--thus I surmised my book might be in the same genre (gothic horror, according to a Google search). But my book could be something different altogether. I’ll seriously look into it.

If your books aren't YA, why did you mention it? I don't understand.
I’ve spoken to agents and publicists about the whole length thing. They’ve all said the same, that manuscripts (from new writer) that are over 100k words draw the ire of publishers. I weeded this down to 132k words and felt there was nothing left to trim, meaning I’d likely be rejected and thus would have been wasting my time. But I removed an entirely unnecessary passage and cut away additional fat from the rest. 126k still might be too long, but it’s a risk I’m now willing to take.

I've looked at your website. Your prose is very convoluted and wordy. My betting is your book is too. And if it is, you would probably improve it significantly by cutting it to 80k.

A grand mistake: instead of hiring ppl to help me with this, I instead had friends who volunteered their time, when they had the time to volunteer. Their time was extremely limited, and my marketing plans were shot to hell. I take the blame: I really should have had a real budget and hired the right ppl. (I actually hired one entity, but uh... long story short, they turned out to be a waste of my money).

I guess there is a silver-lining in the poor sales though.

"ppl". Why use such abbreviations? We're meant to be writers here. Use words properly, or not at all.

http://www.absolutewrite.com//www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/
 

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Thanks for pointing that out. I just sent them an email, requesting them to retire the book completely.


It's still on Amazon
, but it's listed as out of stock. If anyone who bought one of the POD copies decides to sell that copy, it could well be ordered.

I'll definitely put this on a brain cell: they are not interchangeable.

They're not interchangeable. And neither are POD and self published. They're two very different things.

If you don't use the correct terms you're going to confuse people, and misunderstandings are going to arise. You don't want that.

It was a generalization that most books I see published these days are YA. In no way was I taking a shot at YA writers. I have full respect for them. But in the case my post felt insulting: I apologize to those affected. It was in no way intended for my words to elicit ill feelings.

That's very disparaging towards authors of YA books. Don't do that here. Thanks.

It was mentioned to convey a thought but now that I think of it, mentioning it didn't help get my point across. It'd have been better to not bring it up opposed to, well, bringing it up.

If your books aren't YA, why did you mention it? I don't understand.

You told me this in another thread. I agree with you: my wording in the site was WAY too verbose. It was never edited properly, and I let the words flow without much thought to the editoral process. You have my assurance: the book isn't anything like what you've read in my ill-advised book description. Although yes, the book itself did have some lingering fluff. I won't get into whether or not 126k words is a justifiable figure--not until I fully grasp what genre to classify this as. For now, all I can say is: from this line-per-line draft, I've erased pretty much all unnecessary lines and rewrote sentences to make the text shorter. I'll have an updated chapter 2 online in a week or so. You might want to skim it over.

I've looked at your website. Your prose is very convoluted and wordy. My betting is your book is too. And if it is, you would probably improve it significantly by cutting it to 80k.

This is a forum. No one needs to be 100% proficient on a forum. There is nothing wrong with using abbreviations in casual exchanges. I understand there is an inherent code for writers to always appear professional. "ppl" is a sin with story writing, yet it's perfectly fine with posts left on a forum.

"ppl". Why use such abbreviations? We're meant to be writers here. Use words properly, or not at all.
 

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It was a generalization that most books I see published these days are YA.

Really? YA books get a lot of hype now, it's true. But there are hundreds, if not thousands, of books published every year. YA books make up a small fraction of them. Even if you narrow it down to fiction, YA still only makes up a fraction of them.

Giving up on publishing because your book doesn't fit into a genre currently perceived as popular or trendy is extremely self-defeating. Besides, who knows? Next year, Gothic horror could be all the rage, and where will your book be then? If you start sending it out now, it will be right where it needs to be: in front of the eyeballs of agents and publishers.

Publishing is slow (believe me, I know). Trying to chase trends is a recipe for failure.
 
