Grammar question

Lauram6123

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Which one is correct?

Context- Female patient is about to get a new medical procedure from Dr. Brown.

Truth be told, Dr. Brown was more nervous than she was.

Truth be told, Dr. Brown was more nervous than her.
 

Jamesaritchie

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Truth be told, Dr. Brown was more nervous than she was..
 

Bufty

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The first one.

Simple test- turn the statements around.

Which one is correct?

Context- Female patient is about to get a new medical procedure from Dr. Brown.

Truth be told, Dr. Brown was more nervous than she was. Correct

Truth be told, she was more nervous than Dr. Brown was. Correct

Truth be told, Dr. Brown was more nervous than her. Incorrect

Truth be told, her was more nervous than Dr Brown. Obviously not right.
 
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BethS

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Which one is correct?

Context- Female patient is about to get a new medical procedure from Dr. Brown.

Truth be told, Dr. Brown was more nervous than she was.

Truth be told, Dr. Brown was more nervous than her.

The first one. You could get by with the second one in dialogue only.
 

TheNighSwan

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The second is only incorrect to the extent that some authoritative sources consider it incorrect; but others authoritative sources (like Merriam-Webster) consider "than" + object pronoun a perfectly valid form. And usage is on their side, since most people say that.

The inversion test doesn't make much sense; that amounts to arguing that "He is smitten with me" is an invalid sentence because you can't say "me is smitten with he". "Than" simply demands a different form of the pronoun if that pronoun stands alone.

It works exactly the same way in French:

Il est plus nerveux que je ne le suis. (he is more nervous than I am)
Il est plus nerveux que moi. (he is more nervous than me)

Both sentences are correct in French.
 

guttersquid

I agree with Roxxsmom.
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The NighSwan, I posted earlier that both sentences are correct, but I deleted my post when others seemed adamant that only the first is correct. But now that you've chimed in, let me expand on your post. After all, I think it's best if the OP gets all information in order to decide which to use.

When the personal pronoun is the subject of a clause, we use the subjective form (she). When the pronoun is the object of a clause, we use the objective form (her).

Many grammarians argue that words such as than are often used as prepositions, so when the pronoun is the object of the preposition, we use the objective form (her). Such usage is now widely regarded as acceptable in all but the most formal writing. And that is why both sentences are correct.

And the inversion test is not infallible. Consider these sentences:

Mary liked John more than I.
Mary liked John more than me.

Now invert them.

I liked John more than Mary. (correct)
Me liked John more than Mary. (incorrect)

But whether or not the original versions are correct, we must know the intent of the sentences. In order to know that, we must parse them.

Mary liked John more than I [liked John]. (correct)
Mary liked John more than [she liked] me. (also correct)*

In the second sentence, the inversion test fails even though the sentence is correct.

*Because of the than=preposition case described earlier, "Mary liked John more than me" would still be correct even if the meaning of the sentence was the same as the first sentence.
 

Bufty

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In brief, you're saying that, as always, context is relevant.

The NighSwan, I posted earlier that both sentences are correct, but I deleted my post when others seemed adamant that only the first is correct. But now that you've chimed in, let me expand on your post. After all, I think it's best if the OP gets all information in order to decide which to use.

When the personal pronoun is the subject of a clause, we use the subjective form (she). When the pronoun is the object of a clause, we use the objective form (her).

Many grammarians argue that words such as than are often used as prepositions, so when the pronoun is the object of the preposition, we use the objective form (her). Such usage is now widely regarded as acceptable in all but the most formal writing. And that is why both sentences are correct.

And the inversion test is not infallible. Consider these sentences:

Mary liked John more than I.
Mary liked John more than me.

Now invert them.

I liked John more than Mary. (correct)
Me liked John more than Mary. (incorrect)

But whether or not the original versions are correct, we must know the intent of the sentences. In order to know that, we must parse them.

Mary liked John more than I [liked John]. (correct)
Mary liked John more than [she liked] me. (also correct)*

In the second sentence, the inversion test fails even though the sentence is correct.

*Because of the than=preposition case described earlier, "Mary liked John more than me" would still be correct even if the meaning of the sentence was the same as the first sentence.
 

