Poor man's e-mail copyright

morngnstar

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 9, 2014
Messages
2,271
Reaction score
297
I've looked through the FAQs on copyright, and most of my questions were answered, but a few linger.

Poor man's copyright (mailing a copy of your ms to yourself) has been debunked all over the internet. E-mailing a copy to yourself hasn't been discussed as much. Would this have any value in defending your copyright? It seems to more reliably prove the date associated with the content. Although e-mail headers can be forged, if necessary you could obtain records from your e-mail provider that their servers handled the message on that date.

Also, does date matter at all? Suppose someone claimed the manuscript was in their possession on such-and-such a date, and I had no proof that it was in my possession on a prior date. Does that help their case in any way? If so, how else can I prove the date of my drafts and ms? Computer files have dates, but these can be easily forged.

I know I'm likely to get the advice, "Don't worry about it," but is there any little thing I should do that can't hurt and might help?
 

Bufty

Where have the last ten years gone?
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 9, 2005
Messages
16,768
Reaction score
4,663
Location
Scotland
E-mail shows you e-mailed it to wherever you e-mailed it on the date it was sent. By all means send yourself a copy or your closest pal or whoever you wish. The manuscript must have been in your possession on that date.

But proof of original creation of the manuscript is the important factor.

And you're assuming your hard drive is completely wiped clean and you have also lost all your back up copies and all your records and notes and never sent it anywhere at any time to anybody else or...

Relax.

First, someone has to steal your manuscript and try to make some money off publishing/selling it and that just ain't going to happen because for a thief there are thousands of other things that are far more worth stealing and more quickly converted into easy cash for far less work, no expense, and little or no effort.

Thieves want easy money and manuscripts are not easy money to anyone.

Think about it for a moment. How would you go about making money out of stealing my manuscript, proving you wrote it, publish it and sell copies for cash, and not get caught? I bet you don't know where you would start. And there's your answer.
 
Last edited:

Cathy C

Ooo! Shiny new cover!
Kind Benefactor
Absolute Sage
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jun 5, 2005
Messages
9,907
Reaction score
1,834
Location
Hiding in my writing cave
Website
www.cathyclamp.com
Also remember that you can't copyright an IDEA, so emailing yourself an early version of a manuscript only proves that you wrote something "sorta similar but not really my final version", which doesn't mean anything. See, copyright is a snapshot of a given moment in time. It protects the words written in the exact order they're written. Add a chapter? Poof--no more protection for the new words. Change your character's name or backstory? Poof. Same thing.

That's why so many people don't worry about copyrighting until it's the final published version--because it doesn't help you until that moment.
 

Larry M

Banned
Joined
Jul 13, 2013
Messages
1,057
Reaction score
331
Location
Texas
Website
www.amazon.com
I've looked through the FAQs on copyright, and most of my questions were answered, but a few linger.

Poor man's copyright (mailing a copy of your ms to yourself) has been debunked all over the internet...

How so?

If you send a complete copy of your manuscript to yourself via registered mail and do not open it, that can serve as proof of the date you created it if it ever became necessary to use it in court.
 

Bufty

Where have the last ten years gone?
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 9, 2005
Messages
16,768
Reaction score
4,663
Location
Scotland
Oh, Larry.

How do you prove you never opened the envelope?

How do you prove it was properly sealed in the first place?

How do you prove the contents are the same now as they were when it was stamped?

How so?

If you send a complete copy of your manuscript to yourself via registered mail and do not open it, that can serve as proof of the date you created it if it ever became necessary to use it in court.
 
Last edited:

Ketzel

Leaving on the 2:19
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 12, 2005
Messages
1,835
Reaction score
262
There is no such thing as "poor man's copyright" under the current Copyright Act in the US. It was, at most, a primitive way to preserve some evidence of when a manuscript was created, prior to extensive revisions in the law in the 1970s, and it was never looked on with much favor by the courts, even then. Judges knew full well that it was possible to mail yourself an open envelope (or steam open a sealed and date-stamped envelope) and put anything you wanted to inside. Plus, "poor man's copyright" isn't evidence of either the originality or the authorship of the manuscript. It's just proof that someone mailed an envelope to himself on a given day.

Copyright attaches as soon as the work is in a fixed form. You don't have to do anything to own the copyright; it's automatic. If you are worried about infringement and want legally sufficient evidence of the time of its creation, you can register the work under the Act, an option that wasn't available prior to 1976.
 

amergina

Pittsburgh Strong
Staff member
Moderator
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 20, 2007
Messages
15,599
Reaction score
2,471
Location
Pittsburgh, PA
Website
www.annazabo.com
Your work is under copyright protection as soon as you set it down.

If you're worried about someone someday stealing your manuscript or plagiarizing or charging you with plagiarizing...the best thing to do now is keep all your notes and drafts and whatnot for your manuscript. This provides better proof that the work is yours than an envelope mailed to yourself. (I am not a lawyer.)