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RandyPendleton

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You hit the proverbial nail on the head This is why I'm changing course (one of the 3 mentioned above). My earlier belief was that my work couldn't survive in a niche outside of the youth-friendly genres. Truth be told, I honesty won't know unless I put this out there and see if any agent or publisher will bite. My plan is to have a few AW test-readers (if I can find a few willing) read my manuscript & weigh in on what genre it works best as. I'll make a new thread for it here soon.

(There are many non YA books published yearly. I know :) )

Really? YA books get a lot of hype now, it's true. But there are hundreds, if not thousands, of books published every year. YA books make up a small fraction of them. Even if you narrow it down to fiction, YA still only makes up a fraction of them.

Giving up on publishing because your book doesn't fit into a genre currently perceived as popular or trendy is extremely self-defeating. Besides, who knows? Next year, Gothic horror could be all the rage, and where will your book be then? If you start sending it out now, it will be right where it needs to be: in front of the eyeballs of agents and publishers.

Publishing is slow (believe me, I know). Trying to chase trends is a recipe for failure.
 

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Randy, it makes your posts more readable if you put your comments after the part you're responding to, not before.

Thanks for pointing that out. I just sent them an email, requesting them to retire the book completely.

Amazon isn't going to take your book down--at least, not the print edition. They don't, in my experience. It's because people might want to resell their second-hand copies of the print edition. It's up there for good.

I'll definitely put this on a brain cell: they are not interchangeable.

Ha! They aren't interchangeable. But don't feel bad: lots of people use the terms as if they are, and misuse many publishing terms completely. It does cause confusion, which is why I point it out. You'll get to grips with it, I'm sure.

It was a generalization that most books I see published these days are YA. In no way was I taking a shot at YA writers. I have full respect for them. But in the case my post felt insulting: I apologize to those affected. It was in no way intended for my words to elicit ill feelings.

I don't think most books which are published are YA.

We have one rule at AW, which is "respect your fellow writer": we don't want anyone to feel belittled by anyone else here. I'm glad you understand, and I hope you'll be more careful in future.

You told me this in another thread. I agree with you: my wording in the site was WAY too verbose. It was never edited properly, and I let the words flow without much thought to the editoral process. You have my assurance: the book isn't anything like what you've read in my ill-advised book description. Although yes, the book itself did have some lingering fluff. I won't get into whether or not 126k words is a justifiable figure--not until I fully grasp what genre to classify this as. For now, all I can say is: from this line-per-line draft, I've erased pretty much all unnecessary lines and rewrote sentences to make the text shorter. I'll have an updated chapter 2 online in a week or so. You might want to skim it over.

I suspect your updated chapter will still be too verbose. Give me a shout when you post it here in Share Your Work, and I'll take a look if I have time.


This is a forum. No one needs to be 100% proficient on a forum. There is nothing wrong with using abbreviations in casual exchanges. I understand there is an inherent code for writers to always appear professional. "ppl" is a sin with story writing, yet it's perfectly fine with posts left on a forum.

If you're happy with using abbreviations like that, go ahead. It is "perfectly fine" on other forums, you're right. However, AW is for writers, and it's not appropriate here.

Our comments here are indicative of the quality of our work. If your posts here are sloppy or inaccurate, chances are those same inaccuracies will slip into your books or articles.

It's up to you, of course.
 

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Some random thoughts here.

A. POD and trade publishing are also far from mutually exclusive these days.

B. Lol you do realize that VC Andrews is known for being massively popular with teenagers, even though parents etc... may be uncomfortable with that.

C. I definitely don't think you made a mistake not paying people to market your book. I doubt you would have recouped your investment in paying them.
 

RandyPendleton

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There were a few things out of my control in the past several weeks. I wasn’t able to pursue AW & leave enough meaningful/non fluff posts to gain permissions for adding to the SYW section. Things have calmed down a sizable amount, and I can now do some posting in here. Once I get to 50, I’ll put my chapter up. Anyway, let me add a few replies to this:

Randy, it makes your posts more readable if you put your comments after the part you're responding to, not before.


In forums, I tend to do one or the other. If it helps in AW, I’ll only add comments after.

