Do I still query?

Waffles · May 20, 2012

Just got back from a writer's conference. On Saturday, I pitched to an agent who liked my premise and requested a synopsis and three chapters. Yay! Then today she read my first chapter in a workshop and didn't like it at all. She stopped reading after the first sentence. So...not so much yay.

Obviously, I can't send her that. Do I revise the opening, send it, and hope she doesn't recognize it as the clunker she so despised earlier? Do I revise and mention that I've done so based on her critique? Do I just quietly go away and try, try again?

The thing is - I am not even sure if my opening is truly bad or just not to her taste. If I learned one thing at this conference, it's that everything is subjective. There were many times agents would give conflicting advice or conflicting opinions over anonymously submitted queries and first pages. I pitched to three agents and got three very different responses to my premise, plot, voice, main characters....

It's just very hard to know if the problem is the manuscript or the problem is finding the right agent.

Drachen Jager · May 20, 2012

I don't know. Any agent who would reject something based on the very first line is a bit scary if you ask me. Unless the line is absolutely terrible I suppose.

If you do send it you might consider revising the first line, wouldn't be much point in sending it otherwise.

I often think Agents would represent the exact same manuscript they reject after one page if only they'd been in a different mood when they picked it up. I think it's nearly impossible for someone whose social life depends on quick rejections to give everything that's just 'good' a fair chance to show them that it's actually great and just takes a few pages to get going.

Once! · May 21, 2012

I used to think that agents were nasty, heartless, fickle creatures. They almost seem to boast that they can reject someone after reading just one sentence or from a couple of paras of the query letter. We've sunk all our hopes and efforts into a work ... and they damn it within a few seconds. It's cruel and unfair.

It almost as if ... "You lost me at 'hello'...."

But then I started reading lots and lots of query letters and first chapters in SYW. And a strange thing happened. I found that I was doing it too. I was forming an opinion based on the first paragraph or so, sometimes even just the title. And the more I do it, the more accurate I seem to be getting. I can generally tell quite quickly if something is going to be good or not (and various shades in between). Judging by the other crits, it seems quite a common thing to be able to do.

And I suppose that's not really surprising. Your title, first paragraph and your query letter are the things that people will see first. So you would expect that the author would put the maximum effort into those parts of their work. And if those parts aren't very good, what does it say about the rest?

Agents and publishers are subjective. One can absolutely detest a work that the next one adores. As writers, we probably all have this mental store of stories about famous authors who were rejected a thousand times before fame and fortune came a-knocking. So we shouldn't take any one agent's opinions as the final word.

But they do see a lot more mss than we do. They see the good, the bad and the ugly. And they see what publishers accept and what they turn down.

The bottom line is probably this ... is your work ready to be shown to agents or does it need more work? Did she dislike your first sentence because it's not a good first sentence, or is the rest like that too?

When you get to 50 posts, why not put some of your stuff in SYW? That will give you a second or third opinion. And to get to 50 posts, why not try your hand at crits on other people's stuff? That might give you an insight into the question that all writers struggle with "Is my stuff good enough to be published?"

taylormillgirl · May 21, 2012

I absolutely reject based on the opening sentences, as do many bookstore patrons. How many times have you picked up a book, scanned the opening, and then returned it to the shelf because it didn't grab you?

I agree with the previous poster that you should take a step back and share your work before you query. I sat on a panel at RT and helped judge entries in an "opening pages" contest similar to the one you participated in, and to be honest, 90% of them weren't ready for the query stage.

Waffles · May 21, 2012

I have shared my work (just not here). I belong to a local critique group. Her comment about the first line was that it was boring, and didn't tell her anything about the main character, or clearly indicate that it was a mystery.

I'm not insulted or anything - I get that it's not personal, it's her job and agents get too many queries to give each one more than a few seconds to grab her.

I'm just more confused than anything. Boring I can work on. I understood her point there. The second part - the first line establishing that it's a mystery - is slightly more challenging. I am thinking of all the mysteries I read and their first lines but it's hard to "un-know" that it's a mystery and look at that objectively! There's one I love, by Julie Kramer: "My past sold quickly despite the down market." I think that's a great opening line, but it doesn't scream mystery to me.