For more information about copyright in the US:

http://copyright.gov/help/faq/index.html
 
Last edited:

Larry M

Banned
Joined
Jul 13, 2013
Messages
1,057
Reaction score
331
Location
Texas
Website
www.amazon.com
Oh, Larry.

How do you prove you never opened the envelope?

How do you prove it was properly sealed in the first place?

How do you prove the contents are the same now as they were when it was stamped?

And so what you're saying is there are people who have taken the time and trouble to mail envelopes to themselves, with the intention of waiting until someone 'steals' their work, so they can insert the appropriate manuscript, reseal it, and then attempt to prove copyright infringement?

It would be far easier for me to believe that the envelope was never opened, it was properly sealed in the first place, and the contents are the same now as they were when first stamped.
 

amergina

Pittsburgh Strong
Staff member
Moderator
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 20, 2007
Messages
15,599
Reaction score
2,471
Location
Pittsburgh, PA
Website
www.annazabo.com
And so what you're saying is there are people who have taken the time and trouble to mail envelopes to themselves, with the intention of waiting until someone 'steals' their work, so they can insert the appropriate manuscript, reseal it, and then attempt to prove copyright infringement?

It would be far easier for me to believe that the envelope was never opened, it was properly sealed in the first place, and the contents are the same now as they were when first stamped.

You can mail your manuscript to yourself. It's a useless endeavor, though and won't help in court.

Here's words right from federal government about the poorman's copyright:

http://copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-general.html#poorman

The practice of sending a copy of your own work to yourself is sometimes called a “poor man’s copyright.” There is no provision in the copyright law regarding any such type of protection, and it is not a substitute for registration.

Also, please see Medievalist's lovely FAQ: FAQ: Copyright

Hands down, the best evidence you can have in the very unlikely event that you go to court is your drafts, emails to critique partners/beta readers/editors, notes about your manuscript, different versions, etc.

When you've published your work, then register the copyright with the government (or your publisher will). It's $35 and you can do it online.
 

Cyia

Rewriting My Destiny
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 15, 2008
Messages
18,619
Reaction score
4,032
Location
Brillig in the slithy toves...
It's not free, and not something I'm recommending, but if you're that determined to prove a date, then you can have your MS registered with the writer's guild.

Publishing isn't like proof-of-life, though. Having a picture of your novel with a newspaper proving it existed on a certain date isn't going to do you much good. Different people have the same idea at the same time.

(Google Dennis the Menace US/UK if you want to see the freakiest international version of the phenomenon.)
 

robjvargas

Rob J. Vargas
Banned
Joined
Dec 9, 2011
Messages
6,543
Reaction score
511
And so what you're saying is there are people who have taken the time and trouble to mail envelopes to themselves, with the intention of waiting until someone 'steals' their work, so they can insert the appropriate manuscript, reseal it, and then attempt to prove copyright infringement?

How 'bout sticking a successful work in a premailed envelope in an effort to claim that you wrote it first?

I don't find any records, but that only means it never got to court, because courts don't accept this.
 

T Robinson

Born long ago, in a different era
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 22, 2013
Messages
1,282
Reaction score
212
Location
Southern USA
And so what you're saying is there are people who have taken the time and trouble to mail envelopes to themselves, with the intention of waiting until someone 'steals' their work, so they can insert the appropriate manuscript, reseal it, and then attempt to prove copyright infringement?

It would be far easier for me to believe that the envelope was never opened, it was properly sealed in the first place, and the contents are the same now as they were when first stamped.

You are definitely not a cynical paranoid.
 

Larry M

Banned
Joined
Jul 13, 2013
Messages
1,057
Reaction score
331
Location
Texas
Website
www.amazon.com
How 'bout sticking a successful work in a premailed envelope in an effort to claim that you wrote it first?

I don't find any records, but that only means it never got to court, because courts don't accept this.

I guess I'm not devious, because it would not occur to me to do that unless I actually did write it.

You are definitely not a cynical paranoid.

And I guess that is a good thing.
 

Old Hack

Such a nasty woman
Super Moderator
Absolute Sage
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jun 12, 2005
Messages
22,454
Reaction score
4,956
Location
In chaos
Larry, poor man's copyright doesn't work. It's never been used in court to prove anything, because there are too many flaws in the plan.
 

jerrystratton

Registered
Joined
Mar 12, 2014
Messages
1
Reaction score
0
I've looked through the FAQs on copyright, and most of my questions were answered, but a few linger.

Poor man's copyright (mailing a copy of your ms to yourself) has been debunked all over the internet. E-mailing a copy to yourself hasn't been discussed as much. Would this have any value in defending your copyright?
It seems to more reliably prove the date associated with the content. Although e-mail headers can be forged, if necessary you could obtain records from your e-mail provider that their servers handled the message on that date.

Emailing it to yourself won't matter. You can edit your email headers. You can change the date on your computer to make the edits not look after-the-fact. You can easily modify the timestamp on any file.

Your email provider will not provide any such documents unless the lawyer you hired, for far more than the cost of registering the document, convinces a court to subpoena them. But, even then, I suspect that quite a few email providers deliberately cycle such records away in order to avoid the hassle of dealing with lawyers.