Amazon isn't going to take your book down--at least, not the print edition. They don't, in my experience. It's because people might want to resell their second-hand copies of the print edition. It's up there for good.

Correct. I found that out after asking them to remove it from sale. Ugh. Well, I think there might be a grand total of 25 physical copies in the wild. So I’m not too concerned.

We have one rule at AW, which is "respect your fellow writer": we don't want anyone to feel belittled by anyone else here. I'm glad you understand, and I hope you'll be more careful in future.


I respect my fellow writers. I’d never belittle another writer. To be totally honest, I don’t see an insult in the comment I placed. It was inferred, I suppose. Still, I’ll be mindful of my words, as disrespect is never intended.

I suspect your updated chapter will still be too verbose. Give me a shout when you post it here in Share Your Work, and I'll take a look if I have time.

This is on me. You think as you do because of the product I’ve shown you. And that was a really poor-quality piece of writing. I do hope to change your mind about the nature of my work. Maybe my updated chapter will do the trick. We’ll see, if you have the time to read it over.

If you're happy with using abbreviations like that, go ahead. It is "perfectly fine" on other forums, you're right. However, AW is for writers, and it's not appropriate here.

Our comments here are indicative of the quality of our work. If your posts here are sloppy or inaccurate, chances are those same inaccuracies will slip into your books or articles.

It's up to you, of course.


The issue is disability. I’m paralyzed in a few places, including my right hand. Typing everything out one-handed is a strain. And yeah, it can hurt my fingers. In my stories/books/poetry I try to my best ability to use the most proficient grammar I’m capable of. I never use abbreviations in my works. On forums, I simply try to take strain off my hand. My usage of abbreviations is justified, I believe. The same however, I’ll try to keep them at a minimum.


Some random thoughts here.

A. POD and trade publishing are also far from mutually exclusive these days.

B. Lol you do realize that VC Andrews is known for being massively popular with teenagers, even though parents etc... may be uncomfortable with that.

C. I definitely don't think you made a mistake not paying people to market your book. I doubt you would have recouped your investment in paying them.


A I know. I’m hoping this will benefit me.

B Yes, I realize that and yes, the statement you made is exactly where the VC Andrews comparisons come from. What was the point in your “lol”?

C Originally, I regretted it. But now I don’t. My work wasn’t as “ready for the world” as I thought it was long ago
 

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The issue is disability. I’m paralyzed in a few places, including my right hand. Typing everything out one-handed is a strain. And yeah, it can hurt my fingers.

Oh, this reminds me, if you're thinking of doing a lot of writing with your good hand I've seen some cool one-handed keyboards out there - they kind of have a multi-button mouse shape that fit in one's palm. They use "chords" for groups of letters. I was thinking of getting one after a bout of back strain a couple of years ago.

I have friends who dictate their stories too. I think the software can't be as bad as my first draft typing! I'm a one-finger on each hand typist!
 

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T

B Yes, I realize that and yes, the statement you made is exactly where the VC Andrews comparisons come from. What was the point in your “lol”?

Sorry if that came across as less that respectful, I just thought it was a little amusing if people keep telling you that your work is like VC Andrews, and yet you're worried that no one will want it because it's not aimed at teenagers, because VC Andrews is massively popular with teenagers.

But your ideas about YA in general doesn't make sense to me at all sorry. Even in my local small bookstores in NZ there is a YA section, and a children's section, and an adults section. The adults section has plenty of fiction. My own publisher does not accept YA at all.

Some publishers and agents are looking for YA, and others are looking for adult fiction.
 
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EMaree

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Good morning Randy, nice to have you back at AW after your break. I've got two thoughts for you.

Thought #1: "I just had the feeling it wasn't a marketable book (it's no Twilight)" You gotta sort out the part of your head that keeps telling you this story isn't marketable. Gothic horror is REALLY popular right now -- take a look at Welcome to Night Vale (a podcast), and the Tumblr Regional Gothic trend. Gothic prose is well known right now, even among younger audience.