Obviously, I could move the discovery of the dead body up to the first line (it happens in the first chapter so that wouldn't be too hard).

The last two posts seem to be answering my questions with "don't send it" - and I'm sure with all the people who pitched to the agent over the weekend, she won't notice that the requested chapters never came. I just wonder if I'm wasting the opportunity. What she liked was my premise, felt I had a unique twist on a standard plot, and my voice. It seems reasonable that she'd still like those things in a few weeks or months or however long it takes me to go over my mss with her notes from the workshop in mind.

edited to add:

Your title, first paragraph and your query letter are the things that people will see first. So you would expect that the author would put the maximum effort into those parts of their work. And if those parts aren't very good, what does it say about the rest?

See, here's another example of contradictory advice I've heard. I've read in multiple places that we shouldn't agonize over the title, because the publisher (if it ever gets that far) will probably change it anyway, or at least they have final say so don't get too attached to the one you've picked.

This weekend I received so much conflicting advice. A first mss should be 60K to 80K. No, it should be 90K to 120K. That's quite a range! My book is either just right or way too short! It just makes me want to bang my head against a wall a little bit.

MKrys · May 21, 2012

Drachen Jager said:
I don't know. Any agent who would reject something based on the very first line is a bit scary if you ask me. Unless the line is absolutely terrible I suppose.
QUOTE]
That's pretty much what I was thinking. First couple lines, sure, but to reject after the very first one?

Yāoguài · May 21, 2012

Once! said:
But then I started reading lots and lots of query letters and first chapters in SYW. And a strange thing happened. I found that I was doing it too. I was forming an opinion based on the first paragraph or so, sometimes even just the title. And the more I do it, the more accurate I seem to be getting.

And I suppose that's not really surprising. Your title, first paragraph and your query letter are the things that people will see first. So you would expect that the author would put the maximum effort into those parts of their work. And if those parts aren't very good, what does it say about the rest?

But they do see a lot more mss than we do. They see the good, the bad and the ugly. And they see what publishers accept and what they turn down.

Recently I read an interview with an agent, and the agent included a query letter he considered fantastic. And it was fantastic.

But I had read the book. And it was awful.

Every part of it fulfilled an agent's checklist: snappy title, strong hook, exciting opening, high concept, author credentials related to the subject matter. But it didn't fulfill any part of a reader's checklist: are the characters likeable? Are the characters memorable? Is the climax fulfilling? Are there powerful scenes and images along the way? Are there clever twists that actually make sense? does it raise intriguing themes and explore them through a series of intelligent storytelling questions? and on and on.

As a reader I've reached a point where an exciting first scene will make me put the book back on the shelf. That scene means one of two things: either it's the best scene in the book and the pages that follow are slow tedium that never again live up to the opening, or the entire book is made of peaks strung together without any emotional engagement.

If I read the back cover and see that the book has a high concept tied to the author's professional experience, the book goes back on the shelf. "Stage magician Alejandro Kapowski has been recruited by the CIA to use his sleight-of-hand to steal a terrifying bio-weapon from terrorists. The author performed magic tricks in order to pay his way through his ph.d. in bio-weaponeering."

Agents and publishers are looking for books that people will BUY. Readers are looking for books that they will LOVE. And there's very little crossover between those two. I tend to read six or more books in a week, and I often feel like I was tricked into reading worthless stories. And what agents tend to want are essentially ways to trick readers into buying books regardless of their quality.

wheelwriter · May 21, 2012

Waffles said:
Just got back from a writer's conference. On Saturday, I pitched to an agent who liked my premise and requested a synopsis and three chapters. Yay! Then today she read my first chapter in a workshop and didn't like it at all. She stopped reading after the first sentence. So...not so much yay.

Obviously, I can't send her that. Do I revise the opening, send it, and hope she doesn't recognize it as the clunker she so despised earlier? Do I revise and mention that I've done so based on her critique? Do I just quietly go away and try, try again?

The thing is - I am not even sure if my opening is truly bad or just not to her taste. If I learned one thing at this conference, it's that everything is subjective. There were many times agents would give conflicting advice or conflicting opinions over anonymously submitted queries and first pages. I pitched to three agents and got three very different responses to my premise, plot, voice, main characters....