And even if they do give you a mailservlr record, you're not likely to get a record that helps you. You'll be lucky if the record even contains the subject of the message. Most likely all the record will contain is that someone claiming to be you sent a message on such-and-such timestamp, and it was x bytes of data. It may also contain the IP address you sent it from, but that is not even likely to be your current IP address.

You could email it to a notary or some similar service, but that will cost money, too. You could email it to your friends, but they're your friends, and can be expected to lie for you.

Also, does date matter at all?

Yes, the date does matter, but without a registration already in place you'll need very good lawyers to argue it. Without registration, it's up to you to prove that you wrote it by such-and-such date (and you still have to have registration for it to matter).
 

Cyia

Rewriting My Destiny
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 15, 2008
Messages
18,619
Reaction score
4,032
Location
Brillig in the slithy toves...
All registration does is potentially help you recoup losses. Copyright already exists by virtue of you writing the original, and it already belongs to you.

Publishers will register the copyright for you - and it's still yours - because they don't want anyone else to have the right to make copies of the book they're selling.
 

shaldna

The cake is a lie. But still cake.
Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 12, 2009
Messages
7,485
Reaction score
897
Location
Belfast
And so what you're saying is there are people who have taken the time and trouble to mail envelopes to themselves, with the intention of waiting until someone 'steals' their work, so they can insert the appropriate manuscript, reseal it, and then attempt to prove copyright infringement?

It would be far easier for me to believe that the envelope was never opened, it was properly sealed in the first place, and the contents are the same now as they were when first stamped.

It might be easier to believe, but that's not how it works. Facts andevidence and flaws all have to betaken into consideration, and the fact is that mailing your MS in a sealed envelope has too many flaws and potential points of interception, interference and contamination for it to be accepted as a proof of creation.

You could email it to yourself - I do this to allow myself to beable to work even if i dont have my flash drive with me, but whether that stands up as evidence i couldn't say.

Just keep everything and don't worry about it - no one is interested in stealing an unpublished MS - most plagiarism is from already published works.
 

Dave Williams

Zappa isn't frank!
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 26, 2014
Messages
226
Reaction score
18
First, someone has to steal your manuscript and try to make some money off publishing/selling it and that just ain't going to happen because for a thief there are thousands of other things that are far more worth stealing and more quickly converted into easy cash for far less work, no expense, and little or no effort.

Ripping off anything electronic is trivially easy; I've seen pieces of my own work on various sites, with someone else's name on it (with a copyright notice!) and a "hit the tipjar" button. It's no real use trying to go after them; even if you get a takedown order, they'll just pop back up on a server somewhere else.

I once got a cease-and-desist notice from a "law firm" accusing me of stealing one of those articles. I wrote a nice letter back, but got no reply, of course...

Back in... maybe 1987, I sent an article off to a magazine I'd sold to before. A few months later it duly appeared... under someone else's name. There was a management shakeup around that time, maybe it was an honest mistake, but I never got paid, or even acknowledgement that they'd messed up.

So, yeah, it *can* happen... but you have to view it like stores view "inventory shrinkage". Unless it's something big, your time is best used working on something new to sell.
 

robjvargas

Rob J. Vargas
Banned
Joined
Dec 9, 2011
Messages
6,543
Reaction score
511
Dave, it may not stop the piracy/plagiarism, but I believe that, like with trademark, an undefended copyright is a lost copyright. It's probably worth the effort in that regard.

If, that is, I'm correct. I'm not sure that I am.
 

Old Hack

Such a nasty woman
Super Moderator
Absolute Sage
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jun 12, 2005
Messages
22,454
Reaction score
4,956
Location
In chaos
Dave, it may not stop the piracy/plagiarism, but I believe that, like with trademark, an undefended copyright is a lost copyright. It's probably worth the effort in that regard.

What do you mean by this, rob? Are you saying we should all register our copyrights in order to somehow defend them?
 

Bufty

Where have the last ten years gone?
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 9, 2005
Messages
16,768
Reaction score
4,663
Location
Scotland
I didn't view it that way, Old Hack. I took rob's comment as an observation that he felt the poster should consider taking some follow-up action against the perpetrators instead of shrugging and ignoring the issue.

What do you mean by this, rob? Are you saying we should all register our copyrights in order to somehow defend them?
 
Last edited:

Old Hack

Such a nasty woman
Super Moderator
Absolute Sage
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jun 12, 2005
Messages
22,454
Reaction score
4,956
Location
In chaos
I wasn't sure which one it was, Bufty, which is why I asked for confirmation. It's always good to be clear.
 

morngnstar

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 9, 2014
Messages
2,271
Reaction score
297
Dave, it may not stop the piracy/plagiarism, but I believe that, like with trademark, an undefended copyright is a lost copyright. It's probably worth the effort in that regard.

If, that is, I'm correct. I'm not sure that I am.

IANAL, but I think that applies to trademarks, not copyrights or patents.