You talk a lot about your book here, but you don't really mention what you love about it, what makes you passionate about it? I'd like to know that, and what you think makes it unmarketable. If you're worried about the word count and verbosity, hey, it can be fixed. You're in a good place right now, you have the freedom to change this book into something that feels "marketable" to you, something you're confident in putting out in the world.

Thought #2: I entirely believe that you don't hate YA authors, but you do kinda fixate on it a lot in this thread -- Twilight references, and randomly discussing YA fiction when it's not your genre. What I'd like to know is: do you enjoy the typical YA writing style (readable, slim prose with a focus on dialogue and action)? Do you read a lot of it?

The reason I'm asking this is because sitting down and reading a lot of YA is a really good way to study fast-paced, commercial prose, and stories told in a very low wordcount. Considering one of the issues you bring up here is verbosity and word count, it could benefit you to study YA prose and try and adopt some of those habits.

That sort of style isn't exclusive to YA, either: a lot of urban fantasy authors rock it, JK Rowling's fairly good at it, and then there's Stephen King's The Dark Tower, Phillip Pullman's The Dark Materials, Garth Nix's The Old Kingdom series. Once your crack slim, elegant prose it's a really transferable skill.
 
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I respect my fellow writers. I’d never belittle another writer. To be totally honest, I don’t see an insult in the comment I placed. It was inferred, I suppose. Still, I’ll be mindful of my words, as disrespect is never intended.

There was an insult there, whether you see it or not. And the best response to being told you're causing offense is "I'm sorry," not, "I don't see an insult in the comment I placed."

This is on me. You think as you do because of the product I’ve shown you. And that was a really poor-quality piece of writing. I do hope to change your mind about the nature of my work. Maybe my updated chapter will do the trick. We’ll see, if you have the time to read it over.

I think as I do because I've seen many, many examples of work by inexperienced writers over the thirty or more years I've worked in publishing, and know what that work is usually like; and I've seen many, many new writers arrive here and post their work, and there's almost always a correlation to the language they use on the board and the language they use in their writing.

I'll look forward to seeing your work when you get something up.

The issue is disability. I’m paralyzed in a few places, including my right hand. Typing everything out one-handed is a strain. And yeah, it can hurt my fingers. In my stories/books/poetry I try to my best ability to use the most proficient grammar I’m capable of. I never use abbreviations in my works. On forums, I simply try to take strain off my hand. My usage of abbreviations is justified, I believe. The same however, I’ll try to keep them at a minimum.

I have a lot of problems with my hands and often struggle to type, so I can sympathise here. I've found voice recognition software really good; and I have a few digital pens which capture my handwriting, and transform it into a word processing file. It works very well. You might find them useful.
 

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Oh, this reminds me, if you're thinking of doing a lot of writing with your good hand I've seen some cool one-handed keyboards out there - they kind of have a multi-button mouse shape that fit in one's palm. They use "chords" for groups of letters. I was thinking of getting one after a bout of back strain a couple of years ago.

Thanks for the info. My good hand can surprisingly work a standard keyboard. In fact, my one-handed typing is better than the two-handed typing of many people I know. When I type, all of the necessary work is done with one hand, thus that lone hand performs twice the work as what two-handed typists do. That’s where the strain comes in.

Sorry if that came across as less that respectful, I just thought it was a little amusing if people keep telling you that your work is like VC Andrews, and yet your worried that no one will want it because it's not aimed at teenagers, because VC Andrews is massively popular with teenagers.

I get what you’re saying, and I (now) see the humor. I’m gonna elaborate on this issue below, but I should repeat something from earlier threads: I’m not sure exactly what classification I should use for this book. Once I get to 50 posts, I’ll add a chapter to the SYW section, with hopes of enlightenment on the issue.

Good morning Randy, nice to have you back at AW after your break. I've got two thoughts for you.

Thought #1: "I just had the feeling it wasn't a marketable book (it's no Twilight)" You gotta sort out the part of your head that keeps telling you this story isn't marketable. Gothic horror is REALLY popular right now -- take a look at Welcome to Night Vale (a podcast), and the Tumblr Regional Gothic trend. Gothic prose is well known right now, even among younger audience.