It's just very hard to know if the problem is the manuscript or the problem is finding the right agent.

I'd send her what she requested. I'd start with a reminder that you met at the conference and she requested the first three chapters and a synopsis. Before sending it out, take a hard look at your first chapter and make sure it is as strong as you can make it (And make sure the manuscript is ready. If not, hold off until it's ready, then send it.). If you send it and get a rejection, it's a rejection. If you don't send it, you'll never know, but it won't be an acceptance! I don't see the harm in sending it. I agree that it would be a wasted opportunity.

VanessaNorth · May 21, 2012

Yāoguài;7292181 said:
Recently I read an interview with an agent, and the agent included a query letter he considered fantastic. And it was fantastic.

But I had read the book. And it was awful.

Every part of it fulfilled an agent's checklist: snappy title, strong hook, exciting opening, high concept, author credentials related to the subject matter. But it didn't fulfill any part of a reader's checklist: are the characters likeable? Are the characters memorable? Is the climax fulfilling? Are there powerful scenes and images along the way? Are there clever twists that actually make sense? does it raise intriguing themes and explore them through a series of intelligent storytelling questions? and on and on.

As a reader I've reached a point where an exciting first scene will make me put the book back on the shelf. That scene means one of two things: either it's the best scene in the book and the pages that follow are slow tedium that never again live up to the opening, or the entire book is made of peaks strung together without any emotional engagement.

If I read the back cover and see that the book has a high concept tied to the author's professional experience, the book goes back on the shelf. "Stage magician Alejandro Kapowski has been recruited by the CIA to use his sleight-of-hand to steal a terrifying bio-weapon from terrorists. The author performed magic tricks in order to pay his way through his ph.d. in bio-weaponeering."

Agents and publishers are looking for books that people will BUY. Readers are looking for books that they will LOVE. And there's very little crossover between those two. I tend to read six or more books in a week, and I often feel like I was tricked into reading worthless stories. And what agents tend to want are essentially ways to trick readers into buying books regardless of their quality.

Oh, this sounds all a bit jaded.

Not everyone likes the same books. Publishing is highly subjective.

I don't think agents want to trick readers into buying books regardless of quality.

I think agents want books that are good AND have a great hook to sell to readers.

If you have no hook, you could have written a masterpiece and no one will care because they can't sell it if you can't sell it.

Writing a query, pitching a book, is sales. That's what it is. Yes, you should have something worth reading to deliver before you start querying/pitching.

Being able to explain WHY it's worth reading isn't "tricking" anyone. It's selling the damn book.

VanessaNorth · May 21, 2012

Just realized, I never answered the OP.

Yes, query--other agents though.

Determination · May 21, 2012

Send it! Don't waste an opportunity for an agent to read your work. Don't mention the fact that she didn't like the first sentence, and I'd consider changing it just in case it does ring a bell. Just send it as requested material and say that you were pleased to meet her at the conference blah, blah, blah. Chances are, with all the other writers she met at the conference, she won't remember you anyway.

Susan Coffin · May 21, 2012

I would certainly continue the query process, but I would not send it to that agent again.

The thing is, the first line has to grab, then the second, third and so that we love what we are reading. They don't have to be brilliant prose, but they do have to hook us.

Drachen Jager · May 21, 2012

I've seen more and more books appearing on shelves (especially in YA) with fantastic-amazing openings, but by 1/3 of the way in they're pretty much standard fare, and by the third or fourth book in the series they've lost me entirely. I think this is a symptom of Agentitis (that disease where an author's success is predicated entirely on the first 1/3 of their first novel).

I don't think it's healthy, and I don't think it means the best books get published.

Yāoguài · May 21, 2012

Drachen Jager said:
I've seen more and more books appearing on shelves (especially in YA) with fantastic-amazing openings, but by 1/3 of the way in they're pretty much standard fare, and by the third or fourth book in the series they've lost me entirely. I think this is a symptom of Agentitis (that disease where an author's success is predicated entirely on the first 1/3 of their first novel).

I don't think it's healthy, and I don't think it means the best books get published.

Hear, hear.

That's what I said, only more succinct.