Bufty

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In the alternative cases in question put forward by you, context/intent will certainly matter.

The OP put her original phrases in context, hence the prior brief replies.
 

guttersquid

I agree with Roxxsmom.
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The OP put her original phrases in context, hence the prior brief replies.

In the context described by the OP the answer is still that both sentences are correct. Only in the most formal writing would the second not be allowed. I admit, though, that I prefer the first.
 
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DavidMivshek

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Dr. Brown is the subject of the sentence, not "her." She is the object. Therefore "her" would be the correct pronoun. "She" is used if the girl was used subjectively in the sentence. I think the problem is coming with the word "was" after the word "she." It leads us to fill in the rest of the sentence that's not there. It's actually redundantly placed, as the "was" following "Dr. Brown" is all that's needed...

  1. Truth be told, Dr. Brown was more nervous than her.
  2. Truth be told, Dr. Brown was more nervous than her concerning the surgery.
  3. Concerning the surgery, truth be told, Dr. Brown was more nervous than her.
 

Maryn

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David, I cannot agree. I consider all three of your examples incorrect except in dialogue or with a narrator who doesn't follow the rules of grammar.

Maryn, sipping the last of the coffee
 

King Neptune

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I agree with Maryn on that. That construction using "than" has an unspoken "was" for a verb

1. Truth be told, Dr. Brown was more nervous than she was.
2.Truth be told, Dr. Brown was more nervous than she was concerning the surgery.
3.Concerning the surgery, truth be told, Dr. Brown was more nervous she was.

Even if one does not write the "was". it is still there.
 
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CathleenT

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I would've said only the first, too. I had no idea the second could be correct, even in dialogue.

I love this place.
 

DavidMivshek

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David, I cannot agree. I consider all three of your examples incorrect except in dialogue or with a narrator who doesn't follow the rules of grammar.

Maryn, sipping the last of the coffee

Could you qualify your response by informing me on the rules of grammar then, please.
 

cornflake

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Could you qualify your response by informing me on the rules of grammar then, please.

Oh, allow me. Maryn may be busy turning her hat into pie guard.

Than is being employed conjunctively in the sentences you wrote, thus the nominative case is correct.
 

TheNighSwan

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Except some grammarians argue that "than" in those kinds of sentences is, in fact, employed prepositionally, and so the oblique case is correct.

What we can objectively say about this contention is that both structures exist, both are used by the general public and by literate writers, and both are defended by legitimate grammarians.

In these conditions, rejecting one as ungrammatical is only a matter of personal preference.
 

cornflake

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Except some grammarians argue that "than" in those kinds of sentences is, in fact, employed prepositionally, and so the oblique case is correct.

What we can objectively say about this contention is that both structures exist, both are used by the general public and by literate writers, and both are defended by legitimate grammarians.

In these conditions, rejecting one as ungrammatical is only a matter of personal preference.

Those people are, objectively, being ridiculous. So... :)

They are both used by the general public. The same group that regularly employs structures like, 'would of,' and 'she took Bob and I to the farm.'
 

TheNighSwan

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Yes, your argument looks really good when you deliberatedly ignore two thirds of mine.

God forbid a language offer choice between equally valid grammatical structures for a given meaning…
 

Chase

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God forbid a language offer choice between equally valid grammatical structures for a given meaning…

I think the key phrase here is "equally valid."

Because some writers incorporated poor grammar and mistakes in the past doesn't really give carte blanche to pedal them as good grammar.

"If it was good enough for 'X,' it's good enough for me" may be a okay for pushing a deviation of style, but it remains a weak rationale for bogus grammar.
 

TheNighSwan

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People use it.
Good writers use it.
Grammarians approve of it.

What the heck more does it take before you consider a construction "valid"?

Nobody's saying you have to like and use that construction, but calling it ungrammatical when there's no objective evidence that it is so is just wrongheaded.
 

evilrooster

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Prescriptivists, stop with the sniping before I highlight the grammatical and syntactic errors in your posts.

And descriptivists, back off or I'll tell you what your grammatical and syntactic choices are revealing about your character.