You talk a lot about your book here, but you don't really mention what you love about it, what makes you passionate about it? I'd like to know that, and what you think makes it unmarketable. If you're worried about the word count and verbosity, hey, it can be fixed. You're in a good place right now, you have the freedom to change this book into something that feels "marketable" to you, something you're confident in putting out in the world.

Thought #2: I entirely believe that you don't hate YA authors, but you do kinda fixate on it a lot in this thread -- Twilight references, and randomly discussing YA fiction when it's not your genre. What I'd like to know is: do you enjoy the typical YA writing style (readable, slim prose with a focus on dialogue and action)? Do you read a lot of it?

The reason I'm asking this is because sitting down and reading a lot of YA is a really good way to study fast-paced, commercial prose, and stories told in a very low wordcount. Considering one of the issues you bring up here is verbosity and word count, it could benefit you to study YA prose and try and adopt some of those habits.

That sort of style isn't exclusive to YA, either: a lot of urban fantasy authors rock it, JK Rowling's fairly good at it, and then there's Stephen King's The Dark Tower, Phillip Pullman's The Dark Materials, Garth Nix's The Old Kingdom series. Once your crack slim, elegant prose it's a really transferable skill.

Good afternoon, and thank you for your kind words. To address your two thoughts:

The best way I can really say it is: the subject matter of my work, I believed, is off-putting. Where is this Gothic horror/YA confusion?

1.) The story centers on a group of depraved children.
2.) There is a murder element, one orchestrated by a 12 year old
3.) Some of the child characters are profane, dropping an F-bomb here and there
4.) Drug use exists in here. None of the children use them (save for a cigarette-smoking teen)
5.) Sexual elements exist, as well. In 2 cases, it involves children (rape). I don’t detail or narrate those parts. The reader only knows they happen by the characters’ admission.

The concept of this book has numerous origins, some spawning from my primitive years. My mother wedded a terrible drunk. My sister and I ran away from home once, out of anger over his presence. We returned later that day, thankfully. Anecdotes from those days paved the way to this story. In a bizarre sense, this book is like a warped memoir, with things grotesquely exaggerated. Much of it is there: The abusive, drunk dad; the running away; the struggles with poverty. Exaggerated or not, there are glimpses and pieces of Randy Pendleton in this thing. The book has serious, dramatic tones in some parts and funny, comical elements/dialogue laced in. It mirrors my own life in that regard.

I didn’t write this for fame or fortune (it might sound like it from my many Rowling references, I admit). I had a story, and I wanted to tell it. It’s kinda personal to me. The five items I’ve numbered above make up the roadblock--or does it? I’ve struggled to find the exact niche, thus I wasn’t sure if it fit in one, at all. I’ve looked through umbrella genres, and they didn’t feel right. But as well, the concepts my book covers made me wary. Would a publisher--or an agent--take on a risqué book by an unknown writer? After sending out a few queries, I just decided to stop. Honestly, not knowing your book’s genre is bad. Having such risqué elements makes it seem a harder sell to me. Now though, I want to try it again. I’m just struggling with that damn genre issue.

On the YA thing: as I don’t really know what my work is, it might be best for me to stop talking about it. I’ve thought of YA, juvenile fiction, adult fiction etc. A few were ruled out. These days, I read a ton but mostly only news. I’ve been too busy to read an actual book...this summer, once I get my current two books outta the way, I’ll have more time to do it.

There was an insult there, whether you see it or not. And the best response to being told you're causing offense is "I'm sorry," not, "I don't see an insult in the comment I placed."



I think as I do because I've seen many, many examples of work by inexperienced writers over the thirty or more years I've worked in publishing, and know what that work is usually like; and I've seen many, many new writers arrive here and post their work, and there's almost always a correlation to the language they use on the board and the language they use in their writing.

I'll look forward to seeing your work when you get something up.



I have a lot of problems with my hands and often struggle to type, so I can sympathise here. I've found voice recognition software really good; and I have a few digital pens which capture my handwriting, and transform it into a word processing file. It works very well. You might find them useful.