Smiley0501 · May 21, 2012

taylormillgirl said:
I absolutely reject based on the opening sentences, as do many bookstore patrons. How many times have you picked up a book, scanned the opening, and then returned it to the shelf because it didn't grab you?

This.

And I would also continue querying without a doubt. Don't let this one agent stop you. I've submitted to so many agents who I thought would love my book & want to rep it, to find that they rejected it ASAP. What someone else doesn't like, someone else might love.
Good luck!

Jamesaritchie · May 21, 2012

Trust me on this. First lines are often all any agent or editor needs to make a rejection. When the first line is this bad, the novel does NOT get better.

If it takes you a few pages, or a few chapters, to get going, you ain't gonna get going.

The first page is the most important page in the novel, and if you can't keep an agent or editor reading there, why on earth would anyone believe it's going to get better? If the most important page in the novel is this bad, experience shows they're probably all this bad. Every agent and editor I know starts the guard swearing they'll give every manuscript a fair chance, read far enough in to be sure they aren't passing on a great book. So they do just this for a month or three, and quickly learn that bad first pages mean bad rest of the manuscript just about every last time.

It has nothing to do with agentitis, it has to do with poor writing, and lousy manuscripts. Juts because this book or that one may start off great and trail off later means nothing. Most are reading it, or it wouldn't be selling. At any rathe, a book that has a horrible first line, or a horrible first page, is a book what won't be read, and shouldn't be read.

It isn't like the need for a good first page is a closely guarded secret. Manuscripts always have needed a good first page. Writers know this, and if the writer can't pull off a good first page, he sure as hell can't pull off a good full manuscript.

Waffles · May 21, 2012

Trust me on this. First lines are often all any agent or editor needs to make a rejection. When the first line is this bad, the novel does NOT get better.

I'm not disagreeing with that. I'm not arguing that the line wasn't bad. I don't think it was "MY EYES MY EYES BURN THIS MONSTROSITY", but I think it was weak.

After reviewing everything from this agent's class and critiques, I lopped off the first three paragraphs and opened with the protagonist discovering the body (which she does when she skis off course and crashes into a tree.) I think it's a much stronger opening.

I just don't know whether to query this same agent - who liked my premise and my voice and now I've changed the thing she didn't like - or not. And if I do query her, do I say "I made changes based on your critique" or just hope she doesn't remember me (which considering how many people she talked to is entirely possible.)

I would LOVE to work with this agent, and she did express interest in the mss, so I'm inclined to query - AFTER I've gone over the whole mss another time or two with her very helpful class tips in mind.

wheelwriter · May 21, 2012

Waffles said:
I just don't know whether to query this same agent - who liked my premise and my voice and now I've changed the thing she didn't like - or not. And if I do query her, do I say "I made changes based on your critique" or just hope she doesn't remember me (which considering how many people she talked to is entirely possible.)

I would LOVE to work with this agent, and she did express interest in the mss, so I'm inclined to query - AFTER I've gone over the whole mss another time or two with her very helpful class tips in mind.

I don't understand why you wouldn't query this agent. Maybe I'm missing something. She asked for the first three chapters and a synopsis. When your book is ready, why not send her what she asked for? My feeling is - what do you have to lose? Let her reject or accept the manuscript. Don't reject it yourself.

Make sure you mention in the query that you met her at the conference and this is what she requested. I wouldn't mention her other critique, personally, but I doubt it would hurt if you said you made changes based on her suggestions. I think it's okay either way. We obsess over these things, but the agent just wants a manuscript she can sell. It's possible she looks at a manuscript in a different light during a workshop, where her goal may be to help writers strengthen their manuscript, than when she is reading requested material.

Do I still query?

Waffles

Drachen Jager

Professor of applied misanthropy

Once!

Still confused by shoelaces

taylormillgirl

Hopeless Romantic

Waffles

MKrys

Quietly obsessing

Yāoguài

Strange Monster

wheelwriter

Not a runner, running.

VanessaNorth

Purple hair, not prose.

VanessaNorth

Purple hair, not prose.

Determination

Is watching you

Susan Coffin

Tell it like it Is

Drachen Jager

Professor of applied misanthropy

Yāoguài

Strange Monster

Smiley0501

Lurker, now activated. :-)

Jamesaritchie

Waffles

wheelwriter

Not a runner, running.