1.) It’s best for the community for me to simply apologize. Although it wasn’t intended, I apologize if I’ve offended anyone.
2.) The correlation makes sense. I don’t like being one of those “I’m an exception” people, but disability plays a large role here. I can differentiate my professional writings with my casual. Any subpar work of mine you see in forum/public is a result of my one-handed typing and the strain it puts on me. It can hurt even my thought process at times, hence at why I can ramble a bit in public writing. Five brain tumors are no help, either.
3.) My voice is also pretty bad, but this digital pen you speak of sounds worth looking into. Thanks :)
 

Beachgirl

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I will second Old Hack's recommendation of a digital pen. I just started using one at work with my new Microsoft Surface Pro tablet and the accuracy of the pen is far beyond what I was anticipating. The tablet and pen can be adjusted for sensitivity, so I can handwrite with very little pressure on the screen and almost no strain on my hand, even with arthritis in my fingers. It's much easier that writing with ink pen and paper and I'm even starting to prefer it over a keyboard.
 

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1.) It’s best for the community for me to simply apologize. Although it wasn’t intended, I apologize if I’ve offended anyone.
Not to labour the point, since you've apologized, but just so you know- I think it was the word "churned" that people found offensive.

If you say authors are "churning out" a certain type of book then there is an implication that you think those books are all poor quality, and just being "churned out" to make money.

The implication with "churned" is that the authors aren't putting their all into trying to produce quality books, and this is offensive to pretty much any author.

Also YA isn't even a genre. It is an age category. YA comes in many different genres, just as adult fiction comes in many different genres.
 

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Thanks for the info. My good hand can surprisingly work a standard keyboard. In fact, my one-handed typing is better than the two-handed typing of many people I know. When I type, all of the necessary work is done with one hand, thus that lone hand performs twice the work as what two-handed typists do. That’s where the strain comes in.



I get what you’re saying, and I (now) see the humor. I’m gonna elaborate on this issue below, but I should repeat something from earlier threads: I’m not sure exactly what classification I should use for this book. Once I get to 50 posts, I’ll add a chapter to the SYW section, with hopes of enlightenment on the issue.



Good afternoon, and thank you for your kind words. To address your two thoughts:

The best way I can really say it is: the subject matter of my work, I believed, is off-putting. Where is this Gothic horror/YA confusion?

1.) The story centers on a group of depraved children.
2.) There is a murder element, one orchestrated by a 12 year old
3.) Some of the child characters are profane, dropping an F-bomb here and there
4.) Drug use exists in here. None of the children use them (save for a cigarette-smoking teen)
5.) Sexual elements exist, as well. In 2 cases, it involves children (rape). I don’t detail or narrate those parts. The reader only knows they happen by the characters’ admission.



I didn’t write this for fame or fortune (it might sound like it from my many Rowling references, I admit). I had a story, and I wanted to tell it. It’s kinda personal to me. The five items I’ve numbered above make up the roadblock--or does it?
No. I don't think those five things are any kind of roadblock at all. I think you're worrying about all the wrong things. I actually think your premise sounds potentially terrific. (A 12 year old organizes a murder.)

Readers, agents, publishers want books where things happen. Your premise isn't dull. Therefore I think in itself it has a great chance of appealing to publishers/agents/readers if you make sure the book is the best book it can be. If you had no bites from your query letters your query may be bad.

If your book centers on a murder, then it could be a psychological thriller, although you are saying it could be called Gothic horror? It could also possibly just come under the category of general fiction and there is such a category.

It obviously goes in the category of adult fiction, even if it is the kind of book a teen might pick up, because it has teen characters.

You only have to worry about "risque" elements if you are writing for YA. The only exception would be if you had any detailed explicit sex scenes involving underage characters. But you have said you do not.

Having a character mention something that happened isn't in and of itself going to make all agents and publishers reject a manuscript, no matter what it is these days.

I think you should ask yourself if you have a strong coherent plot, or does your novel ramble?

If you have a strong coherent thriller or horror type plot, then you know your genre and you're good to go, and you should be concentrating on a rewrite to make the book the best it can be.

If you really don't think you have a horror or thriller novel, then it may be general fiction, but I'm just hoping you have a strong plot that actually goes somewhere.

A book in any genre, written for any age level can potentially break out and be popular. There are agents and publishers looking for books in all genres , you just have to do your research to see who is looking for your genre.

Worrying about your book not being the same as the few smash break out novels that have made millions of dollars is a waste of time, when you should be worrying about making your manuscript tighter and stronger.
 
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Old Hack

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I will second Old Hack's recommendation of a digital pen. I just started using one at work with my new Microsoft Surface Pro tablet and the accuracy of the pen is far beyond what I was anticipating. The tablet and pen can be adjusted for sensitivity, so I can handwrite with very little pressure on the screen and almost no strain on my hand, even with arthritis in my fingers. It's much easier that writing with ink pen and paper and I'm even starting to prefer it over a keyboard.

The digital pens I use work with any sort of paper: I don't need a tablet to use them. That way I get two copies: the digital one, and the paper one. So if the digital pen malfunctions before I download the work to my computer, I don't lose the work.

Not to labour the point, since you've apologized, but just so you know- I think it was the word "churned" that people found offensive.

If you say authors are "churning out" a certain type of book then there is an implication that you think those books are all poor quality, and just being "churned out" to make money.

The implication with "churned" is that the authors aren't putting their all into trying to produce quality books, and this is offensive to pretty much any author.

That was the problem, ginger. You're right.
 

Old Hack

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I've received a few enquiries about the digital pens that I use: they are the z-pen from DaneElec (I think!) and the AceCad DigiMemo system. The latter is the one I use the most, but they are both similar in terms of accuracy and ease of use.
 

Barbara R.

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Most agents I know (a bunch) will not consider a previously published book, no matter how it was published, because publishers don't want them. If the book sold well, then they will assume that the first flush of sales has been had, and not by them; basically they'd be acquiring a backlist book, and they already have plenty of those. If it sold poorly, they figure that it had its chance and failed. No matter that the marketing was poorly done, etc.--publishers always blame the writer for poor sales. If you'd like to hear it from the horse's mouth, here's an interview with literary agent Gail Hochman, who's also president of the literary agents' trade association, the AAR.

The only exception is a phenomenally-selling book like 50 SHADES.

The fact that you've self-published is not in itself reason for agents and pubsishers to dismiss future work--once it was, but no longer. But your best shot of breaking into trade publishing would be with a new, unpublished book.
 
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RandyPendleton

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Not to labour the point, since you've apologized, but just so you know- I think it was the word "churned" that people found offensive.

If you say authors are "churning out" a certain type of book then there is an implication that you think those books are all poor quality, and just being "churned out" to make money.

The implication with "churned" is that the authors aren't putting their all into trying to produce quality books, and this is offensive to pretty much any author.

Also YA isn't even a genre. It is an age category. YA comes in many different genres, just as adult fiction comes in many different genres.

That was the problem, ginger. You're right.

I’ve never once had issues with the term until now. As you can see here, I wasn’t in the wrong by saying it. The underlying issue, I’m thinking, is: What is nugatory in one industry isn’t as harmless in another. I didn’t see the insult before, but ginger really got the explanation down. Thanks to ginger for that & for Old Hack confirming it. I used the term meaning “mass-produced.” The insult was the term being read as “people writing quick works with little/no regard to quality.” It’s a moot point now, but at the least I understand WHY it’s considered an insult. Because of this, I now understand what I need to avoid. “Churned” isn’t as harmless with writers as I thought. I’ll watch my usage of it.

Man, I feel like I’m in Clerks 2 or something. lol

No. I don't think those five things are any kind of roadblock at all. I think you're worrying about all the wrong things. I actually think your premise sounds potentially terrific. (A 12 year old organizes a murder.)

Readers, agents, publishers want books where things happen. Your premise isn't dull. Therefore I think in itself it has a great chance of appealing to publishers/agents/readers if you make sure the book is the best book it can be. If you had no bites from your query letters your query may be bad.

If your book centers on a murder, then it could be a psychological thriller, although you are saying it could be called Gothic horror? It could also possibly just come under the category of general fiction and there is such a category.

It obviously goes in the category of adult fiction, even if it is the kind of book a teen might pick up, because it has teen characters.

You only have to worry about "risque" elements if you are writing for YA. The only exception would be if you had any detailed explicit sex scenes involving underage characters. But you have said you do not.

Having a character mention something that happened isn't in and of itself going to make all agents and publishers reject a manuscript, no matter what it is these days.

I think you should ask yourself if you have a strong coherent plot, or does your novel ramble?

If you have a strong coherent thriller or horror type plot, then you know your genre and you're good to go, and you should be concentrating on a rewrite to make the book the best it can be.

If you really don't think you have a horror or thriller novel, then it may be general fiction, but I'm just hoping you have a strong plot that actually goes somewhere.

A book in any genre, written for any age level can potentially break out and be popular. There are agents and publishers looking for books in all genres , you just have to do your research to see who is looking for your genre.

Worrying about your book not being the same as the few smash break out novels that have made millions of dollars is a waste of time, when you should be worrying about making your manuscript tighter and stronger.

Before I get further into this replay, it might be best for me to clarify something: The 12-year old doesn’t organize a murder. Rather, events bring him to the breaking point and what results isn’t pretty. The actual murder is in the chapter I plan to post here in a bit. I’m still working up to 50 posts. And I don’t wanna fluff my count with BS/fluff posts. So here shortly, I’ll have my 50. With that, I’ll have the permission to use the SYW sections. Brandon (the 12 year old) does plan quite a few things, though. This death isn’t one of them: it’s the result of reaching a snapping point.

“It obviously goes in the category of adult fiction, even if it is the kind of book a teen might pick up, because it has teen characters.” This helps tremendously. I thought, “I have young characters, so this might be more YA.” But then I got to thinking of the above 5-item list, and my thoughts became conflicted. When I signed up to AW, my first question had to do with length. That was because different genres have different minimums. Fantasy (unless I’m mistaken) is typically acceptable with a longer word count since they require lots of description. YA (ditto) is generally shorter. Kids don’t wanna read 500 pages. Without knowing my genre, I wasn’t sure what the acceptable length of my work should be. But now, I have a good idea.

“When You Leave This Way” is a coming-of-age story, where the characters exist in ways no child should ever have to endure. It’s a huge embellishment of my past. Yeah, there are parts where the characters just talk things out. But for the most part, things are happening. I’ll have a description written out for my SYW thread. But to answer you (“I think you should ask yourself if you have a strong coherent plot, or does your novel ramble?”): It’s a coherent story. I admit the earlier draft I’ve mentioned Hack reading wasn’t edited properly. It rambled a good bit, not only with sentences having unnecessary text but unnecessary sentences. Within a week, I should have the book re-drafted completely, knocking out about 7,500 words. After a line-per-line reading, I found the overdrawn verbiage that weighed it all down. It was removed. I won’t be arrogant and say this is a great book--everyone will have his own opinion--but I do think it’s good. And it’s coherent/linear.

Most agents I know (a bunch) will not consider a previously published book, no matter how it was published, because publishers don't want them. If the book sold well, then they will assume that the first flush of sales has been had, and not by them; basically they'd be acquiring a backlist book, and they already have plenty of those. If it sold poorly, they figure that it had its chance and failed. No matter that the marketing was poorly done, etc.--publishers always blame the writer for poor sales. If you'd like to hear it from the horse's mouth, here's an interview with literary agent Gail Hochman, who's also president of the literary agents' trade association, the AAR.

The only exception is a phenomenally-selling book like 50 SHADES.

The fact that you've self-published is not in itself reason for agents and pubsishers to dismiss future work--once it was, but no longer. But your best shot of breaking into trade publishing would be with a new, unpublished book.

This was a fear I had. I’m still going to take a stab at it, knowing I might fail. I have a 2nd book that should be ready (edited/polished) by the end of summer. Unless I’m recommended not to, I’ll pitch both this year.